Looking for a Warmer Sounding Phono Cartridge

I have owned both Soundsmith Zephyr. I would not go with that but instead the Carmen (which I also owned and regretted selling with a turntable). Elliptical, very low groove noise compared to the Zephyr, warm and rounded sound. And cheaper than the Zephyr.

This is a tempest in a teapot. If you like 47K, you might also try 100K, and then choose what you like best. Results may vary in relation to total capacitance and personal preference. IMO, there’s no right or wrong.

@kevemaher Yes, I can guarantee the Grace is 47K.

There you can look from where came the flat frequency.

Your loading measures you did it just does not gives you flat frequency as you already posted.

As I posted, that's what you like and it's fine with me. Why that " big deal ".

R.

@rauliruegas Please read the F9 manual posted by farsch on he Vinyl Engine website. Both impedances are mentioned, but 47K is the only one in the spec list.

I'm pretty sure that Grace knew what they were doing.

@kevemaher  : Grace load values for the F9 produce a flat FR ( quadraphonic or not. ).

" The very small decrease in low freq response below 100Hz does not, to my mind and ears, drive my system beyond neutral. "

The key words in your statement are : " to my mind and ears " because for be those 5db in that bass FR is not neutral when for you it's for your " mind/ears ". So fine with me.

R.

@rauliruegas I load the cartridge with 47K. Total capacitance of cables and phono input is about 150 pf. I make my own phono cables. the bulk cable has a capacitance of 17 pf/ft, measured by me. Short runs have little capacitance, about 50 pf in the case of the cable I'm using.

As I noted previously, I've measured the FR of this cartridge. It has only a tiny rise above 10KHz, indicating that the loading is optimal for achieving bandwidth out to 20KHz, not the much higher bandwidth required by quadrophonic LPs. 

I have derived the equations that calculate the FR from my model of a cartridge The calculations agree with my measurements. There's no need for the 100K loading. In fact, it might introduce noise in the form of IM distortion.

The very small decrease in low freq response below 100Hz does not, to my mind and ears, drive my system beyond neutral.

@lewm Thanks for the suggestions. It was definitely a worn out stylus. As I mentioned, I really wasn't aware of the care that cartridges require.

A year or so ago, when I knew a bunch more and had performed over 20 alignments I pulled the cartridge out of deep storage. It still skipped. Other cartridges sound great on the same table. So there's nothing amiss with the table. In fact, this particular arm has very smooth motion and little bearing friction.

I retired the stylus assembly and replaced it with the SS R-9E.

"stylus kept skipping across the LP..."

This suggests the tonearm is hanging up on something external, like the cueing device (if you have altered VTA in connection with changing cartridges, there is a chance the tonearm is fouling the lift on the cue), or there is drag on the internal tonearm wires (can be invisible rubbing, where the internal wires enter the vertical pivot shaft).  Also, if you have even a modest magnifying glass around the house, take a look to see whether the stylus is still attached to the cantilever. Also, check out the anti-skate device on your tonearm.

@lewm The alignment must have been way off. I never bothered with alignment over three moves. I just never thought about it. I have since been educated.

Believe me, it sounded horrible. In fixing this problem I noticed that the stylus kept skipping across the LP. I think that the stylus had reached the end o its life. So there were several causes for the shrill sound.

I find that electrolytic capacitors in the signal path can give a nasty, almost digital glare to the higher frequencies. Could it be that there are electrolytics in your speaker crossover?

I upgraded the crossovers in my neighbour’s higher end bookshelves, and the difference was night and day. Very much bang for buck.

But if you are bent on a cartridge change, I have a higher end Koetsu and similarly priced Grado. The Grado is smoother.

It's just that I have never found alignment to make such a quantitative difference in apparent frequency response. But this is very subjective, I suspect.

Some people are more sensitive to high frequency metallic tweeters and find them strident. Usually a soft dome tweeter would be better for them.

Glad the OP found a solution- I highly suspect a warmer “quality” cartridge than the Koetsu Rosewood Sig doesn’t exist, do more warmth must be gotten somewhere else in his audio chain.

My advice is to move past the Nova II. I had the III and even with the added power supply I felt it was unengaging and flat sounding. Manley Chinooks added tons of warmth and depth over the Nova. Can’t say I’ve got any input on cartridge warmth, but for close to the same budget you might be able to find an older used Chinook.

@lewm Thanks for the suggestion about Tinnitis.; I have my ears checked regularly. Never a mention of Tinnitis or any other kind of hearing loss except for the loss of high frequencies.

I looked online for symptoms. I don't have any.

This is clearly my personal bias. Back when I was less informed about the technical aspects of phono cartridges, my system was so irritating that I stopped listening to vinyl. I thought that there was something wrong with the mastering or pressing. "How could they..." was my thinking.

Now I know that alignment is so important. Then I was listening to a badly aligned cartridge. Now I never get that awful sound I had back then because I now put a lot of care into stylus and cartridge alignment.

Disdain for that awful sound must still linger in my mind. Even a small amount of it is a real annoyance. Cymbals can sound very bad if not properly reproduced. And in my experience there are very few recordings that get this sound acceptable (to me).

@kevemaher  : Btw, Grace 9 series motor cartridge was designed to run at 100k not 47k to play the CD-4 recordings of those times. Other cartridges runs at the same load impedance for the same issue like Empire.

R.

You might consider the Grace Asakura One MC. Also, I saw a review about Grado’s highest level cartridge and reviewer said it’s the best sounding cartridge he’s ever heard. I believe it sells for around $30,000.00. I’ll take three!

I also have a personal disfavor of rising high end cartridges.  I went back to a more simple Dynavector 20X2 L although I did consider the Rosewood and Hana MC (red and now blue).  I have hearing at least out to 16Khz (tested last year at 66).  I am sensitive to a few odd high frequencies, especially one soprano note around high Bb or A which sounds piercing to me, in the Dorothy Chandler (season ticket holder/400+ performances).  The lower resolution Dynavector permits me to enjoy almost all of my 27,500 LPs.  The Karat Diamond annoys on less than high quality LPs and Lyras, Ortofons are too bright for me.  I'm sorry for your hearing loss/sensativity issues. 

@kevemaher  : " I'd consider my system neutral. "

Maybe measured " neutral " but exist several levels/steps of system measured " neutral " Your system " looks " as an average or a little below average system and ovbiously it performs inside that " neutral " overall quality level.

It's clear that if you are deep found in that " neutral " measured system then you have a " trouble " inside your ears not the system or you need a way stepped " neutral "  system quality above yours.

You are happy with the F9 ( I own .it ) even that measured not " neutral " in that bass range when Grace measures says is flat down there.

So, some " facts " of what you posted are against in between.

In the other side in audio  and other that measures the concept of " neutral " means different " things " to different gentlemans and you are an example of that.

R.

@piebaldpython Yes, I am still running the original tubes made in Hungary.

I purchased this preamp in 1980. It was in my system for about two years. I devloped a problem with the volume going to max if I touched the pot. At that time, I had little knowledge on how to troubleshoot so I put it away and purchased an APT Preamp Two.

Fasr forward to today...

Both preamps are back in my system as phono preamps. The Paragon is fed by a DIY SUT using Cinemag 1254 Xformers (the stylus is a Koetsu RS). The Apt is being used as a phono preamp for my Grace F9E with Soundsmith stylus assembly. I use the tape out.

I have rebuilt the PSU for the Paragon. I fixed the noisy pot with some Deoxit. Wish I has been able to figure that out 40 years ago!

I've performed a major update to the APT. New caps in the PS and in the signal path. Low ESR caps in the PS and Nichicon Fine Gold caps for signal path. I disassembled the volume pot (which I'm not using). This really cleaned up the sound.

I replaced the TL072CP ICs with modern OPA 2134 ICs. However these ICs draw more power and were blowing the 1/4 amp fuse (a 4A fuse did not blow). So I installed new TL0712 ICs in the tone control and gain section. I kept  the OPA 2134 in the phono preamp section. The 1/4 amp fuse was happy.

I have extensively measured both preamps after rebuild. The OPA 2134 reduced the already low 60 Hz noise on the APT (and higher order) by almost 10dB.

- Aside from reducing the 60 Hz hum,  the OPA 2134 replacement ICs on the APT did not change the distortion, nor the max input.

The noise floor is -80 dB with distortion slightly above this with both preamps.

These are excellent results. Sound is wonderful. Both have a slightly warm presentation. The Paragon does not have excessive "Tube Sound". Both are very quiet.

These guys will stay in my system for a long time.

Best MM is the Audio Note IQ iii

Try ZYX for MC...they are very neutral with great detail.

Not just an opinion as I own them.

Since you don't have to buy another cartridge you could now replace your phono stage with a tube one. Besides, you will be using vintage cartridge, and vintage means tube electronics.

Most MC cartridges exhibit electro-mechanical resonance at very high frequencies, well above the range of human hearing, depending upon load and etc.  But many do exhibit a slight 1-2db rise in FR at the very top of the audio spectrum.  Anyway, it is sufficient to say that you are sensitive to something about MC cartridges that manifests in the upper frequencies, without nailing down exactly what that is. Which is why I mentioned tinnitus. For me, I find many of them to be "thin" sounding in parts of the spectrum especially on piano and some voices.  I am guessing that this is due to very subtle mistracking, because sometimes I  can "cure" a particular cartridge by increasing VTF ever so slightly. But it's just a guess.

@lewm I've found that the setting of the Anti-Skate is more difficult for MC cartridges. Separation must be nailed exactly for best performance. It is more difficult to find arm/headshell combinations that will produce resonance in the sweet zone. MC cartridges are also more delicate (mechanically, not audibly).

And most sound too shrill for me, whenever I set the VTA, VTF. This is clearly a personal preference.

Any of the classic MM cartridges will be high compliance.  I have a Grace Ruby with an SS OCL stylus on the correct sapphire cantilever.  It's a marvelous cartridge.  But I am not aware that the required degree of alignment accuracy for a happy outcome is dependent upon cartridge type (MM vs MI vs MC).  Probably the elliptical stylus shape is more tolerant of small errors in alignment than are modern stylus shapes, if indeed that has anything to do with this story.  I am what I call an "alignment nihilist".

I've found a solution to my dislike of screechy highs. And it was right in my cartridge drawer!

I installed my very old Grace F9 body with a Soundsmith RS-9E stylus assembly (plugs in). The stylus assembly  is constructed of an Alimunum Cantilever and a nude elliptical diamond stylus. Installation was on my Denon DP-57L table.

 I've forgotten how difficult MC alignment can be and how easy this MM cartridge was to align. Separation, azimuth, anti-skate, VTA, and VTF adjustments were straightforward and simple.

The sound is very beautiful and smooth. I love the midrange. Bass is surprisingly full and has detail. The FR curve shows gradually diminishing  lows by about 5dB from 100Hz down to 20Hz and a very small rise above 10KHz of about 2 dB. Separation is about 27dB. I set the VTF to 1.25g (the old Grace recommendation was 1.2g). SS doesn't spec the compliance, but if it is true to the Grace F99E it is high compliance. The stylus is almost brand new. No screeching.

This issue is settled for me...for now.

Kavemaher, have you been to an ENT specialist or an audiologist? Could it be that you have tinnitus?

Fremer is fun to read but I don’t use his recommendations at all. He gets a lot of stuff wrong and his somewhat of a meltdown on the Mofi One Steps and his twenty years late review on electrical service (like he discovered Xanadu) coming into the home and a whole bunch of other stuff. I’m downsizing my cartridge purchasing after years of spending thousands on them and when my Dynavector crashes and burns, will purchase a HANA S MC Low Output Phono Cartridge.  When I got turned on to this company I was really surprised how good it was.  750 bucks!  Less than just about every MC I've owned since the late eighties.

One source for your " ears "  problem ( because it's not a cartridge problems. ) could be that build material of your speaker tweeters that crossover around 2.5khz and could have some kind of ringing down there or maybe not because you said your room/system is neutral and you measured.

Great point by Raul. Certain cartridges and tweeters not getting along is DEFINITELY something I've noticed. Don't discount this. My big Tannoys with the pepperpot tweeter render a vivid, lush midrange but there is a cost to this with a certain roughness / hot spot somewhere in the treble region. Cartridges which don't mellow out in this region can be like icepicks to my ears lol. Other Tannoys with the tulip tweeter are a lot more well behaved in that region, and don't display this problem. 

@kevemaher  : Obviously your Rane is not helping you to for your ears " problem " and gain/loading for the Hana/Shelter neither. The Rosewood is way different performer and that's one reason you like it because is not so " agressive " .

One source for your " ears "  problem ( because it's not a cartridge problems. ) could be that build material of your speaker tweeters that crossover around 2.5khz and could have some kind of ringing down there or maybe not because you said your room/system is neutral and you measured.

Now, if the Rosewood works for your " ears " then why to look for other cartridge when the other 2 that are not bad cartridges just does not works with your " ears ". 

Why to use more that one cartridge and if you want to use your other tonearms then Rosewood dowthere too.

Different tonearms and different tonearm internal wiring could help too with those 2 cartridges.

At the end reading here and there you are only " guessing " what only your ears can confirm, not guessing because your room/system is unique as each one of our room/systems and it's obvious and you learned in this thread when you posted:

"  that there are about as many opinions as there are posts. "

R.

Wow! A free offer to receive a very professional overview of a raised Cartridge concern.

This certainly surpasses my most recent act of kindness to a stranger. 

@kevemaher , I have watched this conversation develop and I can see it might be of limited value to you. Feel free to call me to discuss. The first question I am going to ask you is what is your loading set at and what is the coil impedance of your cartridge. There may be at least three follow up questions from there.

For everyone else, I do not recommend changing SRA and VTA (Two VERY different things that are important for different reasons with different targeted ideal ranges) by increasing mat thickness as it changes a minimum of four variables that can impact the playback performance: SRA, VTA, tonearm pivot vector forces and record to support surface mechanical impedance. (Note that I am assuming you will adjust for VTF when changing arm height or record height otherwise you will also be changing damper compression vertically AND horizontally in addition to any changes to SRA & VTA due to the new VTF.) On some tonearms, height changes can also affect azimuth. If you make height changes at the tonearm pivot area instead of at the record, then you reduce your variables by one. Not a huge win, but a step in the right direction.

When attempting to make an improvement to performance, it is important to impact as few variables as possible so you can better understand and control the outcome. Without such control, you could - for example - change record height with a thicker mat and three parameters might improve but one might get much worse, giving you no obvious net improvements. Rather, if you were to do your best to limit the total variables impacted when you make such a change then you can assess for the changes in a more controlled fashion.

With that said, I think the likelihood of your issue being a mechanical one is no foregone conclusion. We can discuss when you call me. Phone on website. I’m not going to push my tools on you. I’m going to help you control the variables so you can get to the bottom of this. High frequency "screechinesssssss" is NOT a characteristic of moving coils that are properly setup and electro-mechanically damped.

@dekay    Very good idea....I'm in the same boat as the OP and I'm going to try the Thicker Mat suggestion...Thanks.

Your preamp is a nice one! Still have the original JAN 12AX7's inside? Do you run your SUT through the tubed MM stage of the preamp?

An easy way to "sample" lower VTA is to use a thicker mat or shim the mat currently used with an LP.

This will effectively lower the tail end of the cartridge which should offer a fuller/warmer sound.

If doing so shows merit, then adjust VTA the proper way by lowering the tonearm.

VTF will need to be reset when using a thicker or shimmed mat and as you already stated (think it was you) VTA is set by ear.

DeKay

Thanks everybody for your comments. I've learned via this thread that there are about as many opinions as there are posts.

I must think.

kevemaher OP

My concern is that you could spend a decent amount of money chasing something that does not exist.

"I use a 31 band EQ (yeah, I know, evil stuff). I can drop the treble and bump up the lower mid. I want a cartridge that does that adjustment for me."

My guess is that you have that Equalizer in a tape loop, so that you can use it or bypass it. I also bet if flat, you do not hear any degradation. Therefor you have given yourself a precisely advanced tone control, seems to be a darn good idea for you in this situation. That's Angelic, not Evil. IOW, good idea!!!!

Once you have the EQ adjusted, it sounds good on all LPs, correct? If so, DONE.

.............................................................

"Perhaps I will never find that cartridge with the seemingly elusive qualities that I desire. I'm not ready to accept that yet."

I might be wrong, my take: Elusive is a good word, I cannot imagine a designer of any audio device purposely  creating a product with a rise and dip as you describe. That would be considered a 'failure', and off to 'fix those problems' would occur. 

The differences between cartridges I hear are extension of range, which you do not want (except your equalizer can cut the extended highs); and tight center balance, a highly desirable feature; and wide channel separation which, combined with tight center balance improves Imaging.

For me, a stiffer cantilever produces extended bass, or bass of greater volume to match adjacent frequencies volumes. The problem, especially for you, is that stiffer cantilever material also maintains volumes at each end and extends highs, not so good for you.

My guess for you, as a category, is Elliptical on Aluminum Cantilever. My favorite is Shure M97xe. Possibly combined with a bit of adjustment of your Equalizer.

https://phono-cartridge-reviews.co.uk/reviews/shure-m97xe/

This seller is in CA, takes returns, perhaps have a discussion first, then try it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/166291389182?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5338381866&toolid=10001&customid=5e4e5540-5550-11ee-b7ac-363363373432

I’ll bet it’s not a cartridge issue. Have you tried other speakers other than the Revel bookshelf units, which appear to be a system weak point, even with a sub? And have considered possible room treatment issues?  If your room is too live/overly reflective that could be part of the problem. 
 

good luck!

I’m surprised the Shelter 901 Mk III didn’t do what you want. Though I haven’t heard the 901 yet it looks like a Harmony motor in an aluminum body, and that same motor in the Accord (titanium shell) is truly wonderful IMO, and not too far off from Koetsu. You definitely won’t like the Harmony; its dry carbon fiber body leans things out and it’s more about "pursuit of detail".

Benz are a bit warm and full-bodied, but not as much as Koetsu. It’s still a relatively big difference. They also have a lot more treble energy. The Ortofon Cadenza Bronze and (even better) Kontrapunkt "c" are oddballs in their line which sound more Koetsu-like. Nothing else above or below them sounds remotely like Koetsu.

A Koestu with 1254 SUT is just going to be hard to match in the warm / lush department. The treble should not be fatiguing, even in otherwise bright systems. Not sure any other MC can do that. The suggestions for Grado are expected (I still haven’t heard one!). You might also consider the following:

• Find a good re-tipper to keep your Koetsu running long-term. I’m considering contacting Joseph Long / needlestein if Koetsu doesn’t resume production.
• Look at amp & preamp - this can have a HUGE impact on end product sound, and I’ve definitely noticed some carts synergize better with certain amps and/or speakers. When I’ve had brighter speaker & amp combinations, NOTHING other than a Koetsu would sound natural.

It was mentioned already but based on the OP's goals my thoughts go immediately to a Benz.  The LP/LPS or Ebony series fit the bill and are frequently available here from Euro or Asian sellers for less than retail.  The LPS is outstanding, classic analog warmth but still loads of detail, not syrupy at all.  Above stated budget but maybe one of the down range models would fit.  

Ok, you should try a protractor that has UNIDIN This was developed in 2010 using LP. Blocks don't work, and neither does VTA The changes you hear from the movement of the arm are attributed to variations in tracking force and pushing the arm in and out of alignment. This Technics table and arm combinations are not exactly great Get Analog Magic. 

Hello, Baylinor is correct. This should increase the mids. If the sound becomes a little dull lower the VTF while keeping it within specs. Meaning if you have an Ortofon cart instead of using recommendation of 2.3g then use 2.1g. Just so you know when you lower your VTA your VTF raises. So adjust the VTF down to 2.2g then lower the VTA. It takes 4mm of VTA to change your SRA by 1 degree. It all makes a difference, even 1 mm. Most people know that you typically are only hearing the change in VTF. What you will gain is more warmth from getting better mids. If you like where the sound is heading but you run out of VTA then call JR at Wallyanalogtools.com or WAM Engineering. He can creat a shim that will set any of your carts to near protection for $500. I feel you have really great carts that are not setup properly. This can be corrected. Remember to start the VTF at the lowest recommended level when your VTA is lowered. You will get the detail back. If you hear sibilance then keep raising the VTF until it’s gone.  

Dear @kevemaher  :  " I want warmth with quality. "

Look warmth means no quality for a good phono cartridge, as a fact live MUSIC seated at nearfield position has quality with out warmth.

I think that you do not think you need a new   cartridge because there is not the problem instead my advise is to add to your system a good equalizer analog as Klark TekniK or digital.

That you like the Koetsu does not means is a " rigth " cartridge doing its job because it's not but that's what you like so try the equalizer.

Reards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

Warm? To me that means no to a rising high end.  
Shure V15 V with Jico SAS stylus.  Grace F9 Ruby.  Van denHul MC10.

Generally a Cart' set to have the Heel/Tail lower than the Parallel Line will be one that increases the Lower Frequencies presence.

It is a common suggested setting for the ranges of LOMC Ortofon Cart's, produced during the period of 2000 -2010.  

It is pretty clear what you are looking for--something that sounds like the Koetsu Rosewood Signature, but at a small fraction of the price of that very high end cartridge.  I like that cartridge a lot loo, but, I have not heard something comparable that was in your $1500 price range.  Grado wood body cartridges are warm sounding too, but, compared to the Koetsu, they sound murky and lacking in life.  Most of the other warmish cartridges seem to lack, to varying degrees, the lively and engaging quality of a Koetsu.  Perhaps something like an Ortofon Cadenza Red will come reasonably close, but, it still would not be the same.  I would get a cheaper back-up/substitute cartridge and save up for a re-tip by Koetsu when it finally wears out.  

@kevemaher 

My current carts are Lyra Kleos and Sumiko Starling. The Kleos recommends a parallel setting while the Starling recommends tail down. Obviously the raking angle of the stylus effects how to adjust  the VTA. But in general, tail down will increase the low frequencies and tame the high ones, while tail up will do the opposite. With tail down the Kleos loses to much liveliness, while parallel the Starling doesn't have enough body to the sound. At least these are my experiences in my house of stereo which is very revealing sound wise. Just try lowering your VTA a millimiter at a time and I would be shocked if eventually you do not hear what I am talking about. 

@elliottbnewcombjr Thanks for your offer. I am in California, long way from you.

I do all the adjustments you've mentioned. I am obsessed with getting them set correctly.

I use a 31 band EQ (yeah, I know, evil stuff). I can drop the treble and bump up the lower mid. I want a cartridge that does that adjustment for me.

Perhaps I will never find that cartridge with the seemingly elusive qualities that I desire. I'm not ready to accept that yet.