@dgarretson
Linear tracking turntables, whatever happened?
Curious as to the demise and downfall of the seemingly short lived linear tracking TT.
Just from a geometry point of view I would have thought a linear arm should be superior to one with a fixed pivot that sweeps through an arc.
Obviously there is much more to it than that, sort of the reason for this thread.
I am genuinely interested in trying one out for myself as well.
Just from a geometry point of view I would have thought a linear arm should be superior to one with a fixed pivot that sweeps through an arc.
Obviously there is much more to it than that, sort of the reason for this thread.
I am genuinely interested in trying one out for myself as well.
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Hello Gunther, well I´m not exactly in the barrel but as an retired gardener that is almost like ... Jack in the Green: https://youtu.be/yZTJH1qZm_Y We will be delighted to invite you to join our little conversation ... in nearest pub : ) |
Thanks for the plug, Lew and Raul. Regarding Trans-Fi, I haven't kept up with Vic's latest innovations, but am all in on its excellent performance independent of price. As a DIYer, I eventually migrated from the stock alum sled/cradle with knife bearings, to a customized assembly with point bearings and a lightened sled with a thin, reinforced carbon fiber shell around a foam core. The goal was to decrease horizontal mass, which in the stock setup is low relative to most linear tonearms but high relative to a pivot arm. To take things further, a friend with a medical instruments business fabricated a wand-less vertical bearing for the sled that accepts a standard detachable headshell. This idea is versatile in terms accommodating interchangeable cartridges, but lightweight for low-compliance cartridges. My overall experience is that Trans-Fi is at the intersection of commercial and DIY-- a fine and economical solution for anyone curious about linear tonearms. |
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Dgarretson @dgarretson very interesting comment DG. For someone that is considering this tonearm, can you describe what you mean by DIY ? I mean, assuming it arrives in the mail, what DIY is required to get it up and running, aside from mounting it on the table ? thanks Also It is my understanding that everything remains fixed over the platter (does not pivot out of the way like the Clearaudio Linear tracker tonearm). Record Changes are done on the Terminator by "sliding" the LP's under the Cartridge/Stylus ? |
@ct0517 Its DIY heritage begins with the original design by Poul Ladegaard. IIRC, he envisioned this as a linear tonearm that could be built at a kitchen table using basic tools and standard parts from a hardware store. Vic at Trans-Fi turned that into a commercial offer, with a professional fit and finish and a steady stream of running improvements. It's humble origin should in no way suggest that the design is unsophisticated. For the purchaser, the DIY part is principally the tank, pump, and airline. This is no big deal, as all one needs is a low-pressure aquarium pump(mine is a Rena 400), a gallon plastic petrol can as a smoothing tank, silicone tubing, and brass nipple fittings from Home Depot. The low operating pressure has design advantages, and avoids the complexity of the high pressure pumps associated with captured air bearings(e.g. extraction of moisture and compressor noise.) Vic includes a Delrin tower on which to mount the arm base to a turntable plinth. He builds each tower to the dimensions of platter height and armboard of the customer's TT. Alternatively, the customer can fabricate a tower with better metal materials such as brass or stainless steel. I made a custom brass turntable base that drops into the stock collet of a Kenwood L-07D. This preserves the VTA adjustment of the original Kenwood tonearm. Set-up is straight-forward, but it is critical to align the air manifold such that the stylus tracks a perfectly straight line from the perimeter of the LP to the center of the record spindle. For a template, I took a 12" strobe disk and scribed a radius from the center of the spindle hole. Once the manifold is painstakingly aligned, you wouldn't want to ruin that by pivoting it to change records. The cue bar raises the wand enough to allow careful sliding of the LP in from the side. This is only a hassle if the turntable has a really tall spindle. One must carefully dress the flying tonearm wires through the supplied gantry to avoid torqueing the wand as the sled travels across the air manifold. This takes practice, particularly with high compliance cartridges. One area ripe for DIY improvements is adding mass to the front of the flat wand in order to optimize vertical effective mass across a wide range of cartridge compliances. I found it useful to machine a kit of small brass weights that can be dropped into the large holes in the wand between the cartridge mount and the vertical pivot bearing. It's a neat high-performance arm. IMO, it's only shortcoming is that it doesn't leave enough room to mount additional pivot arms to the TT. |
@ct0517, to add to Dave’s excellent comments, and in the cause of clarification, let me say no, record changes are NOT made by sliding the LP under the cartridge/stylus (and the arm wand onto which is mounted the cartridge). At the end of an LP side, the wand is returned to it’s rest position, at the far right end of the arm’s manifold, where it is out of way of the LP. The LP DOES however need to be slid under the manifold, which is locked in position over the back of the LP, about half way between it’s center hole and it’s perimeter. Other linear trackers avoid this by having a longer arm wand, making it possible for the arm’s main structure to be located beside the table’s platter, not positioned over it. The manifold being suspended over the LP makes possible a shorter arm wand, which has benefits (lower mass, inertia, and resonances) and one penalty (greater changes in VTA and SRA when navigating warps, resulting in possible "warp wow"; a table providing LP flattening---via vacuum hold down or a clamp---is good for the arm). One thing I like about the Terminator is the arm wand/cartridge/stylus facing the operator, rather than being 90 degrees perpendicular as with other linear-tracking arms; makes cueing much easier!---Eric. |
DG/BDP - thx for the replies. Bdp24 - The LP DOES however need to be slid under the manifold, which is locked in position over the back of the LP, about half way between it’s center hole and it’s perimeter. Eric - My turntable shelf was custom made. It sits 18 inches high and when I load or remove a record I am much higher than the table, looking down. I find it an ergonomic way of loading and removing vinyl, with arms extended. Thinking about that manifold permanently fixed over the platter, I can't seem to get Beach Limbo out of my mind. I have had accidents in the past with the record and stylus. I need a clear runway when landing and taking off. Cheers |
Eric. Cleaning the record is not an issue. Cleaning the stylus however requires a one knee drop. I don't like to talk about my knees. I have runners knees. At middle age my Doc says my hearing is great, like a young mans, but my knees are old age. 8^( You mentioned that you like the armwand pointing at you. With La Platine, it is a design that can be positioned - turned, so the armwand is pointing anywhere on the clock really. Like wise the motor can go left, back or to the right. Kinda cool. I am very familiar with the short arm wand as I still own a Dy navector hybrid tonearm. I know that Bruce did a lot testing before he settled on the length of the ET2 armwand. |
Just to give you all a laugh and bring this thread back to the actual area I first envisioned. I bought an old Sansui P-L45 table in working order but no stylus. Fitted a replacement AT stylus that was correct to the AT p mount cart in it and spun an album. I am honestly shocked just how nice it sounds! For a grand sum of $55 all in. Talk about the high life! |
The description of sliding the record into place is perhaps inaccurate, only because it sounds tricky. It’s not tricky. The record must held on a slight angle and inserted into the space between the manifold beam / cue bar at the top, and the TT platter / spindle below, then placed on the spindle. It sounds much harder than it is. As soon as you have the arm fitted to the TT, it is obvious how to move the record. Try it with an old one first, or use a modicum of care, and everything will be fine. If the spindle is short, that helps a lot, which is why I built my TT that way. |
uberwaltz I used to be a short drive to Larry's at TTW. I knew Larry before "TTW" and the higher prices. I was therefore able to pick up and experiment with a lot of stuff when I was in "that phase". We talked about setting up one of the ET2's in his showroom. It never happened, and remembering back I always found his showroom unbearable due to the cigarette smoke. You don't want the tonearm, or yourself inhaling that stuff. Then found a local machinst who would made some custom for me. Then the phase came to end. You know, been there, done that. Accessories, paraphanelia can make this Audio hobby interesting, especially with vinyl and, people go to both extremes with it, as it relates to the record. Some will lock down the plastic, with multiple weights and clamps. Make it more secure than a high security prison. Then others, will try to make the record float on points. Both camps say they get excellent results. |
Well to cut a long story short I acquired a Technics Sl10 this morning in fully functional order at a price I don’t think anybody could have walked away from. Well I could not at any rate. However it has no cartridge. So any suggestions for a good p mount cart that is not going to break my bank. Ones costing twice as much as the TT are out! Let’s just say sub $100. A quick look on eBay reveals many options but I have not much idea on good or so so. I did read that the Shure m92e was supposed to be a decent performer? So any real world suggestions welcomed! |
The VPI ring clamp is not usable with the ET2 on my TNT6. I would a take a chance on this if looking for a sub-$100 p mount. Part of the Azden cartridge line. The Azden YM-P50VL that I own is an excellent cartridge. In some ways I prefer it to my favorite P-mount the Acutex 420STR. This one is the same as the Azden YM-20E (elliptical stylus). New after market styli are available. For $50 and seemingly in good shape, seems like a no-brainer to me. Good luck. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Retro-Empire-390-LT-P-Mount-T4P-Phono-Cartridge-With-Stylus-Used/20257... |
Question for you Trans-Fi and ET 2 users- what kind of cartridges have you found best in terms of compliance? I have been using fairly high compliance cartridges since i got the Kuzma Airline years ago (Lyra, then Airtight) and using this stopgap Monster Genesis, which is medium compliance, its behavior seems better suited to the horizontal play of my arm. Thoughts? BTW, uberwaltz- i use a center clamp/weight- the Kuzma table came with a pretty hefty screw down clamp, and i've been using the Stillpoints weight pretty much since it was introduced. Obviously, different set up than the Trans-Fi. |
Hi Whart et al Just as a FYI - The ET2 tonearm thread contains Yellow Sticky's of the more important information like what types of carts and compliance to use. Anyone interested can go to any Audiogon search field and type in ET2 Yellow Sticky A list of subjects comes up to choose from. The cartridge compliance information you are asking about has been covered on the the thread but it is long thread, and the Audiogon format can be hard to navigate. I just posted a new Yellow Sticky there on Cartridge Guidelines. Click HERE to view. For the ET2 tonearm there is no limit on cartridge compliance, as long as long as it is supported by the proper Armwand and I beam Leaf Spring Combo. Per the attached link. ******************************* Hi uberwaltz - just a followup on your weights and clamps question. IMO what one is using depends first on the turntable design, and then if the tonearm supports it. Per Frogmans VPI clamp example. Re; Center Weights i.e. La Platine's magnetic bearing can support 8 kilograms if someone desired. But I would not think of adding this much weight to my Jean Nantais Lenco or Technics SP10 mechanical bearings. I am also in the camp of making sure the LP is not "slippy" but allowing it to breathe. Also the only LPs I own that I can recall that are not visually flat when spinning ......are newer bought ones. After all these years and multiple center weights, I do still use an HRS analog disk. I like it. I also have some Michell/England clamps around as well. Working like the VPI ones without the need for a threaded spindle. Cheers |
Great information. I have always used and been a fan of the Mitchell clamp rather than a weight per se. Works on any spindle just about and I would have thought would not intrude in the path of any linear arm. I would think some of the taller weights would not physically fit with the design of some linear arms. |
Clamps - the TransiFi manifold beam rides about 35 mm above the platter and 47 mm from the centre of the spindle. In my setup. Therefore, any weight < 88mm (3.5") of any height would fit. Cartridges - I use very low compliance cartridges (Mayajima Zero and Koetsu) with the TransFI, but prefer the sound with a 2.9g brass weight on the nose of the wand, and a ’German silver’ (i.e. nickel brass alloy) 0.625" disk, with two holes drilled and tapped to accept the #3-56 brass cartridge bolts. This increases the mass of the tonearm and the rigidity of the cartridge mount. Also, I use MoonGel on every flat surface (wand and saddle) to reduce vibration. I’ll host a thread on mods and setup after my construction project is finished (summer?). |
I have just acquired a Technics sl10 linear tracker which looks to be fully functional and in good shape. My question is concerning the RCA out. It looks like it has a built in phono amp as the little button next to the RCA outs says mm/mc. Does this mean it cannot be used through a phono amp as there does not appear to be a bypass to this , just choice of mm or mc. Thank you |
uberwaltz - four variables to consider MM, MC, Amplify and RIAA my understanding from memory 1) it does not do RIAA and 2) it will amplify if you select MC We only want to amplify once, so there are two ways to do hook up for MC. Select MM and use your own Phono Preamp which will amplify and RIAA. or Select MC if it's a MC cart. It will amplify and plug it into the MM input on your Phono Preamp. make sense ? |
Chris Yes absolute sense especially as my patient searching just found similar information on an old thread on StereoNet Australia of all places! Apparently the aussies love these things, likely because they will play upside down.... (jk before any angry Ausmen get all wound up!) Unfortunately as the original excellent mc cart is near unobtanium and I could not find any aftermarket p mount mc carts it will be wearing an Azden YM-P20E for now. So I will just select MM and feed it into my regular mm phono stage. This was the quote I found, and then a few more posts after it expounding on it a little more "By the way, the Technics SL-10 doesn't have a built-in MC phono stage or preamp. It's a head amp/pre-preamp; gain stage only, no R.I.A.A. re-equalisation." |
Well, you know what needs to happen now uberwaltz ? I mean this is the biggest and baddest (in a good way) .....Audiophile site. If you are happy that it is set up properly and works well. (won't wreck your lps) The next step is to put it in your first system, and play a record that has history there; an LP that you are intimately familiar with. One that you know every pop on it - and expect it. 8^0 Some would not dream of putting a $50 bought turntable up against their expensive one. I think you will be surprised at what you hear. kudos for walking the walk ..so far ....8^0 |
How much all in? I won't provide any hints of what I and others hear. Will just say - look for an LP that provides you with huge Gestalt, especially toward the end of the side. Crescendo movement. Physically, a record that has grooves running closer to the spindle. The inside grooves on an LP are the smallest, tightest, and hardest to track. Look forward to impressions. |
@uberwaltz, My comments below are meant to help. I've always noticed your upgrade path and how fast it moves. If I may, I'd slow down a little. For me, I found that the more time I spend with one "upgrade" before making a move like, buying another piece of gear, the better. I do love, your love for this hobby my friend. |
@slaw I understand and take to heart your thoughts my friend! However it has just about always been my nature, patience has not always been my strong suit! Lol. But I am now in a position with more disposable income than I used to have and it is hard to resist! Kind of nice situation to be in though! The Nottingham table is a keeper forever I think and might just try out arms on it. The SL-10 may give me some experience of what a linear tracker can do as it was one of the better examples the Japanese built in those wars I think. Oh then there is the Dual 1019 idler gear drive TT as well. Yes I am a spoiled brat nowadays! |
It’s its when it’s not it’s.Clever expression of the rule, but only in writing: gibberish when spoken. I still rely on my 6th grade teacher: If it means "it is", use "it’s" — everything else is "its". I tried it. It wasn’t the SL-10, but the Mitsubishi LT-22 linear tracker. Same small tracking error (0.1°) but it takes 1/2"-mount cartridges. I put it in my main system; used LOMCs (Dynavector, Van den Hul, Fidelity Research, et al); and chose a "torture" LP: Mahler 3, whose finale taxes all arms/carts. I never heard it so clean and dynamic: it just grew and grew until I had to turn it down before the cops arrived. Overall, for less tortuous music, it wasn’t ’quite’ as good as my better rigs, but only by a bit and that ’bit’ was small. And I think it can be ameliorated, maybe eliminated, as the internal wiring has five (5) solder breaks (not counting solder at the h’shell leads and RCA plugs). Eliminate those breaks, replace with a single run of good wire, and it will be better. Make it a fixed’headhsell, and better still. Might even turn that ’bit’ into a zero (the arms I compared it to were all fixed h’shell, giving them an advantage in the results). But I now like the convenience of changeable headshells — not to mention the convenience of push-button auto-play/auto-life, which add no noise whatsoever. Shame it’s not a sexy as the SL-10 (I had one and loved it until...) |
Already have a couple of test albums selected that I know well and build towards the tighter grooves. Part of my afternoon listening today. I remembered this one (hard to forget) Played it. So does it get any tighter than THIS ? A tad over 1/8 inch. Album hint Famous 1978 Debut Album. Mercury Label. |
Picked up a Pioneer PL-L1000 Thursday. Still needs cleaning & tweaking. But damn sounds good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9pz32Mw0lU&t=9s |
Just been having fun with the sl10. Have 3 carts for it and been checking out what I prefer. Still the Adzen is tops followed by the Ortofon MC p mount cart and lastly a Sonus p mount mm ( which I think really needs a new stylus) This thing has made me lazy though!. Just pop the top, drop an album in, close the top and push start. Enjoy music. Not got around to placing into the main system yet,so much to do, so little time! |
Finally got round to placing the sl10 into my main system and what disappointment. Not because of the sq per se but what must be some mismatch in equipment although it is most odd. With the sl10 hooked up to my main rig through the GoldNote PH10 there is just very excessive sibilance that cannot be tamed, even dropping loading from 47k to 22k did not rid it even though there was a lot of drop of treble and detail. Very strange as back in my second system it is perfect, listening to it now. Chalk it up to system synergy, or lack thereof in this case! |
uberwaltz fwiw In the past I have found that the more resolving a system becomes, the more it can highlight set up errors with vinyl. So many moving separate pieces. If it is happening with all the records, and not just a few, and the other room was fine; then I suspect that your system/room 1, is more resolving, and the SL10 deck will therefore require fine tuning for that room. Better adjustment of SRA, VTF, Azimiuth. Too much VTF can affect SRA. Also, audiophiles that like to use the type of Speakers, that are normally found in Recording Studios; these speakers will reveal more of the good, and the bad. But hey, since it seems to have found a home in your other room ...... **************************************************** Top causes of Sibilance From Soundsmith 1. Worn stylus/damaged stylus 2. Fouled stylus 3. Low end styli (conical) 4. Improper antiskating (PLEASE FOLLOW OUR INSTRUCTIONS - DO NOT USE A TEST RECORD) 5. Improper azimuth (far more critical as styli become more esoteric in shape) 6. Improper VTF 7. Bad tone arm bearings |
Chris You could well be right and the older sl10 with a used azden cart may well be suffering from many of the symptoms described under your main causes of sibilance. Absolutely as the second system total cost is less that the cartridge on my main system it will be much less resolving and likely just does not show up these deficiencies. |
UW So the previous post dealt with the mechanical. We also have the electrical, and IMO, the Technics SL10's internal preamp quality and condition is suspect, and its artifacts heard in the more resolving system/room. I can see the DIY Audiophile bypassing it, eliminating that "baggage", with a loom direct from the Cartridge to your reference preamp. But a warning, as this Audiophile rabbit hole is akin to running naked through the woods. Audiophile bears lurk... |
Bergmann is NOT german. It is Danish......plug and play ttt’s (manual) there is also to mention: HOLBO, Pre- Audio and Zorin. The Zorin is about to be available in the US and EU late 2019/early 2020 - heard through the grapewines. .The concept and development of full automatic and good sounding ttt’s died with the compact discs entry. Models from B&O, Technics, Studer/Revox and ex. Pioneer are sought after and priced pretty high. IMO they are way better players than many mid priced overhypped manual decks offered today. Sorry guys not to offend anyone just sharing my experience. With the available technology today it is for sure possible to manufacture a killer full automatic tangential turntable. They will not show up yet because they are still milking the cow producing horrible high priced manuals. If I polish my crystalball I think that Technics or Pioneer would be the first who offer such. A revised Technics SL-10 / Pioneer P-1000 with or without riaa, revised tonearm, headshell etc. Sign me up :-) |