I bought an Ortofon Quintet Red a few months ago and it sounds amazingly good (Linn Basik/Akito)...I'll be watching it closely to see if it dies after 600 hours (I maybe have 50 hours on it...it's just warming up), but at 350 bucks...well...I'll get another one.
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Stylus can be bonded or nude, all nude styli are high quality and very well polished (imo), a cartridge with advanced profile is not cheap by default, especially if the stylus mounted on advanced cantilever. If you meant current retail price (when you sayin' "low-medium price cartridges") then it's modern cartridges and nearly all those styli came from very few companies (Namiki, Ogura ... in Japan). All low priced modern cartridges does not have advanced diamonds, not even nude diamonds when it comes to various modern MM, but i don't know what is "low price" for you, because when we're talking about LOMC the price range is so wide (up to the sky). The stylus life span depends on profile type, and those with a life span up to 2000hrs are Micro Ridge, F.Gyger, VdH, Replicant 100 etc Shibata or Line Contact does not live that long, it is true. But Elliptical does not live even 600 hrs and conical life span is shorter than elliptical No matter what, but it's more reasonable to look for a cartridges with Shibata at least (or better profiles) for practical reason. Especially LOMC cartridges. |
something to clarify, not all special styli last 2000hrs, especially if fitted to low-medium price cartidges. 600-1000hrs is the max you can get till diamond changes shape seriously and assuming that suspension does not go first. Apart from diamond shape other factors like polishing have their influence on playing time. |
@bob540 yes, you can i’ve heard it before from many record collectors, they don’t understand why anyone need a decent speakers, amps, turntables, cartridges ... If if they wish to have it then just don't buy it for some reason. All they need is records! Some of them are very deep into records, and they got very rare originals (and good taste in music too), but they’re listening great records on the cheapest equipment, most of them always claiming they will not be able to hear any difference between their $100 cartridges with worn styli and some decent $300 cartridges. However, when i played some of their favorite records in my system everyone hear a better resolution, greater dynamics, deeper and wider soundstage and so on and on ... I could bring a cartridge and a phono stage to a friends too, once they hear the difference in their own system people often ask for the same cartridge or same phono stage, they don’t want to go back to the sound they have been living with. Improvement is great, but it is very important to make sure there is an improvement and then you’re hooked. There is no miracle, if you understand how it works (inside a phono cartridge) then it’s impossible to deny an obvious things. Stylus shape is one of the most important thing for accurate reproduction of vinyl media. A cartridge with $300-500 price tag is fun to have, it is all about fun after all. A $3000 cartridge is definitely for fanatics, but a $300-500 cartridge is affordable, one LP re-issue cost $30 today, original record cost $100 easily, some rare records cost way over $300 and it’s just a piece of plastic. A cartridge is not a piece of plastic and $300-500 cartridge is quite normal today. Replacement stylus with the most advanced profile can cost $300-400 for such cartridge, but this is 2000hrs of satisfaction and pure joy. |
I understand that the better cartridges/styluses product better sound as well as more longevity . . . but if I am satisfied with the sound from a conical or elliptical stylus, wouldn’t it be cheaper to just buy more such styluses and change them as needed rather than to buy a more expensive cartridge/stylus and use it for the expected life? I saw a conical stylus to fit my old Pickering cartridge for just $29 — I could buy 5 or 10 or more of those for less than I might spent for one high-quality cartridge with stylus. |
Yeah. The price is great, but don't forget that Garrott can be purchased from audiophiles, i bought mine from audiogon member from Australia long time ago, he had a stylus counter for all his cartridges. I bought very low hrs sample for funny price, it was the progonal Garrott P77. Very few people on this forum are using Garrott cartridges, those cartridges are great! |
@chakster, Error noted. However, the $1150 AUD$ includes a 10% tax that is deleted if selling to US, so the USA$ price drops to about $625, and with $35 express shipping = about $660; hard to argue with that price :). Not sure if the stylus retip is also = +10%, but if not 2000-hr cost is about $1100 with shipping = about $0.55/hr, not a bad price. |
I would not be so dismissive of VTF as a variable for record and diamond wear. There is a given recommended VTF for any cartridge by the manufacturer, life span of the stylus stated for a given (recommended) tracking force, however there is a range, but the difference is so tiny, so i don’t think it’s a big problem. I always use recommended tracking force from the manual, but it can be a bit lower or a bit higher and that’s also stated in the manual. People who love the analog does not use just one cartridge, they got many cartridges in rotation, it’s a part of the hobby. As far as the Garrott Optim FGS, the life cost for 2000 hrs is $1150 for the cartridge and $660 for retip (non user replaceable) @antinn This is AUSTRALIAN Dollars, not USD :) You can correct your calculations AUD 1150 = USD $705 and this is a cost of the cartridge AUD 660 = USD $405 and this is a cost of stylus exchange Fair price for such cartridge with F.Gyger stylus profile. Feel the difference, it’s Australian company, shipping worldwide is not a problem for a cartridge. |
Hi, The more elaborate profiles will last much longer and do less damage to the grooves. Micro ridge styli can last well over 2,000hrs within specified limits of playing weight. Too much weight kills the suspension. VDH styli cannot last 3,000hrs, i had 2 of them and hit approx.1,5k hrs mark, not the same with Zyx as one passed well over the 2k mark but started mistracking due to suspension (had it for over 10 years). Expect my current one to set a new record! |
@chakster, I would not be so dismissive of VTF as a variable for record and diamond wear. The advanced profile stylus's such as Micro-Ridge increase the surface area of the stylus to better contact/track the groove. The hardness of an inclusion free diamond is fixed. So, a consequence is that force over area calculates the pressure and this is a major factor in wear of any material, so the advanced profile stylus's have longer life if not compromised by excessive VTF. As far as the Garrott Optim FGS, the life cost for 2000 hrs is $1150 for the cartridge and $660 for retip (non user replaceable) = $0.91/hr-use, and the manufacturer is in Europe which for USA means international shipping (for retip) with associated shipping cost/customs. None of this is any critique of the cartridge performance - just a cost analysis. As far as digital, your passionate opinion is well known on this forum, but my statement was life cycle cost only. Some Mobile Fidelity Gold and JVC XRCD CD's on a good CD transport can sound quite good. But, I am equal opportunity, so I have analog and digital, but my dollar investment is in analog. |
Where did zyx.com get their data - did they do actual testing? VDH says his stylus can last 3000-hrs. But there is a big difference between ZYX and VDH, and that has to do with VTF. The higher the VTF the more force and the faster the wear. If you do a simple calculation with the contact stylus area and the VTF, it calculates into 1000’s-lbs/in^2 (some calculations yield up to 20-Tons/in^2). ZYX designed by Nakatsuka-San who has as much experience in cartridge design as Van Den Hul. I believe they did actual tests in Japan. Or do you think ZYX is a bunch of amateurs or what ? My point is that Micro Ridge has the longest life span at recommended tracking force, no matter who is the manufacturer of the cartridge. The ZYX tracks at 2.0 gm avg, while the VDH tracks at 1.4 gm avg, that is a 30% difference. That is a lot, and the wear rate may not be linear, so a 30% reduction in force may result is >>30% reduction in wear rate. I don’t care, the point is the long life span of the advanced stylus profile such as Micro Ridge and related profiles. 30% more or 30% less - it does not matter at all, it will be the longest life span anyway compared to conventional Elliptical/Conical profiles. One of my cartridge’s is the Soundsmith Carmen MKII. The stylus is a hyper-elliptical, but its VTF is only 1.4 gm avg. Now consider a Denon DL-103R which requires 2.5-3.0 gms, it can’t have more than 500-hrs, and because of the high VTF, the risk of record damage has to be greater than a cartridge that has a low VTF. I hate Denon 103 cartridge and any cartridge with Conical stylus profile such as SPU and related oldschool garbage with rolled-off high frequency sound. Hyper Elliptical is a nice profile. Most of the cartridges have VTF from 1 to 2 gramms, except for some oldschool monsters like SPU. The key point if not the tracking force alone, but stylus profile and contact area to distribute this tracking force over the wider contact area for less records wear and stylus wear. Conical profiles must be avoided for this reason, they wear quicker and damage records. From a life cycle/performance cost, the Soundsmith Carmen MKII may be the lowest cost cartridge. Because of the low VTF, you should be able to get 1000-hrs, and right now the MKII is on sale Elusive Disc for $699, and Soundsmith "rebuilds" the cartridge for $199, and consider that the Soundsmith rebuild is not a retip, its a complete rebuild with the suspension replaced. So a 2,000-hr cost is ~$900, or ~$0.45/hr-use, and at 3000-hrs = $1100 = $0.37/hr-use. It is true that his service is top notch for his own cartridges. It’s a good point because on some MC cartridges suspension fails before the stylus wear off. Compare that to an Ortofon 2M Black with Shibata stylus that is $750 plus ~$550 for new stylus, so the 2000-hr cost is $1300 = $0.65/hr-use, and at 3000 hrs cost is $1850 = $0.62/hr-use. There are tons of amazing vintage MM and MI cartridges on the market in NOS condition with sealed original spare styli with the best profiles for lower price (or higher price). The goal of the vintage NOS options is not only better profiles, but also much better cantilevers (beryllium for example). Here is a Garrott Optim FGS cartridge, so called Dynamic Coil, this model has Fritz Gyger stylus (one of the best ever profile). Garrott was one of the best retipping/refurbishing service back in the days, under new ownership this is still a very nice company in Australia, they can offer a wide range of MM cartridges based on very popular P77 model. But, make no mistake, digital can beat analogue life cycle cost easily because the average laser or digital component MTBF is at least 5000-hrs (but sadly the 30,000-hr MTBF of the Phillips benchmark glass optic lasers are history). In my opinion: Digital sucks, boring and not a good alternative to vinyl records, especially to truly analog vintage pressings with old music (60’s/70’s for example), the source for those records was a master tape, digital remastering ruin it and most of the modern reissue are so bad. Original vinyl still available and in 90% it’s better. Digital is for new music, recorded digitally. But even new music can be recorded in analog and released on vinyl, musicians are happy with vinyl releases. |
@chakster, Where did zyx.com get their data - did they do actual testing? VDH says his stylus can last 3000-hrs. But there is a big difference between ZYX and VDH, and that has to do with VTF. The higher the VTF the more force and the faster the wear. If you do a simple calculation with the contact stylus area and the VTF, it calculates into 1000's-lbs/in^2 (some calculations yield up to 20-Tons/in^2). The ZYX tracks at 2.0 gm avg, while the VDH tracks at 1.4 gm avg, that is a 30% difference. That is a lot, and the wear rate may not be linear, so a 30% reduction in force may result is >>30% reduction in wear rate. One of my cartridge's is the Soundsmith Carmen MKII. The stylus is a hyper-elliptical, but its VTF is only 1.4 gm avg. Now consider a Denon DL-103R which requires 2.5-3.0 gms, it can't have more than 500-hrs, and because of the high VTF, the risk of record damage has to be greater than a cartridge that has a low VTF. From a life cycle/performance cost, the Soundsmith Carmen MKII may be the lowest cost cartridge. Because of the low VTF, you should be able to get 1000-hrs, and right now the MKII is on sale Elusive Disc for $699, and Soundsmith "rebuilds" the cartridge for $199, and consider that the Soundsmith rebuild is not a retip, its a complete rebuild with the suspension replaced. So a 2,000-hr cost is ~$900, or ~$0.45/hr-use, and at 3000-hrs = $1100 = $0.37/hr-use. Compare that to an Ortofon 2M Black with Shibata stylus that is $750 plus ~$550 for new stylus, so the 2000-hr cost is $1300 = $0.65/hr-use, and at 3000 hrs cost is $1850 = $0.62/hr-use. Of course, the above analysis is useless if you do not like the sound of the Soundsmith Carmen, but the analysis is presented as a way to access a cartridge life cycle cost. But, make no mistake, digital can beat analogue life cycle cost easily because the average laser or digital component MTBF is at least 5000-hrs (but sadly the 30,000-hr MTBF of the Phillips benchmark glass optic lasers are history). However, if you are wealthy, life cycle cost means nothing, but this thread was looking for advice on a long lasting cartridge. |
Where are you seeing where a MicroRidge can be used for more than 2000 hours. I’m interested in that kind of longevity! I may be missing something here so pardon my ignorance. @malatu Yes, you’re definitely missed something, especially the last paragraphs, SAS stylus is MicroRidge, see below: "This is not to say that at 500 hrs (SAS) stylus is "worn out" - but at that stage the wear has reached the point where distortion at 15kHz surpasses the level specified by Jico for a new stylus. (Which I believe is 3%). Some manufacturers have traditionally defined a stylus as being "worn out" when it starts to damage the record... in these terms the figures provided by Jico can at least be doubled, and in some cases quadrupled." -SoundSmith You can be confused with different names given to specific profiles, but what you have to understand is that Conical/Elliptical profiles are the simplest and cheapest with short life span, the advanced profiles are much more complicated if you will look at them, very long life span, it depends who hold the patent (sometimes it’s just different name, but same profile), but the best are MicroRidge, F.Gyger, VdH, MicroLine just to name a few. Shibata, LineContact are somewhere in the middle, but better than Elliptical, i think in the modern world it must be a starting poing (conical and elliptical must be avoided). When you buying a cartridge you can read the manual, modern Micro Ridge profile can be used for 2000 hrs at recommended tracking force with clean records, simply check the specs here scroll down and you will see Micro Ridge contact radius and life span ( 3μm×60μm, 2000Hour/2.0gm). Vintage Stereohedron profile can be used for 1000hrs. I’ll give you the quote from the Stanton/Pickering manual: ● Stereohedron stylus can be used for 1000 hrs. We recommend to check your stylus every 250 hrs. Like its cousin, the Quadrahedral, the STEREOHEDRON stylus is shaped to provide an enlarged area of record groove contact, while providing the ability to accurately trace the high frequency, the level modulations found on today’s records, thus, the Stereohedron stylus provides superior performance which low stylus wear and low record wear for your stereo records. This cartridge will perform superbly not only with stereo, but with four-channel matrix derived systems (SQ, QS, etc). P.S. Modern equivalent of the Stereohedron is Paratrace from Expert Stylus (UK). |
All, The current definitive discussion on stylus wear and life is here: https://thevinylpress.com/the-finish-line-for-your-phonograph-stylus/. |
You write the following:
Advanced profiles like MicroRidge can be used for more than 2000 hrs, This is a cut n paste from SoundSmith's website. https://www.sound-smith.com/articles/stylus-shape-information
Where are you seeing where a MicroRidge can be used for more than 2000 hours. I'm interested in that kind of longevity! I may be missing something here so pardon my ignorance. |
Question- I don't have the ability to change VTA or azimuth on the fly which I understand is recommended for Micro Ridge , MicroLine or similar stylus profiles.Then again I don't play LPs very often- maybe 4hrs per week. So is a spherical- aka Denon or elliptical -aka Denon 103 OK? Kenwood KD500 w/ Grace 707 arm. I have those carts. |
Chakster, I understood what you said in your first post. Just wondering if my 2m Blue has the same roughly 600 hour life expectancy. Thanks. @mjcmt Yes, 600 hrs maximum for your Ortofon Nude Elliptical tip. The best profile from Ortofon is Replicant-100 I remember when Ortofon offered very nice FineLine profile even on very cheap MM like M20FL Super, this is why vintage MM are better. Why we had that MM hype on audiogon many years ago this cartridge was just under $100 (amazing), but not available at this price anymore. Here is the article for you on SoundSmith website, nearly everything you need to know. You will be surprised reading the quite below: Wear, Tear and Life |
Would a Dynavector Karat 17d2work? Yes! Great cartridge, i have KARAT 17d2 mkII now. MicroReach stylus and very short diamond cantilever. Really great MC cartridge! Even two previous models are also very nice (Ruby and Diamond), but my versions of them all were Micro Reach (this is how Dynavector called MicroRidge profile :)) |
mijostyn Styluses do not wear out ...There are only two ways to eliminate wear on a phono stylus: Don’t use the cartridge, or find a way to eliminate friction. If you’ve found the latter, then you’ve solved the perpetual motion challenge and can become wealthy beyond your wildest imagination. I never have to clean records.Maybe you never remove your records from their sleeves and actually play them, which would also explain your claim that your stylus never wears out. Do you live in a lab-quality clean room? That would also explain how your records remain immaculate. Otherwise, your records aren’t clean and you either don’t know it, or accept that they are are "clean enough." I do not buy used recordsEven brand new records can benefit from cleaning. Have you ever been to an LP pressing plant? You might be surprised, because records aren't made in clean rooms. |
Yes, the quality of the diamond is important as is the condition of your records and how you play them. I have never worn out a stylus and I have a medical microscope to keep an eye on them. I have 4 cartridges now and I do give one away occasionally if I decide I do not care for it. The cartridge I use the most is an Ortofon Windfeld Ti. The best styluses are going to be very small (less mass) and glued right to the end of the cantilever (again less mass) Chakster is right. The styluses with the greatest contact areas will wear down slower if their azimuth is set up right. Clean, static free records is the key. I always use a dust cover and a conductive sweep arm. Styluses do not wear out and I never have to clean records. (I do not buy used records) |
"I listen to records about 30 to 40 hours a week in my home office.
" Wow! That's some serious listening. The advantage of the SS is, you can sent it back for a rebuild -$300. You'll get a year of so if the cart's really seeing that kind of use. A "like new" cart every year, seems reasonable to me-if you're that dedicated to record play. Consider going down a notch on model, and the rebuild is less. Boils down to how much you value LP playback, and how it sounds. Think of it as a consumable item, such as brake shoes on a car. |
@mjcmt Please read again what i said, Elliptical stylus is the worst, just next step after Conical, even if the diamond is Nude and Very Well Polished. There are so many better diamond profiles after elliptical to upgrade the sound and lifespan of the stylus. So Elliptical is just starting point, your cheapest ticket to high-end sound. It is very well explained by JICO about their SAS profile here Nude Elliptical stylus must be replaced after 600hrs of use MicroRidge stylus must be replaced after 2000 hrs of use Feel the difference. But the key point is not just a life span, but more important accuracy in sound, better detail retrieval and less distortion. You can also look at the stylus under microscope to realize that Micro Ridge or MicroLine profile is completely different in comparison to the simple Elliptical profile. While the MicroRidge is the most expensive profile you will be fine with Shibata or Stereohedron (nowadays called Paratrace). |
You need a cartridge with the best stylus profiles like: MicroRidge MicroLine Fritz Gyger VdH Replicant 100 S.A.S. Stereohedron LineContact Shibata Vital III This list can be bigger, but you get the idea, what you have to avoid is Conical and Elliptical Advanced profiles like MicroRidge can be used for more than 2000 hrs, your Nagaoka MP200 has Elliptical tip and it can be used for 600 hrs. |
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