Lots of bass at walls, lack of bass in center of room/listening position
Hi OP, Here's my blog on how well a 2-way can function in a small room, with room treatment. https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2020/01/the-snr-1-room-response-and-roon.html Best, E |
Your room is absolutly unique regarding the positioning and integration of a subwoofer/s. Other people's dimensions and locations, even if they're identical or similar, will require a great deal of trial and mostly error. If you locate a sub at the listening position by using long enough interconnects (Monoprice or Bluejeans Cable) and an extension power cord while playing low frequency tone/s will allow you to walk (or crawl) around your room and map out YOUR rooms modes and nulls. This test tone download should be useful https://realtraps.com/test-cd.htm This method is simple and need only be done one time. Once you've mapped YOUR room you can experiment by placing your sub/s at or very near the mode (louder bass) areas. I found multiple subwoofers evened out my rooms modes. Controlling the subwoofers frequency response is a product of equalization and room treatment (Eric's blog). No amount of subwoofers can control frequency. While using four large subs I found equalization absolutly made such a desirable improvement I found two small subs to be sufficient. Then again, along with personal taste every room is unique. This is well worth the effort good luck with it. |
Absolutely. Notice my system https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 There's a 12" isobaric Talon Roc sub in the front left corner, two sealed 10" subs towards the front on the left and right, and two 10" ported subs in the back along the L and R walls. Each sub is near the wall but they are all different distances from the corners. The response of each of these subs is different, and the locations are different, and they even are adjusted somewhat differently. The Talon is powered and so its independent. The left two are on one Dayton amp, the right two on another. Left and right are close but not identical in level. Or phase. All this asymmetry would be a nightmare for the mains, but is actually what you want with subs. All the slightly different responses produce different modes, in different places, and at different levels. Placement becomes a whole lot easier with more subs. With just one you have one or two nasty humps to figure out. With four each one plays at a lot lower level so the humps are much smaller, and you can put them just about anywhere you want. I tried a lot of different things because it mattered so much with just the one. But with five I find it hardly matters at all. Hook em all up, you will see. |
Right now they are about 10 inches off the wall and they probably need to be moved out more.@smodtactical If your bass is rolled off, you're usually better off moving the speaker closer to the wall behind it. This is particularly true in the case of a sub- as it gets closer to the wall, the boundary effects start to come into play. So the bass goes up not down. But standing waves will also be more pronounced, so you should try the sub pointed in different directions, with different phase and in different locations along the wall if you can. The right spot might only be a few inches wide so if you're playing with a single sub this requires patience! |
That is so fascinating using all different kinds of subwoofers. Is there any downsides to this? Do they have different speed or timbre?Speed or timbre. With a sub. Good one. Guess you missed the part above where I said: human beings cannot even hear low bass at all, at less than a full wave. So for proof, my first sub was a ported isobaric Talon Roc. Isobaric is two drivers mounted back to back so one removes the air pressure from the back of the other one helping it move faster. Because the Talon Khorus uses the same isobaric design and so of course the bass has to be "fast" to match. This is the way they think. This way of thinking is baloney. My DBA with sealed and ported, and none of the drivers as massively powerful as the one in the Roc, is way better. It sounds faster, more tuneful and articulate, in spite of what looks on paper as if it would have to be much worse. You have to get out of the trap of thinking of low bass the way we think of midrange and treble. They are both waves and the physics is the same but the way we hear them is quite a bit different. Like, midrange we can pinpoint the source in 3D space. Low bass we cannot localize at all. Treble and midrange we can hear a millisecond blip. Low bass we cannot hear less than a full wave. At all. That's like 50ms. Midrange we are very sensitive to volume and hear volume changes accurately. Low bass we hardly hear at all until it gets quite loud (hence the Loudness switch), and then once it does we are overly sensitive to volume. What all this adds up to is with midrange and up we need two and only two perfectly matched speakers placed precisely symmetrical to create a 3D soundstage- but we can use a whole bunch of subs of all kinds and put them just about anywhere and yet they will integrate perfectly into that 3D sound stage. |
The best success I have had is using the Vandersteen speaker placement calculations for the main speakers. This is available on their website. I have two subs. I have 11 acoustic panels, diffusers and traps. I can walk around my room and the music sounds good. It was not that way at all previously. Several peaks and nulls. Good luck. |
AHA !!! If these are the original NS 5000 I strongly suggest you get Troel's crossover upgrades: Everything I was complaining about in your measurements (except for the choppy HF) is fixed here. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Yamaha-NS1000.htm Otherwise, DSP is a necessary option. If you don't want to do the EQ yourself, Anthem makes a pre and integrated that will do it for you and integrate your sub. Best, E |
If you're thinking about Acoustic Panels, you should consider making them yourself. The Rockwool Comfortboard 80 from Home Depot is as good as anything out there and it's only $58 for 6 pieces. It's very rigid, so you don't need to treat it at all. Check out the Acoustical Performance here -
https://www.rockwool.com/products/comfortboard-80/?selectedCat=comfortboard%E2%84%A2%2080%20downloads#Specifications&Sizes For Bass Traps, just double up with 2 pieces for 3". All you need to do is build a wooded frame, add the Comfortboard 80, and staple some Guildford of Maine FR701 cloth on it (about 5yds), which you can order from Duvaltex in Quebec. I added Cambric dust collection fabric to keep any loose particles intact, which is very cheap to buy (use 3M 77 spray adhesive to glue it on over the Comfortboard 80). Anything you buy won't be better than making your own. |
AHA !!! If these are the original NS 5000 I strongly suggest you get Troel’s crossover upgrades: Everything I was complaining about in your measurements (except for the choppy HF) is fixed here. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Yamaha-NS1000.htm Otherwise, DSP is a necessary option. If you don’t want to do the EQ yourself, Anthem makes a pre and integrated that will do it for you and integrate your sub. Best, E He has NS5000... not NS1000... how did you make that mistake? |
@golfnutz Ya I think making them myself makes sense, can save a ton of cash. I wonder if I can order the wood pieces cut to precise size via home depot and have them delivered or something with the rockwool. And just order the fabric as you said, awesome plan. So then I just nail everything together and staple? Just curious I heard some people using this special denim material that is a bit safer? Any thoughts on that? @erik_squires Appreciate it man but ya I think NS5K is a totally different speaker. |
Yeah, I saw the recycled denim stuff, but it didn’t appeal to me. It just didn’t look rigid enough for what I wanted. Actually, I glued, then used a brad nailer to secure the frame. Using glue and finishing nails would work if you don’t have a compressor. Don’t overlook the Cambric material and 3M adhesive spray. It makes a difference. You’ll save money by not having to cover the back of the panels with Guildford of Maine cloth. I wrapped the entire batt with it (cambric material). You could see if Home depot will cut to size and deliver, but you need to order the right wood. If you go there yourself, you can pick the best pieces (straightest, and less knots). They’ll cut it for you there as well. Something like this for the walls or ceiling (lumber edges are rounded and smooth): https://www.homedepot.ca/product/thd-generic-1x2x8-framing-lumber/1000173739 For 3" for Bass traps you could use this: https://www.homedepot.ca/product/thd-generic-1x4x8-millstead-spf-sdry/1000100188 You’ll probably want some D-rings for hanging them. Each panel will weigh almost 10 lbs (over 20 lbs for Bass traps), so I used these - https://www.homedepot.ca/product/ook-large-2-hole-d-ring-hangers-value-pack-10pcs/1001027224 |
@Smodtactical, I suggest you purchase a Minidsp. You have already invested a significant amount in your system. The Non-Hd version of the Minidsp is $100. The HD version of the Minidsp is even better and can do more. It appears you are using REW and that is a good thing. REW will generate equalization filters specifically for the Minidsp. You then load them into the system via computer. There are videos on the web to guide you through the process. There is a learning curve to all of this. You are getting many suggestions all with good intentions. The bottom line is you have to experiment and learn as you go. Don't give up, and have fun on the journey. |
@smodtactical, I have been down your path many times over the years. Experiment, experiment, and learn from others for sure. So many factors play into getting good bass response, and as others have mentioned, normally, it’s complicated to get even bass distribution throughout the room with room modes playing with your ideal settings and affecting the listening quality. I have learned to use the Velodyne SMS1 Sub EQ for my sub integration needs. Well, lately, not much at all due to my new Classic Audio Loudspekers T1.5, which is in another post. Anyway, here are some views of my smoothing progress as measured at the center of the room, which is the new listening position with my giant speakers. You can see the initial response and after response. Playing with different frequencies, phase, etc., and given time, you will get a smoother plot. https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/rP9gxID-Ts6SZNr4AwftqA.NFFn8vgXexCg9g-SaViCMW But, and I say this, do you really want a smooth bass plot? It’s sort of a rhetorical question, but if you want excited bass at let’s say, 50hz, you may want to visualize what it will sound like for you, in your room, with your equipment. I think smooth bass is okay for critical listening if your speakers need it, but not all speakers need extra bass. But yes, if they do, then add subs to help augment that portion of the musical spectrum that your speakers can’t reproduce. I find myself using subs less now that I have speakers with 18” downward firing bass, and 15” front firing bass. The room is a major component of your audio system. If you can, spend money on room infrastructure things such as sound insulation (Roxul safe and sound) in the walls, Quietrock sheet rock, anything that will assist with noise abatement that will inhibit noise and bass from leaving The room will greatly benefit your listening pleasure and bring peace to your family who do not want to listen to Aerosmith at 100db with a 50hz bass bump to feel the kick of the drum. I spot treated with absorbers, diffusion as needed after I listened and measured the room to suit my needs. Good luck on your journey. |
I had an issue with my room few years ago, bass was not filling up around my sitting area. Tried many ways to get them filled up by moving sitting position, speaker placement and I was even contemplating of getting a sub in. After I was introduced by Micahel Green with his Room Tune pillows and consulting him I did some placements of his room tune pillows in my room and finally presto bass is now more around my sitting position. Eventhough I'm not getting super low notes as I'm using bookshelf speakers but it was night and day improvement for me. |
Hey just made a discovery. Just played around with the roon dsp, i hit invert on my left channel, and all of a sudden the bass came out of nowhere, was focused, intense and powerful and evenly distributed as I lean left and right. When you turn invert off on the left it weakens and becomes much more diffuse. So maybe i have something wired incorrectly? Only thing is if i leave invert on, i sometimes get some popping and crackling so sounds on the inverted channel. |
i’ve had the EXACT same issue w huge dip at 80-100hz by mandated listening position. completely solved w a smaller driver(very fast) sub. The b&w db1 is a true system changer. it will play at 80-90hz without any detection issues. i place it just inside left speaker. it has several phase choices which are very easy to hear allowing perfect match w mains. in my room 270 degrees is the correct setting for me. neither 0 or 180 worked well. try it as you will be overwhelmed at the seamless integration. |
