Been through the high end maelstrom for over 30 years and although I have enjoyed the ride, I desperately want to find speakers that exude dynamics, tone and presence. I want to be transported to the Village Vanguard where The John Coltrane Quartet are performing any night I desire. I want to feel the timbre of his sax 🎷. When I close my eyes I want to be enveloped by the atmosphere of the space and awash with the impact and emotion being expressed by the musicians. I don’t want to hear what the engineers hear after they mix a recording...I want to be in the studio when the tracks are being laid down! So far, Tannoy Heritage Arden have come to my attention, Klipsch Cornwall IV’s, JBL S4700’s or perhaps Spatial Audio X3’s? Help
In the spirit of perpetual experimentation, I am getting a pair of planar magnetic ribbon super tweeters! I will boldly go where most speakers have never gone before...to 40khz and beyond 🥸
Ozzy I think we all face the diemna on this site of trusting each others ears, experience, intentions and motivations. Now we have someone like cliff that adds a whole new dimension. Is this company his friends? This is one of the few industries where you can buy 10 large worth of cotton batting and velcro from a guy with a 1980's computer program and be considered a friend. I guess I'll look at his post favorably because there is some truth to it, but I'm suspicious. :)
There's a SUPERB article in Sound and Vision written by David Ranada about why NOBODY has yet proven not only that either DVD-Audio or SACD are superior to one another, but that EITHER is (AUDIBLY) superior to regular 16 bit 44.1khz. In the article, they cite tests which PROVE that there IS audible difference between sound heard which contains "ultrasonic" frequencies (above 20khz, where DVD-Audio and SACD succeed, but cd fails). The test also proves that the differences heard were INTERMODULATION and HARMONIC distortion WITHIN the "audio band" (below 20khz) caused by the ultra-sonic content "beating against" frequencies below 20khz. In other words, (and this is something I've suggested and suspected before) when people hear "big differences" the nature of the difference is that systems which reproduce lots of energy above 20khz are generating LOTS of distortion products below 20khz, and it's the distortion products which we hear, and which cause some to declare that there's "much more detail, and air". When a crossover was introduced so that the frequencies below 20khz, and those above are being reproduced by separate drivers, the distortion disappears, and along with it the "enormous differences"!
You have to look no further than the systems page on this forum (and others) to see that some people don't have a clue how to set up a two channel system in a room. Throwing $$ at the problem by buying expensive equipment is not the answer. Room treatment and thoughtful setup and placement is key.
But cliff12 came out of left field with a post that looks suspiciously like a shill.
I have to agree with cliff12, even though he lobbed his billboard into a thread he has no interest in, as Ozzy mentioned, that at a certian level of committment the serious audiophile must get serious about the room. In my experience most well furnished symetrical rooms don't need too much, but if you don't have symetry your missing a large percent of the picture. It's always amusing to hear about cable nuances from guys that have one speaker in their bathroom and other in front of their dishwasher. So still no comparisons to the Oragutans?
My room actually supports deep bass really well and is damped fairly well...speaker placement from front wall usually dials it in. Midrange nodes are the most problematic...striking the right balance takes some work.
Hello, I did not see any reference to room tuning. Fixing
your room will go a million miles further than buying better gear. Reach out to
Norm Varney at AV Room service. He is the authority when it comes to playback
room acoustics. He has written a lot of publications. If you have not tuned
your room and you have good gear take the next real step. It will amaze you
beyond belief. You want a system that sounds like the recording. it is not
possible without address the play back room.
All you guy polish the hammer about these speaker but they don’t go down deep in bass. Maybe they need 26 inch woofer. So they like top end in Maggie and play big is nice. Congrats on good speaker.
Yeah...I’ve been there and heard a lot of stuff, but at the end of the day it has to grab me and demand my attention ⚠️ At least the Cornwall’s get the basics right!
"At the end in reality I don’t care what you like to listen. I’m only sharing my opinion trying to help " some one " with a non biased attitude and wide open mind."
Dear @dave_b : Cleeds is rigth and even CDP goes beyond due to oversampling rates.Only as an example Spectral electronics goes to frecuencies as high as Mhz, yes Mhz: so what are you talking about? an spectral is not the only equipment with wide frecuency ranges.
Wilson goes at around 22khz ( +,-3db. ) but does Focal drivers handled usable frequencies over 25khz.
"" The only speaker I heard that did the top end extension correctly was my Maggie 3.6’s ""
"" wned speakers that went out to 45khz and beyond...if anything, the frequency balance was tipped up! ""
Looks as you , one way or the other, has a " problem " with high frequency sounds beyond 2okhz but live MUSIC harmonics goes beyond that figure.
I know that you are entitled with the limited frequency and high IMD distortion levels in those IV and maybe is that fact the one that impedes you can look the whole forest, you are seen only one pine on that forest.
Enouigh, because the worst " deaf man " is the one that does not wants to hear as the worst blind man is the one that does not wants to see.
At the end in reality I don’t care what you like to listen. I’m only sharing my opinion trying to help " some one " with a non biased attitude and wide open mind.
Looked at the frequency response of my 3 other favorite speakers...Wilson, Dunlavy and Totem, they all took off at 20khz. I use SACD/CD primarily as well. The only speaker I heard that did the top end extension correctly was my Maggie 3.6’s, but they couldn’t deliver the dynamics properly.
That's completely mistaken, unless you confine your remark to CD players only. Most good amplifiers, preamps, DACs and other components will easily sail far beyond 20K. Preserving HF helps maintain phase in the audible band.
FYI I owned speakers that went out to 45khz and beyond...if anything, the frequency balance was tipped up! Most high end sane manufacturers roll off above 20khz. Fun fact...most equipment cuts off at 20khz too 🥸
Dear @dave_b : ""
They say very little about how something sounds to a human! ""
Agree with your statement because that " how " is absolutely elusive and unique to each human been and I could think unmeasurable.
""
they fall off before 20khz. Yeah, not missing anything ""
well, I think only organ, harp and brushes are at 20khz. But remember that one thing is the main intrument note and other its developed harmonics that's where MUSIC really belongs.
Harmonics of a 10khz note goes to 20khz and up. Of course you are missing more that that " anything " a lot more.
Things are that our brain is adaptative to any sound we listen and does not measures the frequency response of what we are hearing.
I remember that I enjoy a lot my Tandberg tunner in those old times where its frequency response by radio characteristic transmission waslimited : 30hz to 15khz and that's all. Even that I enjoyed a lot listening MUSIC.
@james633 : """
The whole talk of upper frequencies is comical. I am 40 and can’t hear anything above 15khz. """
certainly it's not comical and not only for what I posted in this thread but something that I can see you did not read yet: human been hear through his ears, sking, hair and bones. So we in reality listen way beyond not 15khz but over 25khz. There are studies that proved that we can listen up to 40khz. and at the other extreme any one of us can listen frequencies as low of 12hz. We listen through all our body, our brain is an incredible and marvelous " machine " .
O M G ....😳 Thought what I was hearing through the Cornwall’s sounded amazing, but as I was listening to Jackson Brown Live this morning, it occurred to me that the last pair of horn speakers I had sounded their best with my Anticables Level 3 speaker cables and jumpers. So...in they went and the level of gloriously golden sounding resolution became instantly apparent! I haven’t heard this degree of sublime openness and definition while maintaining just the right balance of extension, midrange purity, warmth and complex tonality since I had my Watt/Puppy 6’s fronted by Levinson Reference gear and Transparent cabling. It’s like an open window compared to just a clean one...nothing between me and the musicians now!!
The whole talk of upper frequencies is comical. I am 40 and can’t hear anything above 15khz. I am far more careful with my hearing (as I am sure many of us are) than the average person too. It is just the nature of the beast. I think most people should get a real hearing test. They might be shocked at what they can or more likely can’t hear. It is more likely that breakup modes of the drivers creep into lower frequencies that we can hear but that is not related to horns but the drivers them selves. A compression drivers should have a higher break up node as the driver is moving less distance for the same SPL.
Researched instruments frequency fundamentals and upper harmonics...they fall off before 20khz. Yeah, not missing anything but artificial additives beyond that!
@dave_b, I've never heard the JBL4429's so I have no opinion on their sound quality. That said, IMHO nothing breaths life into music like a15'' woofer so I agree the Cornwall's are in another league then the JBL 4429's. Happy listening! Mike
"It does not makes sense to me that with all room/system different kind of limitations we add a heavy transducer frequency response limitations when the room/system chain per sé adds/lost MUSIC signal that originally came in the recording. As I said: makes no sense to me and this is not subjective but real, the IV specs talks by its self."
Dear @james633 : """
I have found I just like good old paper drivers and silk tweeters, in a damped box just fine. Often more than high tech items..""
I'm in agreement with you, as a fact my new " vintage " speakers in my today system came with: silk dome tweeters, silk dome mid ranges and pulp/paper woofers even my subwoofers were choiced because were the latest Velodyne models that came with pulp/paper woofers.
But in those silk/paper drivers exist no frequency limitations as in the horns and the horn limitation about is heavy one and goes against the MUSIC reproduction at home.
It does not makes sense to me that with all room/system different kind of limitations we add a heavy transducer frequency response limitations when the room/system chain per sé adds/lost MUSIC signal that originally came in the recording. As I said: makes no sense to me and this is not subjective but real, the IV specs talks by its self.
The Bozak’s I mentioned earlier barely wet down to 45HZ and maybe hit 18KHZ? Sounded like music. Cornwall’s have that same ability, but with scale and presence!
Dear @dave_b : Of course MUSIC is objective with the astonishing power to moves the human been deep emotions/feelings in subjective way because MUSIC develops different kind of subjective emotions with different gentlemans.
MUSIC use the stave, notes have can have different scale tones and evenpitch, harmonics are " metric " series, has different of SPLs, it must be accurated and can be measured, etc, etc all those is objective what is subjective/objective is the composer score.
Nothing wrong that you follow enjoying your new toy.
your posts are making me want a pair. They are very cheap too, well compared to everything else I want. As for the technical issues with horns, I can’t say I care. When I started in audio I read all the white papers and was interested in all the tech. Graphene, Kevlar, diamonds, beryllium, fancy this fancy that....
twenty years later I have found I just like good old paper drivers and silk tweeters, in a damped box just fine. Often more than high tech items. I have heard some very high tech speakers sound pretty unnatural (all very popular with good reviews). Often simpler is better. Get the big key items right.
Dear @dave_b : " Actually, what I’m hearing could be equated with a lack of distortion induced artifacts...""
There is no perfect speakers, all of them have trade-offs.
Horns developed low distortion levels, so you are rigth, and its immediacy of the reproduced sound could be addictive.
Its main negative trade-off is that horn speakers has is a very limited frequency response that with digital or analog media your Cornwall just can’t reproduce what is in the recording and this is a fact and does not matters if those speakers are mated with SS or tube ( worst. ) electronics.
The Cornwall frequency response ( horns. ) are +,- 4db at only 20khz.
You are a MUSIC lover and understand very well that heavy limitation along all the other issues of its woofer. What comes in the recordings has a wider usable/listenable wider frequency range, as a fact has no significant limitations. Maybe you as the other gentlemans just does not want to listen what is in the recording.
I can see in this thread several gentlemans that touted this Cronwall certainly all of them even that could thing they are MUSIC lovers in reality are not because if we attend to a Live MUSIC event we listen way over those 16khz ( the Cornwall is not flat at 20khz. ) of the IV, same at the lower range. Remember that human been " hears " not only through the ears but even all over our skin/bones/hair.
I’m not against that speaker I’m in favor of MUSIC and that speaker, no matters what, goes against MUSIC reproduction. Yes, I know that all of you like it but that is subjective and MUSIC is objective, accurated and its harmonics goes way beyond 16khz-20kz. MUSIC belongs to harmonics and instrument transients. Dave you understand it for sure.
Acapella uses horns but for very good reasons not at frequency extremes ranges and are marvelous performers with a tag/label price of over 250K.
Today expensive Avantgarde horn speakers performs very good and the limited frequency response in the up frequency range is usable at 20khz, comes with better response that the IV obviously is way more expensive.
A true MUSIC lover in the long time can’t accept those limitations not either his ears/brain.
I was exposed several times to top horn speakers and when I did it I was " impressed " at the first 5 minutes but not after 2 hours of listen it. Yes, that’s me not any one of you.
So I know for sure that those speakers will not be your last pair !.
@dave_b, I concur with your assessment of the Cornwall IV's. I will add they have better dynamic contrast then the B&W, also less money. And the lack of distortion is the reason why I prefer horns for sound reproduction in my home for over forty years. Match the speaker and amp and you should be golden...Happy listening! Mike btw, It was a horn that brought down the walls of Jericho. lol :-)
Dear @dave_b : "
it would only be the room or amplification and source! "
Mainly the source and room. The whole recording proccess is critical followed by the source medium: digital or analog.
Room/speaker must be mated and if not then colorations/distortions will be mainly what we will be listening at.
I let amplification at last due that are only two main characteristics that needs to be well mated with the speakers: impedance curve and sensitivity of the speakers and that's all.
The function of any amplifier is to let pass the MUSIC signal with out added " anomalies " to the MUSIC signal and with out lost of any part of that MUSIC signal. If the amp changes those then those " anamalies " only says the quality level of that amplifier: as more color the worst the amp is. Electronics must be accurated not analytical but working and measuring with accuracy.
From those point of view SS are the electronics that meets those targets. Again I'm not talking of what we like but what is rigth or wrong.
Btw, @audiopacer:
"""
I have my suspicions even he doesn't know what he's saying """
It's easy to make critics with out explain the foundations of those critics.
Please tell me why I do not know what I'm saying and remember that we are talking of home reproduction MUSIC recordings and not Live MUSIC that however must be our reference.
I can say this, if there are any limitations to these speakers being able to deliver an authentic re creation of a musical source, it would only be the room or amplification and source! Get the match right and you will be in audio heaven!
@dave_b I'm glad to hear your report. I have been preaching the same thing for months now. And what you describe is exactly why I preferred the CW IV over the Spatial Audio X3.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
