Looking for Tonearm Advice/Suggestions

I think that Jelco of yours is a fine arm and the 4P9 is even better and not adding a sound to the equation. I have had both in my system. I am currently using a Lyra Etna SL on my 4P9. Clarity is what you should be sensing compared to the Jelco. Lyra carts are sensitive to VTA, VTF and Zenith so as Raul suggests, make sure the arm and cartridge are mounted correctly. You should be very pleased with the improvement here compared to the Jelco. If you hear something off, then I suspect its not the arm, its the setup.

@sounds_real_audio 

Thank you very much. 

I really appreciate everyone’s commentary. Even when opinions and suggestions wildly diverge I find them very interesting and helpful.

Puppyt

Tube friendly speaker often have fewer drivers, ie. not two or more woofers.

They would typically be 8 ohms. John Devore does a nice presentation on YouTube I believe about this.

They tend not to brag about having deep bass. 

Having said this I am not a fan of compression horn tweeters. Many actually serve as the midrange as well, dropping to 1.5 kHz. For me good midrange is fast and cohesive with the bass, 

When I was in business I attended the RMAF in Denver. Here are some reviews of my room at the show. 

“Though I've heard the Wilson-Benesch Curve floorstanders many times before, I found that they sounded spectacularly good as driven by Kara Chaffee's amazing deHavilland tube electronics . Nothing I heard at RMAF, save perhaps for the far more expensive Vandersteen/ARC system, could touch this rig for sheer midrange purity, detail, three-dimensionality ."  Chris Martens TAS on the 2009 show.

"deHavilland Electonics with Wilson Bensch speakers, the room we revisited most. Sound to die for." John Zurek from positive-feedback.com

@puppyt  : 4ohm is only the nominal speaker impedance but that models goes down that 4ohm in some frequency ranges and over 4ohm too. Other trouble is that its sensitivity is very low at 86db.

As I said before and as many Dynaudio speaker reviewers attested the best to handle for the very good speakers shines needs SS amp.

R.

@sounds_real_audio 

Also, the Contour S 3.4LE is a 4 ohm speaker is it not?

@sounds_real_audio 

I’m curious, what speakers or speaker brands do you characterize as tube friendly?

With your new tonearm you are hearing so much more music. 

My thoughts are that your speakers are not serving you well. Too edgy perhaps. Not sure why companies even make speakers that are 3 ohms. With your new table/arm combo, see if you can take a listen to some tube friendly speakers. Think you would fall in love with the music again. 

@rauliruegas 

Thank you for your perspective. Much appreciated

Dear @puppyt  : I do love too the Dynaudio speakers and listened sevral times and different models and one of the last Dyna I heard was paired by the JC 1 amplifier: just glorious, it puts you nearer to the recording.

" To my ears the combination has provided a warmer, richer sound. "

Good that those is what you like it but live MUSIC seat at nearfield position is everything but warmer. MUSIC could be brigth or even harsh depending on the scores but not warmer.

I think that you own to many tubes in your system and that's why you are accustomed to.

Btw, each cartridge has its own signature that depending of the tonearm/wires paired that signature is modulated changing a little it own " color ".

R.

@puppyt As we are sharing information based on the impact a New Addition TA has had, when used in conjunction with a Cart' that has a combined purchase cost of approx' $5.5K. I was correctly/incorrectly assuming the Set Up for the Geometry and chosen Tracking Force were already dealt with.

Additionally, It is a concern that after a couple of responses to your Update Post, there is information offered that has contributed to manifestation of a developing idea, that maybe your TA and Cart' choice are not correct, and a change is required. 

Firstly, If you are not absolutely sure you have produced the best Geometry and Tracking Force, this can be done with immediacy and the most cheaply by using the eye to see if anything looks amiss. If absolute accuracy is wanted then the costs can increase to acquire the ancillaries to aid this task. Extreme Cautiousness is required, the fragile Cart's demands this, this end result of this as a method can easily become a very expensive activity if a unwanted mistake is made.

If a revisit to alignment is to happen, do remember there are individuals who prefer a Tweaked alignment, it lens itself more to their preferences. A tweaked to the VTA, are commonly done as the following tweaks:

'Heel Down' is sometimes selected for adding to the Sense of Weight/Dulling, where as Toe Down as a tweak is seen to add to the Steeliness/Brightness. 

I have seen these produced to the extreme that the eye can easily detect the angle produced, but have no knowledge of how such a excess impacts on the Sonic produced.

As I am with a History of being very social as a participant in this Pass Time/ Hobby I have been fortunate to have built friendships, and this has lead on to the invites to Demo's of devices and loaning/being loaned devices.

I have been demo'd numerous Phon's produced as Valve Input/Output, Valve Hybrid and SS Designs, as well as having owned all three designs of which the Valve Types still remain in use. Included in these experiences has been the introduction to a large range of SUT's, I have experienced enough from these to have a good handle on what they bring to the party, and have adopted the use of Two Winding Designs for my own usage, and feel quite confident another Brands Model which has thoroughly impressed and is with a USP of using a nano-crystalline core, will be added to my system in the not too distant future. 

As for Valves I have a friend who is a Second Generation Tube Collector with the inheritance of a family members extensive collection at hand. This individual has been extremely kind to the Local Hifi Group Members and has on occasions made available a broad range of Tubes from 70 Years to 40 Years Vintage as perfect matched pairs and quads to assist with Tube Rolling experiences on certain devices.

 I am sure a Home Trial of a few SUT's  can be achieved and maybe only incur a minimum cost if not wanted to be kept, the outlay will be well worth the experience gained.

As I sense you are interested in what a exchange of 6922's might create, the following might be useful if you look at Older Valve Models.

Note: A tested Brand New Matched Pair of Genalex Gold Lions had one Tube that the Valve Tester advised not to be used, even though it would produce a sound the measurements produced were a worry to the Valve Tester. 

The Older Tubes can prove to be a more awkward experience, but if carefully approached has proven for me to have a very successful experience as the outcome.

Note: Putting a duffer Valve into a Circuit can be detrimental to the Circuit, it is best practice to do ones utmost to ensure the purchased item is fit for the role it is selected for. 

I have arranged with Vendors that supplied Tubes are to undergo a re-test and depending on the outcome of my friends testing of supplied tubes, if the Tubes are a close match to the Vendors supplied test figures, the Tubes will be retained. If the Tubes measure quite different and for the worse, the Tubes are returned and purchase costs refunded. I have success with vendors who are agreeing to these conditions and have also honoured accepting the returns. I make these agreements outside of relying on Ebay Buyer Support.

Note: My experiences has been that 99% of the time, if a Vendor offers measurements, showing %age of life left in a Tube and more importantly if the NOT WANTED, 'Cathode Heater Leakage' is occurring, they are usually very accurate with their info, and a measurement on a different machine has reflected this accuracy.  

Ebay is your friend on this one, as Buyers are allowed to return if not satisfied.      

In my opinion, individual pieces do make a contribution to overall sound quality, but in the end you’re listening to an ensemble of components and unless something is grossly malfunctioning it would be hard for a stranger to pick it apart and tell you exactly what’s what. First of all, we don’t know what you mean by “harsh”. And we don’t know who set up your new tonearm.

@lewm 

Thanks for this explanation. I had never heard the term “SUT” until @pindac mentioned it. I’m glad to learn about it and even more appreciative that you suggest it is not something I need. The good news is I don’t have to keep this tonearm and can return it if needed. I just need to figure out whether or not I can correct the issues I am hearing or whether I need to start over with either the tonearm, the cartridge or both. Your thoughts and those of others are very helpful in this process. 

I do have a general question for you and others. I know speakers and amplifiers have a “sound”. I am very partial to the Dynaudio sound in speakers and I have become a fan of tube amplification. To my ears the combination has provided a warmer, richer sound. I know there is a point at which the pursuit of “warmth” can overwhelm what I would term “clarity” or maybe the term is “accuracy”. I don’t think I have done that so far at least not to my ears. Up to this point every piece I have added has peeled back a layer of the onion without causing fatigue. So my general question is this, do cartridges and tonearms have a signature sound like speakers and amps have or do they simply reveal more as you move up to more expensive and expertly designed models?

I agree with Raul in that you probably ought to have first selected a new cartridge and then a tonearm that best suited your choice of cartridge. However, you have chosen a very fine tonearm that should work well with almost anything, so not much can have been lost in the bargain.  To expand on the definition of a SUT, if you really did not know, a Step Up Transformer as used in conjunction with a low output MC cartridge is for the sole purpose of increasing voltage gain.  Transformers are passive devices; the product of voltage X current at the primary will always (nearly) equal the product of voltage X current on the secondary side of the transformer.  Most commercial SUTs will provide a voltage gain of at least 10X, In other words, the signal voltage on the secondary will be increased by 10 fold over the signal voltage measured at the primary.  So if the LOMC cartridge makes 0.5mV under the standard conditions, 5mV will appear on the secondary of the SUT.  The current seen at the secondary will be reduced by 10 fold, likewise.  But you don’t care about that because you are amplifying voltage.   That said, there is no way you need a SUT in your present system.  SUTs are typically used with phono stages that were designed only for high output MM cartridges.  Such stages typically make about 40db of signal gain between input and output. That amount of gain is inadequate for a typical LOMC cartridge. Your Chanook can amplify the cartridge output by 65db, which is adequate for any LOMC down to about 0.4mV output.  Especially since your linestage adds additional gain to the signal.  The consideration of how much phono gain you need is a bit more complex than I have described but suffice to say you are OK with what you’ve got.  No SUT needed.  As to why your system sounds harsh with the Kuzma tonearm added in is anyone’s guess, but it’s probably not per se the fault of the new tonearm.

@pindac Yes, but the problem is we are all down the rabbit hole. Which cookie did you eat?

Dear @puppyt  : I can see that I'm late in your thread and you already pull the triger on the tonearm and seems to me that your first step should been to choose the new cartridge you want to own ( as the Umami Red. ) and then look for the tonearm that can match it the best inside your budget.

Anyway, maybe the Delos playing hours are to much or the cartridge/tonearm set up is not adequated yet.

You need to chek with a good protractor the cartridge/tonearm alignment and after that and trhough " test and error " process makes a fine tunning with the other cartridge set up parameters as: AZ, VTA/SRA,  VTF and the like In the other side the internal tonearm wiring is new and needs some time to settle down.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

@pindac 

Thank you. Very interesting. Much appreciated.

A SUT is a Step Up Transformer that is used in general to supply the LMOC Signal to a MM Phon' or MM Input of a MC/MM Phon'.

When used with the latter, think of it as a expansion of the sonic that can be produced.

I own both Types of Phon's referred to above and also have Two SUT's that are very regularly used with the MC/MM Phon'. Three variances to the sonic seasoning from one device.

@mulveling has put very good info on the forum about their experiences with SUT's in relation to the capability of delivering with a Rich Tone and Sonic Qualities that are preferred. 

Mullard E88CC's will be a wonderful experience, the early Late 50's - Early 60's will be even better, the -01 Affix is the Cream, but costly, the Vintage Valve Route demands Caveat Emptor as your friend. If acquired with a correct approach, the Phon' should be very capable of creating the Cheshire Cat Grin that will be permanent. 

Once the Vintage Valve is found, anxiety follows, as the want to secure a second set of Valves becomes quite controlling.  

@pindac 

Thanks for these thoughts. I definitely prefer a richer/warmer tone and the thought did cross my mind about changing tubes on the Chinook. Pardon my ignorance though, what is SUT?

Lyra's are described by users as being Transparent and some might say are on the lean side of the scale.

The new TA might be less in the way and allowing this trait of the Cart's design to be perceived as an increased presence.

What does seem to be able to add to the 'Harsh' is the 6922's in the Chinook. When Tube Rolling using perfectly matched 6922's and E88CC's, there were 6922's used that could be described as 'nails on a Chalkboard' as a comparison to other Tubes used.

The TA, may have improved the Signal Sent, which in turn is enabling the Tubes to show of more of their own sonic offerings.

If the ideal is to lean further towards a Rich Tone on the scale, a SUT and Tube exchange might become the method to achieve this.  

,

I really appreciate all of the suggestions and commentary; this is extremely helpful. I ended up getting the Kuzma 4Point9 paired with my existing Lyra Delos.I haven’t been able to put in a lot of listening hours yet but so far, to my ears, it sounds a little harsh. I’m not really conversant in all of the audiophile terminology but I would say it is revealing, maybe too much so. It seems like everything is pushed forward a bit. Not sure how to describe it. Can a tonearm be “bright” or “warm”? I do suffer from tinnitus and since introducing this tonearm it seems to have ramped up more than normal while listening.

If you're a one cartridge guy then I think it's simply how a particular tonearm/ cartridge sounds in your system. But if you in the future turn out to want or buy multiple cartridges then Tri-planar and Graham with it's changeable wand would be a less aggravating choice along with "on the fly" VTA, azimuth, damping adjustments.will make it quicker change. I guess it would be a future investment in a quicker change-over. the what I believe would be a irritating process when all you want to do is listen to how this or that cartridge would sound.

@puppyt , auditioning tonearms is not necessary. They work well or not by design. The best tonearms are still pivoted offset arms, 9", very stiff, with separate vertical and horizontal bearings arranged so that the arm is neutral (not stable) balance. Magnetic antiskate devices are superior. Avoid unipivot arms like the plague. Examples of arms I would consider buying are the Reed 2G, the Triplanar, the Zuzma 4 Point 9, the Schroder CB and the Origin live Enterprise. I personally chose the Schroder CB. There are two new arms that break all the rules. They are the Schroder LT, The Reed 5A and the Reed 5T. I am strongly considering the Schroder LT. All these arms will handily fit on your turntable and they range from $4K to $20K so as always it comes down to how much you care to spend.

I looked pretty hard at the Volare and I was going to put an OL Conqueror on it. I think any of the OL arms would be a homerun with that table but at least go up to the Encounter.

Steve thank you again. This is great stuff.

@puppyt 

@puppyt - if it helps, here’s a review I wrote about the old Series III

• Audiomods Series III (circa 2013)

Please note - my cartridge was a standard Denon DL103 with a spherical stylus and the phono stage was a $250 Cambridge Audio.

Since then...

• I had Soundsmith upgrade to a Ruby Cantilever with an Optimized Countour Contact Line stylus
  • NOTE: due to the extremely accurate setup required for this profile I would probably opt for the SHIBATA profile in future
• I upgraded the phono stage to a Simaudio Moon LP 5,3 RS
• Both made huge improvements to the level of detail and performance.
• But I believe the arm to be responsible for the amazing levels of details extracted from the goove

I would highly recommend getting the one piece harness with the KLE Innovations RCA plugs (installed by Jeff) - which will improve on detials, clarity and imaging. He may now use the lated TOTL RCA from KLE Innovations - the Perfect22 Harmony RCA

Here is my review of the Absolute Harmony RCA on my rig

• Absolute Harmony RCA (on my turntable)

I must admit that perhaps the Micrometer VTA was a frivolous expense, since I have not chaged VTA since insallation, but it is handy if you are of the mindset that VA should be optimized for each album played, OR if you change cartridges frequently.

Hope that helps with your choice

Regards - Steve

@williewonka/Steve

Really appreciate this idea. I will definitely drop Jeff a note. Thank you very much!

@puppyt - not sure if this is a good match for your setup, but it would be worth droppig Jeff at Audiomods and email and ask him about your setup. He is very helpful

• www.audiomods.co.uk

I purchased the Old Series III about 14 years ago and it worked wonders.

• the bead blas finish is exceptional it has a micrometer VTA (optional) also.

Jeff’s new arms are even better and suits a wider variety of cartridges and they have azimuth adjustment. They are also reasonably priced and perform way above their comparibly modest price. Some reviewers prefered the Audomods over other arms in the $5k region

Good luck with your quest - Steve

Do a search on this forum for tonearm suggestions. Chakster really liked vintage Japanese arms and they cost way less than some of those arms listed yet still have great performance. I'm partial to JVC UA-7045 and UA-7082 tonearms.

BillWojo

@andrehighend I find it very difficult comparing tonearms. Dealers may have different tables with different arms and different cartridges so not easy telling what is what IMO

@andrehighend 

Well said!

All above suggestions are great,but YOU should take a listen at local dealers to see if sonic differences justify the price.Good luck fellow audiophile. 

This is a belated thank you for these suggestions. Some good items for me to research.

@puppyt 

+1 @rdk777 

The Kuzma 4P (9 or 11) costs more, but definitely worth considering.  Both are end game tonearms and will work well with your table and Lyra cartridge.

Tri-planar u12 or a Graham Phantom is the most obvious.