LittelFuses Series 285 AUDIO/MEDICAL Quality

 +1, on that Atkinson piece.

Interesting article nonoise, thanks for linking that!

Gotta love the sound of crickets.

"......the same fuser snake oil s**t"           That's the Naysayer Doctrine preacher's outlook, on the 20th Century's Physics.      Gimme that old-time religion, gimme that old-time religion........(one can almost hear the Wonder From Down Under, singing it from here)!       

For all the objectivists who rely solely on measurements like those that John Atkinson posts in his measurement reviews, here's his latest on measurements:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/spectral-x-contamination-problems-op-amp-chips

It seems that even the smallest differences in measurements exact a penalty in sound quality when it's all summed up.

All the best,
Nonoise

Na, just the same fuser snake oil s**t 

105 responses.

Is there ANYTHING  new to be read here?

@brubin    I'm sorry, but the reductio argument really doesn't work.

A speck of dust sitting on a finger-tight brass screw holding one of the drivers *might* make a difference, but it's well beyond the threshold of audibility, even to bats.

Back in the 1960’s, those of us blessed with the access to institutions of higher learning, were being taught the truths of wave/particle duality, dielectric constants/polarization, and attending lectures on the theories of virtual photons, Quantum Electrodynamics and the latest (back then) on wave/signal propagation, outside of conductors and that said conductor only acts as a waveguide.      As I mentioned yesterday: I’d be interested in hearing what (if any) measurements have been taken and/or what experiments have been conducted, by the Naysayer Evangelists, or their Popes, that aren’t based on an Engineering/Physics understanding of electricity/electromagnetism from the 19th Century (ie: Ohm, Maxwell, Faraday, etc).      You Naysayer Doctrine preachers are still trying to push electrons through a wire/conductor.      Even Wiki-Scientists are aware and attempting to reconcile the aforementioned, with other, older, theories!     PROVE that none this affects what we’re hearing, in our systems, with our ears and I’ll be happy to stop asking.      ie (for anyone interested in facts, rather than faith):   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_electricity      Gimme that old-time religion, gimme that old-time religion, etc.

Provide details of the experiment - what system did they try it with, including Amp, Pre-amp, source, cable information. What are the variables of your testing?

As mentioned:
 - we found that defective plating or weld/solder affected the sonics
 - we found that reseating fuses just like any other connection affected the sonics
 - we found that soldering fuses just like any other connection affected the sonics
 - we surmised that a nearly blown fuse could negatively affect the sonics, but were never able to conclusively determine

We did not find the fuse brand, geometry or anything else made a difference when using quality fuses and holders.

Foolzers claim improvements readily attributable to not performed pedestrian maintenance issues and which can therefore be discounted for lack of rigor.

Foolzers claim improvements readily attributable uncontrolled environmental issues and which can therefore be discounted for lack of rigor.

BTW, Power Conditioners DO make a difference. NOT always positive.

More that once, I've been seduced only to shortly thereafter determine apres more divers material, "This is crap!"

Monty Python deductive reasoning for a Witch (or Fuses, Cables etc)

1. We know this women is a witch because she looks like one.
2. We know this women is a witch because she dresses like one.
3. We know this women is a witch because she has a wart.
4. We know this women is a witch because she turned someone into a newt.
5. One burns witches.
6. One burns wood.
7. Witches burn because they are made out of wood.
8. Bridges are made of wood.
9. However, bridges are multiply realizable. They can be built from stone. [Implied] Building a bridge out of the woman will not determine that she is made of wood.
10. Wood floats in water.
11. A duck floats in water [bread, apples, very small rocks, cider, gravy, cherries, mud, churches, lead].
12. If the women weighs the same as a duck, then she is made of wood.
13. The women weighs the same as a duck.
14. Therefore, the woman is a witch.

https://youtu.be/X2xlQaimsGg?list=PLRYO685WratD1n1EE7txVW8_PTrYDvjBG

georgehifi

... don’t trust the "snake oil" or voodoo that fusers preach ...

Actually, the so-called "fusers" aren't preaching. They're reporting what they hear.

The "preaching" is done by the "refusers," who seem to believe they might win some converts if they shout their faith-based beliefs often enough.

Let's just be clear about what's happening here.

"YOU GOT NOTHING" doesn’t carry the same impact or religious fervor as, "TRUST ME" and shouting, "AMEN!", but- close enough, Wonder.     CHEERS!

read my lips, YOU GOT NOTHING

btw: About PCB boards and Dielectric Absorption, Constants and Polarization (some things the Naysayer Doctrine would like to ignore): https://pcbprime.com/pcb-tips/controlled-dielectric/ 

No you got that wrong, it’s more like don’t trust the "snake oil" or voodoo that fusers preach.
Because they don’t have one respected Electronics Engineer that designs their hiend audio equipment that will back up their "sonic improvement" findings by posting here.

There’s that 1800’s technology and belief system, rearing it’s head, again.    You forgot to say, "TRUST ME" and to shout, "AMEN!"

"So why is there a belief that speaker cables and interconnects are not thought to be the same?

Really!! you really don’t know, they have EE laws and measurements, things like resistance, inductance, and capacitance. A fuse is just a 1/2" of piece or wire in a glass tube with none of these measurements that mean anything, just like all the pcb tracks on a circuit board inside you audio equipment.

The TRUTH might actually set you free. Your ears and a Satisfaction Guarantee are the greatest danger to their cult’s existence

All fusers have is expectation bias, from spending >$160 on a 50c fuse

"So why is there a belief that speaker cables and interconnects are not thought to be the same?    Why should we not treat them as integral system components?    I propose that they do make a difference, how do I know?         because I tried it.    If you agree on cables then why not power conditioners or fuses etc.   Ultimately, the goal is the sound improvement.   Why does it work?    Because it is the reduction of distortion in the sound signal."                        EXACTLY!                 The goal of the Naysayer Doctrine and it’s preachers, is to prevent you from experimenting on your own.     The TRUTH might actually set you free, from their antiquated pablum.     Your ears and a Satisfaction Guarantee are the greatest danger to their cult’s existence.      Then again; we are supposed to be free to choose our own religion!

But if you don't mind can others discuss it?

Yes they can, but once the fuser BS spews forth, then the gullible need to hear from the other side, just as much..

I am going to try another point of view. Follow me on this path to see where we end up.

I believe we can all agree that not all speakers produce the same sound or perform the same way, correct? Yes. Why? They have the same fundamental components, tweeter, mid and bass drivers, and crossover. Quality parts and design make difference - Agree? Yes.

Same with your AMP, pre-amp, source equipment (phono, DAC etc) Agree? Yes.

So why is there a belief that speaker cables and interconnects are not thought to be the same? Why should we not treat them as integral system components? I propose that they do make a difference, how do I know? because I tried it. If you agree on cables then why not power conditioners or fuses etc. Ultimately, the goal is the sound improvement. Why does it work? Because it is the reduction of distortion in the sound signal.

Don't knock it!     "Cheers" means, "G'bye!"      That's GOOD news!

And when he says "Cheers" after one of his nasty tirades, I want to hurl...

Georgehifi,

I am sure you have strong beliefs on the subject and from your posts, it is worthless for you to pursue.  But if you don't mind can others discuss it?

Funny how he attempts to speak like he’s some kind of authority when it couldn’t be farther from the truth. He hangs out here, perusing the threads, waiting to pounce like a stalker.

His only comeback is his vaudevillian act. All he has is a quiver with only a few arrows that keep missing the mark, so he resorts to insults from having lost the argument oh so many threads ago.

All the best,
Nonoise

Once again: the Wonder From Down Under (a Naysayer Doctrine, snake-oil handler, extraordinaire) offers nothing of value, in 500 words or less, to a thread (always failing to surprise).

This is a hobbyist’s site, not a scientific forum

It’s also not a "snake oil" or "voodoo" forum. BTW It’s in the "Technical forum"!

Everyone’s pieces of audio equipment was designed by "Electronic Engineers" that used all the laws of electronics to design and measure them, and if you have any piece that wasn’t, your a fool for buying it.
Show one of these "EE’s" statements that back up the "sound differences" heard by the snake oil fusers here.

@Admin is it possible for Audiogon to have a new forum called, "Snake Oil" forum for those strange expensive products that some say they can hear huge benefits, that can’t be explained by respected Audio Engineers.

Cheers George

The Earth is flat and we never went to the Moon. 

I don't mind people saying it does not work - unless they never tried it.  Short of crystals on equipment, if someone tried to upgrade their fuses or power system and did not receive positive results then share the details.  Provide details of the experiment - what system did they try it with, including Amp, Pre-amp, source, cable information. What are the variables of your testing?   "It was a different sound, but I did not like it" is valid data.  

ieales

We naysayers have all heard audible changes without changing anything.

That can happen.

Purveyors and aficionados make extravagant claims without any scientific or engineering support other than their say-so.

This is a hobbyist's site, not a scientific forum, so no one here is obligated to provide any scientific proof to you. Of course, that doesn't mean that you can't offer some evidence of your own.

"What NEW properties are discovered that invalidate the old?"        Is it that you have no comprehension, can’t read, or chose to ignore the obvious truths stated in the piece on Science/Tesla, I provided?        More likely: you never read it.       Perhaps, you have absolutely no knowledge of 20th Century Physics, at all?       Typical of the Naysayer, you’ve changed the subject.     OK: When have you ever, "proven" your, "ability" to hear, to ME?     All you Naysayers have to offer, is your faith-based religion and, "TRUST ME!"    Those offering 30 Day, Money Back, Satisfaction Guarantees, are enabling people to conduct experiments, in their own homes, with their own systems and ears.     That’s with no risk of financial loss, an eternal damnation, or- need of the Naysayer Doctrine’s salvation.      Gotta admit; you snake-oil handling, religious fanatics can be amusing.        Kind of like a Greek tragicomedy.

^
What NEW properties are discovered that invalidate the old?

We naysayers have all heard audible changes without changing anything.

Claimed changes are all explainable by pedestrian, non-exotic effects. Purveyors and aficionados make extravagant claims without any scientific or engineering support other than their say-so.

The proponents frequent resort to denigrating the naysayers ability to hear in spite of their  decades  of proven ability.

I'll pose the same question, as well as my observations here, hoping for an answer:    The Naysayer Doctrine (a faith-based religion) clearly has it’s roots deeply embedded in, "measurements" and, "engineering experience".          I’d be interested in hearing what (if any) measurements have been taken and/or what experiments have been conducted, by the Naysayer Evangelists, or their Popes, that aren’t based on an Engineering/Physics understanding of electricity/electromagnetism from the 19th Century (ie: Ohm, Maxwell, Faraday, etc).           The same cult was taking shots at Nikola Tesla, back in his day!      https://nextexx.com/2020/06/18/why-do-scientists-hate-tesla/           He still managed to take the world, kicking and screaming into the 20th Century, with his inventions.         A good read: https://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Invented-Twentieth-Century/dp/148122980X

Mr Rubin,

My dear old Nan often counselled "A fool and his money are soon separated"

George, others and I are trying to help you keep yours. As engineers and audiophiles with countless years investigating audio phenomena, we have a pretty good idea on what is buckwheat.

The fuse phenomena, and innumerable other tweaks, are easily explained by connector rejuvenation and other non-Merlinic majic.

Cables are easily explained by reasonably simple math. However, few bother. When perceived performance was less than expected, "burn in" was invented. What is happening likely connector related, outgassing and oxidation. After the prescribed NNN hours, the sound changes. Replug them and start over.

Decades before burn in was discovered, professional electronics and recording engineers were refreshing contacts. Some studios went so far as to solder every possible connection for the absolute degradation minima.

Make a bundle. You'll need it.

Good for you, you'll do well.

You really have no idea, do you. At 23 posts all about fuses your heading down the wrong path .

Myself and others here have tried to give you good info, and you tossed it away because it went against the voodoo snake oil fusers rubbish that you really wanted to hear, and got angry about it, your just another sorry fuser, who can’t see the forest through the trees, goodby.

Like the Amish where technology ended in the 1850s, technology ended for you in the 1970s?  

What now you think stiff power supplies don't matter in amps. 

https://ibb.co/FHrQJmM
https://ibb.co/ZV5ZfkP

Brubin,
I have no experience with the power conditioner you mentioned but run my mono blocks through an Audience power conditioner. Everything else goes through an exactpower transformer & Acoustic Revive power strips. It works well & sounds terrific. 

Like the Amish where technology ended in the 1850s, technology ended for you in the 1970s?  

Mr Rubin, I was power conditioning in the 70s.

I have a power conditioner. I chose it from 4.

When I moved and changed amplifiers, it made no difference as the amp has excellent filtering capability and my local power is not LA DWP garbage. It’s now a very expensive power strip to control the HT.

Delude yourself as you see fit.

Let others who have the experience with power conditioners provide content.

I said power conditioners are good for source equipment sunshine.
But like I said an amp to sound it's best especially in the bass it's power supply has to be as stiff as it can be. By adding any sort of power conditioner between it and the wall outlet introduces some series resistance and reduces that stiffness further. Remember forest and trees. 

I love it. 
We have a "do the math" and an " over my head"  guy.   Look if your happy with what you have great.  Let others who have the experience with power conditioners provide content.

your assumption is that all power conditioners add resistance.

Like I said, "over your head" typical fuser's retort 

 Anything will, nothing won’t, stop being such a fuser for a while, and see the forest for the trees.

A bigger issue is fast transient signals that exceed the short term capabilities of your amps power supply. This voltage drop in milliseconds adds audible distortion, particularly in a premium system. The combination of a high-quality power conditioner and high-quality power cords noise is to suppress noise.

Nonsense. The line frequency is TOTALLY UNRELATED to program demand. The power supply diodes conduct ONLY at the PEAK of the AC line waveform. The capacitor bank supplies the DC. If the capacitor bank voltage drops below output demand, distortion occurs in the output stage. Input stages have typically have secondary regulators and run at lower voltages than output stages.

A power conditioner may remove some HF noise from the line if there is any. Regardless of noise, it will add impedance to the power transformer / AC line interface. For lower power devices like sources and control units, no biggy. For high current devices, the effect varies with the line and transformer impedances AND THE DEMAND. Take home a few power conditioners and a few amps. The number of combinations is PwrCon X Amps. Some improve, some don’t, some have no effect. Move to another location and the game starts anew.

DO THE MATH!!!

georgehifi  - your assumption is that all power conditioners add resistance.   But let us assume you are correct.  How much resistance?  
Resistance is always a factor including the cheap power cords used. 

But let us go down the bunny trail and say you have a 15amp RMS supply from the wall outlet.  There as very few power amplifiers manufactured regardless of price or topology that will exceed 5 amps RMS at full volume.  But even if our system has a maximum draw of 10 amps (which is a lot) and your power conditioner adds a hypothetical resistance adding a  1/4 amp draw.    Would you have an issue?  

A bigger issue is fast transient signals that exceed the short term capabilities of your amps power supply.  This voltage drop in milliseconds adds audible distortion, particularly in a premium system.  The combination of a high-quality power conditioner and high-quality power cords noise is to suppress noise.

wolf_garcia   

LOL clever

nonoise

+1 and Thank You

This quote says it all, to bad these close minded people continue to pollute the community and ad Nothing positive.. this is why the world is like it is now days.
“Less harmless are those audio enthusiasts who are least secure: those whose toxic rage at a world that does not accept the authority of their opinions—a world that persists in enjoying recorded music in ways of which they do not approve—accomplishes nothing other than making our hobby seem repellant.”

--Art Dudley