Line Magnetic 219ia vs Mc225

Jkull,
I view it this way, many people have/are using the Cornwall with a "wide" array of tube amplifiers. Overwhelming they report very satisfying outcomes, that’s significant and also encouraging. Could the LM 219ia or 508ia be the exceptions that won’t pair with the Cornwallis successfully? It’s possible, but I think unlikely given the "many" tube amplifiers that have been successful across a wide user database.

Of course I nor anyone else can guarantee any outcome, I believe that the odds are strongly in your favor. Although not identical pairings, just how different could the LM 219ia-Cornwall be from the LM amplifier -La Scala you recently heard? Believe me I see the point Al raises and it is a legitimate one. The testimony of legions of Cornwall owners with tube amplifiers spread over decades should provide you some measure of confidence.
Charles

To clarify further, I’m not saying that the impedance variations of the Cornwall will "hinder the sound." Most speakers have significant impedance variations as a function of frequency, in varying ways and to varying degrees. I’m just saying that a given tube amplifier is likely to sound somewhat different with the Cornwall than with many or most other speakers. I’m not saying that any such difference will necessarily be either for the better or for the worse with a given LM or other amplifier, or that any such difference would be more preferable or less preferable to you or to any other listener. I’m just saying that the sonic character of a given LM or other amplifier when used with the Cornwall stands a good chance of being somewhat different than what others may report when assessing the same amplifier with other speakers.

As far as the La Scala is concerned, after several minutes of searching I couldn’t find an impedance curve, and I have no particular knowledge of its internal design. So I can’t provide any insight as to how similar its impedance characteristics, and the resulting interaction of those characteristics with a given amplifier output impedance, may be to those of the Cornwall.

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al

Oh i see. Your honing in on the quality of sound reproduction that I may actually yield, not the production of unwanted hiss, hum etc etc. Basically, youre saying that due to the up and downs and impedance dips of the cornwalls, it may hinder the sound.  

Might I ask you this then... Consider the pairing with a set of la scalas.  Would you mind giving me insight as to if the impedance curves created by this speaker would concern you as much as cornwalls would?  Thank you

Jkull, yes, I recognize that. To be sure it’s clear, though, my previous post relates purely to the tonal and sonic characteristics that will result from the particular amp/speaker combination, not to noise or other "unattractive and avoidable additional characteristics." And of course preferred tonal and sonic characteristics will tend to vary widely among different listeners, different rooms, and different ancillary equipments.

My point in that post is basically that sonic comparisons that are reported based on experience with the various amplifiers that have been mentioned may not hold true with your particular speakers.  There are technical reasons for that, as I indicated.

Regards,
-- Al

As mentioned above, I just listened to a line magnetic 216 through la scalas 2 weeks ago. It was dead quiet. 90% of ppl running cornwalls, and there is a tremendous amount individuals running them, run them with tube amps. There are hundreds of members on the klipsch boards running all sorts of pp and set amps with their cornwalls, without any unattractive and avoidable additional characteristics.

One more point I would add relates to the impedance plot for the later version Cornwall II that is shown on page 12 (pdf page 14) of the paper I referenced in my previous post. It can be seen that the impedance varies from around 5 or 6 ohms in much of the bass and mid-bass regions, to more than 20 ohms throughout most of the upper mid-range/lower treble regions, and to as much as 75 ohms in parts of that region.

Given the relatively high effective output impedance of nearly all tube amps, and the wide variation of effective output impedance among different tube amps, what that means (assuming the earlier Cornwall II has similar impedance characteristics) is that interactions between amplifier output impedance and the speaker’s impedance variations over the frequency range will very likely cause a given tube amp to sound significantly different with this particular speaker than with many other speakers, that have significantly different impedance variations. I have made that point in a number of other threads in the past, with respect to other proposed amp/speaker combinations, but I would expect it to be particularly true in this case. And the author of the paper makes similar points on pages 19-22 (pdf pages 21-24).

So that is a particularly important reason why if at all possible it would be desirable to audition the candidate amp(s) with the specific speakers you will be using.  The amp's intrinsic sonic character is only a part of the story.

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al

Al. Yes they are 60's Cornwall 2's so I presume are the earlier version, so 100db. Good to know 

I have sold my previous speakers, and will be picking up a pair of 60’s vertical cornwalls this week. 102db obviously means that i do not have to consider wattage as a factor at all. I listen at low to moderate levels generally.

A further point in regard to the possibility of amplifier gain and noise issues arising with this speaker. The presently produced Cornwall III is spec’d at 102 db/2.83 volts/1 meter/"8 ohms compatible," which if the 8 ohm figure is reasonably accurate corresponds to 102 db/1 watt/1 meter. But I suspect that the speaker in question is the first of the two versions of the Cornwall II that were produced, which several online sources indicate was spec’d at 98.5 db/1 watt/4 feet. That corresponds to 100.2 db/1 watt/1 meter, rather than 102 db.

So that 2 db difference will be at least slightly helpful with respect to the possibility of gain and noise issues arising with the chosen amplifier.

Also, this paper may be of interest. Although note that the test results it presents are for the second version of the Cornwall II, that was introduced ca. 1981.

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al

That is why i mentioned the LM 210ia as well. 8 w/channel with 300Bs. A guy about 2 hours away has one available at the moment. It is more power than I would need surely. Tonally, Im clueless how it would compare to the 219 or 508 of course. 

Jkull.
Yep! Let your ears guide you as I believe you'll find that both LM amplifiers are really good sounding and it's a matter of which one you connect with musically.  Both of them have an abundance of power/headroom for your 102 db sensitive speakers. The truth is that at typical/reasonable listening levels you'll only be using tiny fractions of 1 watt of power.  In fact I'd wager that you'd seldom exceed the "first" watt of power unless you really crank up the volume. 

In your situation the emphasis is truly focused on the quality of the amplifying power and that's what you'll get with either of these 2 amplifiers.  Truth be told, you could get by easily with a good quality 8 watt SET amplifier. The two another amplifiers will of course provide you more flexibility if you were to ever change your speakers. Once again I'll say that you're headed in the right direction. May as well get a high quality good sounding power amplifier now and minimize the spector of "upgraditis" down the road. 
Charles 

That's the one wig…. LM 508. I recall another thread (may have been here), where the person went to an LM dealer and heard the 518, 508, and 219. He chose the 508, and 219 as his favorites. Just one persons taste and opinion, for fwiw. Charles- The T & F RA may have been the one. It was smaller than an LS 3/5. I was really impressed. 

Okay. I may arrange to have a listen to the 508 and 219 in the next 2 days in this case.. The closest retailer of the LM line did bring this model up on the phone, spoke very highly of it. I’ll have to see what my ears prefer.

I didn't get to hear the LM 508 although the dealer had it the same day that I heard the others. I was curious, and it is physically beautiful. A lot smaller than the 219ia. I would be curious to hear it, but I doubt it would top the 219ia.

Yes Charles, it is in a different league. I know what you like, and I think that if you needed more power, which you don't, you would really like this amp.

@ fjn04
It's LM508IA, utilizing 805 output tubes, 300b, 6SN7 and 6SL7 and I love the sound of this amp; quite magical... 

Trenner-Friedl are exceptional speakers, I heard their RA Box speaker and it was terrific. 
Charles 

I heard the newer LM integrated a couple of weeks ago. Sorry, I can't recall the model. It sits equal (or close) in price with the 518IA. I also really liked the look in black of this one. I believe it uses the either the 211 or 845 and 300b tube. I was very impressed with the sound of this amp. It was driving a Trenner and Fredell speaker. 

Hi Roxy,
I've read where people who've listened to both the 219ia and 518i reached the same conclusion as you. Essentially the 518 is "very" good however the 219 is in a higher tier.
Charles 

If that's the case, you're doing what you need to do, at least with the amp. The only way you can really tell is to try the components first hand. I would just keep in mind not to be too surprised if your preamp and sources may need to be adjusted. Depending on how they're setup, they may work fine. I can tell you from experience, its just not fun to be blindsided by a problem that you had no idea would even be an issue. Not only do you put a lot of  money into a system, the amount of time and research that goes into all this can be substantial. 

Jkull,
Al and mb1 audio raised legitimate caution in regard to gain and sensitivity issues and the possibility of excessive noise. It is reassuring to know that you heard a LM amplifier driving very sensitive (104 db) La Scalas with such a fine listening outcome. The Stereophile measurements cited by Al would raise reasonable doubt regarding compatability. Your direct listening experience seems to have resolved that concern, assuming that the LM amplifiers measure similarly. Nothing beats actually listening to a component/speaker. I believe that you’re headed towards sucess. Your recent experience is consistent with what others have reported when using high sensitivity speakers. 
Charles

mbl. I see what you’re saying.. and I can’t dispute you, as it very well may create a lot of noise... I can say, I did listen to a line magnetic 216 loaded with gold lion kt88’s through 104 or 105db la scalas just 2 weeks ago and there was no hiss, hum, or unattractive noise what so ever. We listened to a variety of cd's as well as digital files.  Very detailed and beautiful imaging. It was a nice sound indeed. A local let me come by to hear it actually as I was considering his la scalas but have decided for cornwalls due to the 15" cone vs the folded horn bass.

I auditioned the Mac 225 with Dahlquist DQ 20s many years ago for a good while and really liked the way it played music, although it certainly wouldn't be considered uncolored. But it was enjoyable and that counts for me.
Just 3 weeks ago, I had a long listen to the LM 219ia on the Devore Oragutans, and I think this is just a superior amplifier. So beautiful, but adaptable to music of all types, an even though it is delicate, it has a great feeling of power in reserve; the feeling that it can handle anything. It is layered, and quiet, and just plain enjoyable. I felt as if the music was coming to life in front of me, and I was forgetting about the amplifier. And this was with the stock tubes.
I stated this before, but I did audition it with the LM 518 on the same day on the same speakers, but to my ears, there was no competition. The 518 sounded course by comparison , and lacking in other areas. If I had not heard the 219, I probably would have though that it was good.
I love the Cornwalls, and I bet that it would be an incredible marriage.

[Edit: I composed the following before seeing mb1audio’s post just above].

Hmm. The comments by mb1audio prompted me to find this Stereophile review of the Line Magnetic LM-518ia. (I couldn’t find reviews of any of the other LM amplifiers that included measurements). With respect to that model, at least, a couple of things strike me as being significant concerns if the amp were to be paired with 102 db speakers:

1)The measured signal-to-noise numbers are definitely in the worrisome category, given that 102 db speakers will be used. I note that the reviewer used the amp with a number of different speakers, but I’m pretty certain that none of them are rated higher than 93 db. JA’s comment:

Switching an A-weighting filter into circuit improved these [signal-to-noise] ratios to, respectively, 65.6, 67.4, and 68.8dB, which will be barely adequate with high-sensitivity loudspeakers.... Repeating the spectral analysis with the volume control at its minimum setting didn’t lower the noise floor. This suggests that the noise occurs after the volume control, which means that, unlike other amplifiers, reducing the volume won’t improve the S/N ratio.

2)Another of JA’s comments:

The maximum voltage gain, measured into 8 ohms, varied with the output tap, but was appropriate for an integrated amplifier: 40.2dB (16 ohm tap), 38.6dB (8 ohm tap), and 36.5dB (4 ohm tap).

In most circumstances those numbers are indeed appropriate for an integrated amplifier, but are significantly higher than I would consider to be optimal for use in conjunction with a 102 db speaker. The result may very well be having to use the volume control on the amp, and/or the volume control on any source components that provide a volume control, at undesirably low settings.

Unfortunately detailed specifications or measurements don’t seem to be available for the other LM models that have been mentioned. But given the foregoing the comments by mb1audio raise some very valid concerns IMO. Hopefully reports of user experiences involving the other models and similarly efficient speakers can be found.

Regards,
-- Al

I don't think I'm explaining myself correctly here. Aside from my comments about how to use comments and reviews, I'm not debating sound quality. That's beyond the scope of most of my comments. I'm saying that if you don't match your components properly, the system won't work. Good or bad sound is just irrelevant. You need a system that will work.

I asked why Shindo puts gain pots on their amps. The simple answer is, they need them. With high efficiency speakers, gain has to be considered at every level. Having the right amount of gain, for each of the components in the system, is critical for it to work. First, you need basic volume control. I'm sure we all understand that with a pair of really efficient speakers and a powerful amp, you can have a situation where the volume control is way too sensitive. Turn it just a little, and you get full volume.

You guys are not considering are all the amps in the system.   

" I listen at low to moderate levels generally. Even 2 watts will have the cornwalls blaring."

You're right, and that's where the problem lies. The speakers are so efficient, its easy to forget there is a power amp in your phono cartridge, phono preamp and line stage, aside from the one that actually drives the speakers. If your speakers only need 2 watts to get them going, its technically possible to drive them with a good line stage. In practical terms, this means your speakers are the equivalent of a powerful microscope. You will hear things with these speakers that you would not normally hear with less efficient designs. And what you end up hearing, besides music, is noise. If you don't have the gain set properly for each component, you can end up with a great deal of noise to go along with your music. It can be on a scale that makes your run of the mill ground hum, that would drive most people crazy, sound minor.

Someone above mentioned you need high quality, clean sounding equipment. Absolutely correct, but with high efficiency speakers, its not enough. As clean as the Shindo amps are, they still feel the need to put global gain settings on their amps. Without the ability to adjust gain for the amp itself, you can still have noise issues regardless of how expensive and well made the amp is. Same thing for your sources and line stages. For example, I have a very good CD player. It does come with its own volume control, but the main reason I bought it, is for the global gain settings aside from the volume control. Most of the time it gets used with speakers similar to what most people here are using (efficiency wise). I have a pair of speakers I sometimes use that are 94db. If I don't open up the CD player and lower the gain, you get a hiss so loud, you can't enjoy the system. But understand, this has nothing to do with how good the CD player is. It's a 10k Stereophile A+ unit. (If I remember correctly).

So, just as an example, I know I can take my CD player and a pair of Shindo amps, connect them to your new speakers, and get the system to work properly. Will the system sound good? Maybe, but we're not at that point yet. Please don't think I'm trying to start an argument here. I just have a little experience with some of the problems you can encounter with components like this. Not everyone has a CD player that has the type of adjustments mine has. This could be a real problem for someone in that the system just won't work. When I say you need to try the equipment first, it's not for the luxury of better sound, but just for basic functionality. 

I have the 219ia and the 518ia. They are great. Drive B&W, Sonus Faber and Harbeth with ease. Excellently well made. If they were made in the US you could triple the price and not blink.

Excellent idea to go listen to these various LM amplifiers. Let us know your listening impressions. 
Charles 

Charles, i didn't feel you were being argumentative with anyone. All is good!

migueca. I have considered this amp as well.. Had a dealer highly recommend the 508 as well.  I may take a drive in the next 2-3 days to listen to the 219 and 508...  

Hi jkull,
No arguing tone intended at all, just an open discussion. Sorry if I came across as contentious. I avoid personal spats on these forums.
Charles

I am not familiar with the Mc225 but having auditioned the LM219 several times, I can say that this amp is a marvelous piece of gear!
It is very well built (like a tank!) using very good parts. The original valves are not the best in the market, but are fine. The looks is something subjective - I like that Industrial-Frankenstein style - but the general quality and the sound that comes out of it are fantastic!
I heard it driving speakers of all sorts, low efficiency to high efficiency and it always sounded clear, powerful and smooth.
I think it will be a good match for the Cornwalls, but there's nothing like a real audition to determine that.
Now something different but related: the Line Magnetic LM508ia.
This amplifier uses the 805 valves instead of the 845, giving it twice the power. It still makes use of the 300B as drivers and although it is not as refined as the 219ia, it has more grump and speed for certain types of music -  like the "very aggressive forms of rock" :)
I am telling this because I was in the quest for a nice SET that could thril me with all kinds of music (I also like to listen to cello, baroque music, classic guitar, and also hard rock and other electronic sounds) and I think that the 508ia is a better all round amplifier.
If you have the chance, listen to them both and compare.

Mb and charles i am valuing both of your inputs!   No arguments needed here!  The marantz will be replaced as the next priority.  Thus at this point i will be utilizing the integrated pre amp in the 219ia, and will be opting for a tube phono stage.

Hello mb1 audio,
I don't believe anyone posting here has suggested your input is wrong,  different perspectives are expected on these forums and is  how information is gathered.  I happen to think that his speaker and LM 845 SET is a very reasonable match with the potential to be quite sucessful.  Jkull acknowledged that the Marantz is for temporary use. As far as I am concerned his pathway is a sound one.  It is not clear to me what informs your caution.
Charles, 

I don't think you guys ever dealt with systems that use very efficient speakers. If you have, you were extremely lucky, or had someone who knows what they are doing help. Let's say the OP buys one of the amps, gets the new speakers and uses his Marantz as a line stage and phono preamp. He sets everything up and now has a hiss that's so loud it renders the system unlistenable. Do you tell him that it wasn't covered in the review? Low output amps and high efficiency speakers are a field unto themselves. If someone came her and posted that they plan to buy a pair of Magnepan 20's and match them with a $300, 200 watt/ch, entry level receiver from Best Buy, and are just not sure if the Sony will sound better than the Pioneer, what are you going to tell them? I'm willing to bet everyone here would have the good sense to say hold on, you need to learn more about this before you make a big mistake. That's all I'm doing here. What difference would it make how the sound quality of the Sony sounds compares to the Pioneer, if the amps go into protection mode the second you hit play on the CD player.  

" Any input by those familiar with these two amps OR with push pull/SET amp comparisons in their own setups, please chime it with advice. I do appreciate it!"

This is the question that was asked. Just because I'm giving a different answer than everyone else doesn't mean I'm wrong. 

jperry- i was intending to use the phono stage in the marantz for a moment, to soon be replaced yes.

mb1, i do acknowledge your statements and realize that synergy between your equipment is vital. as far as the trimpots. i dont believe i could answer directly as to why they put trim pots on shindo amps. All i know is they are used for calibration.

Forum feedback is helpful, and taking some suggestions or input with a grain of salt, of course, needs to be done. I do like to hear input from others whom have experience with particular pieces, or are knowledgeable about their capabilities. 

I think the OP (jkull) is also looking for some good advice as well, but may not know the right questions or how to interpret the answers.

The Line Magnetic is a very good sounding integrated amp and either (I have heard both) should match well with the Klipsch speakers. The OP could use the phono section in the Marantz until they buy a phono preamp or a preamp with phono built into it. I would get the 219ia, because I like the 845 tube sound better and I also think it will be better with more aggressive music.

mb1 audio,
Do you really believe that jkull is merely seeking pats on the back? I don't get that impression, rather he is attempting to establish a database for 2 amplifiers he has interest in owning. Reviews and forum feedback is a practical way to gain information.  It has been very helpful to me over the years.  You have to begin somewhere and listening to a product isn't always readily available. 

I purchased my amplifier, speakers and DAC as a result of owner feedback combined with reviews and it worked out fabulously. Other components I own I was able to hear prior to buying. 
Charles 
 

"The marantz is not a receiver/AV so to speak, but a pre. None the less, if has tons of video signal components, and will be replaced. Now as far as the sensitive cornwalls.. The most unbearable in this chain would be SS components in concern with the kt77 tweeter and ability of the horns to be shrill or overly bright with my previous SS amps.. I will be adjusting my components and sources further more. I have heard a line magnetic 216ia with lascalas recently and it was a nice sound and very listenable"

"Trim pots? On an amplifier? That's just adding another potential source of noise. It's much better to just select components that have the proper amount of gain for the rest of your system. "

"Trim pots are common in some Japanese low output amplifiers. Shindo amplifiers are some of the most quiet I have ever heard. "

"Regards to trim pots and worries of signal noise. The line magnetics are right up there with the shindo’s in performance believe it or not. Charles1, thank you for your reply. This is the sort of supportive advice i was looking to extract. I am leaning towards the 219ia."

Not every quote I list is yours. I put them in because they are relevant. I had a good reason for saying what I did in my first post. If you want to buy a bunch of components based on reviews and opinions, that's your choice. Besides, it allows some of us to get really good deals here on Audiogon.

Where I think you went wrong, was understanding what I said about the functionality of your system. To be honest, if you put all that stuff together and it just sounds bad, you're doing well. I know that's not what you want to hear because you're looking for a certain type of supportive advice, but I'm not one to pat you on the back and tell you you're doing the right thing because that's what you want to hear. There's plenty of other people who will do that for you. So I'll leave you with just one question. If you choose to answer it, you may gain some info that will help you make some decisions.

Why do you think they put trim pots on Shindo amps to begin with?

Sounds like a smart approach. I use the W.E. Replica 101d tubes  in my Line Stage and they’re clearly an upgrade in sound quality across the board. Well worth their additional cost.
Good luck,
Charles

How about Atma-Sphere M60?

Charles, i have read just that yup.  The Psvane's aren't terribly pricey from what I've seen, so thats nice. I have read that the tubes it comes with are 'alright', but that things sure do open up with this circuit with a swap of some higher quality tubes. If I shoot for the 219, i will run it with the stock tubes for a few months, and then swap others in, this way I am adapted to the current sound, and can really appreciate the improvements that the other tubes may yield.

Jkull,
One other factor to consider is the 300b driver tube is audibly important in this circuit.   Those familiar with the 219ai  say this driver along with the 845 output tube are sensitive to the quality of tubes. If you decide to go for this amplifier people report that the Psvane W.E.Replica 300b and 845 are exceptionally good. 
Charles 

Even though I have long been and continue to be a fan of vintage tube equipment, in my mind the decisive factor choosing between the MC225 and the LM amps that have been mentioned would be the condition-related risks associated with the approximately 50 year old MC225.  And even if you were to find an example appearing to be in excellent condition and/or well restored, the possibility that you may frequently find yourself wondering if it is truly performing as well as it once did.

Also, as I recall the MC225's reputation for providing outstanding sonic performance in relatively modern systems was largely established and solidified during the 1980s and 1990s, when roughly speaking it was just half of its present age.

Finally, as always I would attach great credibility to the comments by Charles1dad.

Good luck.  Regards,
-- Al
(Former owner of a stereo pair of Marantz 2, Marantz 9, and Mac MC30 monoblocks; also a 7591-based Scott 299C, Pilot SA232, and many other well regarded vintage pieces).  

Regards to trim pots and worries of signal noise. The line magnetics are right up there with the shindo’s in performance believe it or not. Charles1, thank you for your reply. This is the sort of supportive advice i was looking to extract. I am leaning towards the 219ia.

Steve Huff actually made the comment than he felt this 24 watt/channel SET amp drove his 86db sonus fabers better than the 300watt SS monos that he owned.. Obviously due to the high quality transformers and current flow through this amp. He felt this was the only set amp he had ever tried that he felt could almost drive virtually any speaker. We know there are limits to this statement, but it gets its point across.

jperry

Trim pots are common in some Japanese low output amplifiers

Quite so! But that doesn't make them a good idea.

Jkull,
Given your stated sonic objectives and listening priorities I'd go for the Line Magnetic 219i  (LM). By all accounts it is exceptionally well made, uses high quality parts, premium grade transformers and very robust power supply. SET circuits by default are simple and minimalist thus a straight and uncluttered signal path. 300b driver tube for the 845 is very smart. 

Reviews and word of mouth via owners has been enormously enthusiastic.  I believe that this amplifier will provide a combination of SET purity, transparency and nuance along with very ample grunt, bass control and current capacity for your particular speakers. Tonality and naturalness should be truly top tier. 
Charles 

Trim pots are common in some Japanese low output amplifiers. Shindo amplifiers are some of the most quiet I have ever heard. 

jperry1

One of the very important considerations with very efficient speakers is that the amplifier has to be very quiet, and having trim pots on the amp can also be helpful.

Trim pots? On an amplifier? That's just adding another potential source of noise. It's much better to just select components that have the proper amount of gain for the rest of your system.

mb1- My system was originally designed for home theatre and 2 channel but I have recently moved into a separate room to change things to a 2 channel only. Thus, my next move after these speakers is to get rid of the marantz for that very reason. The marantz is not a receiver/AV so to speak, but a pre. None the less, if has tons of video signal components, and will be replaced. Now as far as the sensitive cornwalls.. The most unbearable in this chain would be SS components in concern with the kt77 tweeter and ability of the horns to be shrill or overly bright with my previous SS amps.. I will be adjusting my components and sources further more. I have heard a line magnetic 216ia with lascalas recently and it was a nice sound and very listenable. Very dynamic and detailed.

One of the very important considerations with very efficient speakers is that the amplifier has to be very quiet, and having trim pots on the amp can also be helpful. I agree with MB1audio, trying before you buy will be important so you get a good system match.