Let's talk music, no genre boundaries
This is an offshoot of the jazz thread. I and others found that we could not talk about jazz without discussing other musical genres, as well as the philosophy of music. So, this is a thread in which people can suggest good music of all genres, and spout off your feelings about music itself.
Yes. People get locked into other endeavors also. A pitcher pitches a perfect game. A basketball player scores 40+ points. When I was teaching poetry, that was the hardest thing to teach. How to get locked into a poem so that you're no longer thinking. Kobe Bryant said to Pau Gasol, "You're the best center in the world. Stop thinking and shoot." In music, it's the same thing, and musicians touring and playing every night probably don't get locked in all the time. Eddie Harris was during this recording, and you've reminded me that I have some Eddie Harris albums I haven't played in years. Tomorrow. My pleasure. |
A very lucid French jazz pianist about A.I. invasion of music... You can listen with auto-translate in English, "Ultimate danger of A.I., synthesis and predictions" : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9Zc5z0IRrU
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I saw Les McCann in a small venue in the mid seventies. He was highly charismatic. I attribute this to his ability to embody both what could be called the sacred and the profane. Earthiness and soaring spirit. the body and the soul. Of course, one could say this about a host of Black artists who grew up in the church and then utilized their ability to channel a certain type of magnetism into songs that explored the dynamics of sexual relationships in a way that may cause us to question whether the spiritual and the physical are two sides of one coin rather than wildly divergent opposites, as they've been long portrayed by various religious traditions.
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Before Western religion dominated the west, the Greeks and probably others used to have Dionysian rituals which included music and sex. And now that you mention it, I think that is one of the problems I have with the "classical" period of classical music. It is too purified. I don't think the sexual aspect of music only came from Black churces. Later, of course, it was part of the blues. But if we look at the Scotch-Irish with their wild dancing, and I think they ifnluenced country music a lot. Klezmer music had some bawdy Groucho Marx type humor. And of course we can't forget Gypsy music with women throwing up their skirts as they danced Flamenco. A number of composers were influenced by Gypsy music, but after the 18th century. As we get into the 19th century with its romanticism, many folk traditions were drawn upon. Even a bit earlier, Haydn drew on folk traditions which included the sexual aspect. Here's a guitar concerto written by Rodrigo and played by Julian Bream. You might have heard it before. The second movement (I think) has the theme used in a very popular Miles Davis piece. |
Why playing the notes even perfectly well is not enough playing any composer but fell short in particular in Scriabin... Understanding the motives behind the notes is fundamental, the musical time dimension of the piece is given birth by the way the musician understand the motives... An example of good understanding by a Polish pianist : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-VgyjLS3ok&list=RDeHPFrCJP6c4&index=2
Here also Merzhanov genius shine in Scriabin : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZbmTrEr7v0&list=OLAK5uy_kcBQlc_uGF33KC-Hx9PHSlh_visu4qmls
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In this stunning "Welte Mignon" and "pianola recording" in spite of the limitations of this kind of recording process we can even sense and feel the almost "jazzy" feeling of an improvised spontaneous irruption of another "time" than the physical one, a moment which is neither past nor future,not even momentaneous but more like an irruption of something out of time,a musical motive, in physical time itself... Scriabin himself playing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsBoxTpk_dc&list=RDvsBoxTpk_dc&start_radio=1 sonata no3 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bstDVo92Io&list=RD6bstDVo92Io&start_radio=1 |
Perfect description of the vast majority of the performances of guitarist, Allan Holdsworth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcPbmPM7epY
As a good friend and a top LA studio musicians said about Holdsworth: "For me, Allan Holdsworth was the most innovative improviser of all time on ANY instrument. The great jazz soloists (McCoy, Brecker, Freddie Hubbard, Trane, etc.), all had predecessors on their respective instruments that they copped licks from and modified with their own voice. There clearly was no guitar lineage leading up to Allan's approach. This freak landed ship with a completely new vocabulary not based on anything that was already established. No blues, pentatonics, bop, post-bop...NOTHING"
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I was talking about artists who grew up in the church and then turned to secular styles, such as a Aretha or Ray Charles. They carried over a certain "spiritual" fervour/intensity into their "secular" music. The resulting "hybrid" blurs definitions and presumed dividing lines. |
I knew that's what you were talking about. I was trying to broaden that out, because I think that spiritual fervor is in so many types of music. It usually comes from people who have been repressed, though. Brazil had slavery. The Gypsies have been repressed in many societies and their music is known to have a fervor. (I don't know if it's religious, though.) I would like to draw the line all the way back to people living in caves, but I can't. Like Bill Mahr--"I can't prove it, but I know it's true." |
@simonmoon , I share your admiration of Allan Wordsworth. Amazing guitar player and highly individualistic and innovative musician. Personally, I would be tempted to temper your friend’s assertion about his influences somewhat. As you know, Jazz styles and their vocabulary are evolutionary. Players build on what came before. Influences are particularly difficult to detect across instrumental families, however. Interestingly, Holdsworth first wanted to play saxophone before settling on guitar. He cites the mighty Coltrane as a major influence; at least inasmuch as the quest for a totally individualistic style. He also credits the music of Stravinsky and Bartok as influences, You may find these comments from a JazzTimes interview interesting, Regards.
“He just kind of completely turned my life upside down,” Holdsworth says of Coltrane’s influence on him at the age of 18. “I remember when I first heard those Miles Davis records that had Cannonball Adderley and John Coltrane on them. It was fascinating to me. Coltrane’s playing in particular was a major revelation. I loved Cannonball also, but when I listened to him I could hear where it came from, I could hear the path that he had taken. But when I heard Coltrane, I couldn’t hear connections with anything else. It was almost like he had found a way to get to the truth somehow, to bypass all of the things that as an improviser you have to deal with. He seemed to be actually improvising and playing over the same material but in a very different way. That was the thing that really changed my life, just realizing that that was possible. I realized then that what I needed to do was to try and find a way to improvise over chord sequences without playing any bebop or without having it sound like it came from somewhere else. And it’s been an ongoing, everlasting quest.” Holdsworth plays Coltrane:
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And yet Wordsworth was a great poet. The Beethoven of English poetry, in that he began the Romantic era for poetry. It's amazing the way the arts correspond with similar changes around the same time. Late in the 19th century we have Impressionistic music and art. Maybe in writing too, if we count Rimbaud. |
Here's another one for you to try on your journey into classical music. "Nights in the Garden of Spain" by perhaps the most famous Spanish composer, Manuel de Falla. Like many composers in the early 20th century he wrote music that was tied to his countries identity. Sibelius did so in Finland. Dvorak in whatever the Czech Republic was called then. Aaron Copland in America. Anyway, this is a lovely piece. I chose a selection with Martha Argerich, one of the greatest living pianists. |
When I was studying poetry with Gary Snyder back in the mid-sixties, we had a discussion about why poets no longer wrote in rhyme and meter. He talked about artists tapping into the music of their society. He quoted an Arab saying, "When a music of a society dies, the society dies." The implication is that the music of the society is the foundation of the society. As an artist, one needs to understand their society's music and tap into it. I read about Rachmaninoff being upset that he was writing Romantic music in the twentieth century alongside "modern" composers like Stravinsky. Rachmaninoff was a great composer, I think, and I have read music critics say that he did incorporate modern elements into his music. The same story with Sibelius who is one of my favorite composers, despite the fact that he wrote in the late Romantic style while Stravinsky and other modern composers were changing the structure of music. Here is an absolutely beautiful piece of music by Sibelius |
Thanks for recommending Martha Argerich. I'm sorry -- should have stated earler that I've never been a fan of the orchestra. Perhaps if I had a dedicated room and a system that could present such recordings more realistically, I'd grow to appreciate the sound. Nevertheless, I do enjoy solo Classical piano, so I will seek out Argerich in that context. |
Argerich has a numerous solo piano albums. She is known for Chopin and Schumann, among others. Schumann is a hard composer to cozy up to. He died in a mental institution at 35 of manic depression, I think. His long piano works will move from absolutely beautiful melodies to dark, cacophonous passages. His wife, Clara, was a composer in her own right and an extremely popular concert pianist. She introduced a number of his works. You might look for Argerich playing "kinderszenen." It is about the phases of childhood, if I remember correctly. The early passages are lovely, then he descends into a kind of madness, but pulls out of it. It must be so hard for a pianist to express his soul as @mahgister says. |
I have Maria Pires playing Mozart’s sonatas. She is pristine in her delivery. I have others playing Mozart piano sonatas who bring out emotional depth that Pires avoids, I think. Her notes sparkle. For her, I think, it’s all about the touch and the timing. She leans more toward a Classical interpretation, where others lean toward the Romantic. Argerich is bold and powerful, at least that’s the way I hear her. I know you don’t play orchestral music (although I think you can. I used to listen to it on a $100 Sears suitcase stereo that probably didn’t go below 80 Hz.) If you were to try a piano concerto, she does a mean Prokofieff’s 3rd piano concerto. It has the most amazing build I’ve ever heard. He mastered the art of the build, rising up to a crescendo then descending. Rising up again and descending. Until finally the crescendo comes and it is extremely satisfying. |
I'm not a classical aficionado and therefore, lack your refined sensitivity and discernment when it comes to comparing different versions of a particular piece. I will say that, personally, I find the Pires recording of the Nocturnes quite emotionally affecting. I bought it after listening to perhaps a half dozen pianists' interpretations of the Nocturnes on Spotify. However, this was some time ago and I do not recall the names of the other pianists. |
I'm sure she could be emotionally affecting on Chopin. On Mozart, however, I think, although I've never heard it said, that modern musicians are beginning to play him more emotionally. I have Fazil Say playing the sonatas and it's very different than Pires. But you don't have to be an aficianado to have your own taste. And your taste might change over the years. I listened to Mitsuko Uchida play Mozart's sonatas the other day and she did a lot of "interpretation." I liked it a lot. I like Pires, too. She makes Mozart sparkle. It's fun to listen to a few different artists and compare them. Mitsuko Uchida has specialized in Mozart, but that doesn't mean she's the last word, by any means. I really like some of Geza Anda's interpretations, and I think he plays Mozart more like Pires. What I consider to be a more "classical" style. I kind of like all of their interpretations. Like seeing Hamlet done by great actors. |
Great comparison! I like all the pianists mentioned here about Mozart or Chopin... And some others... My favorite Mozart and Chopin pieces though are played by Ivan Moravec ( One of my godly saint pianists). But he never did an integral though just few pieces but very well recorded (Nocturnes) and played with a majestic control of colors... |
**** I’ve never been a fan of the orchestra **** This cannot stand! 😊 Try these on for size: https://youtu.be/LqwZzPpxA0w?si=qJwSJytsc7GnU4b8 |
Good choices. I thought of recommending Bartok’s Concerto for Orchestra. I went to a live concert conducted by Dudamel. Fritz Reiner is my top choice for my album at home, but Dudamel did an excellent job. Reiner commissioned the piece and championed it. I thought it might have been a bit too dissonent for somebody finding their way into classical music, though.Thanks for the Hindemith piece. I’ve been trying to get to know his music better. Bernstein! Interesting. I’ll stream it. We were supposed to go to the Adams concert with Dudamel and Wang, but something happened (something always happens) and we had to exchange the tickets for something else. Now I’m really sorry I missed it. |
For orchestra introduction to someone disliking orchestral work : Beethoven 6 and 7 th symphony is impossible to dislike...( you can listen to the movie "Soylent green" as an intro for Beethoven sixth symphony "Pastorale" ) The 7 th of Beethoven is irresistible masterpiece about creativity and how to become creative as life itself (seeds) moving rocks (allegretto) . Once you had heard them buy the 6 th of Bruckner by Karl Bohm among few other maestros choice the most beautiful symphony ever written...Takes off the light and listen... ( The 6th is the only symphony he never corrected and Bruckner was compulsive and obsessed by inferiority complex and corrected hundred times all his works. Curious for the greatest organist since Bach and the greatest symphonist with Beethoven) I prefered choral music all my life over orchestral works by the way... I entered into real orchestral obsession after my 6 months listening of Bruckner non stop ... I am a bit excessive ... |
I’m taking a different approach. For someone with as varied and insightful a “taste” in Jazz and other more recent genres as @stuartk , more modern works with more emphasis on rhythm (groove) and “crunchier” sonorities seems potentially intriguing. Hardly overtly dissonant in the scheme of things (Webern, anyone?), btw, and demonstrate a different potential of the orchestral sound. Once the groundwork is laid, those intrigued can explore the entire history of the music. Example: what introduced the vast majority of the recent “Jazz curious” to the genre? Jazz/Rock and Jazz/Pop. BTW, @audio-b-dog , that piece is not by Hindemith, Pacific 231 is by the great 20rh century French composer Arthur Honegger.
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@audio-b-dog @frogman, @mahgister : I feel so fortunate to have three music mentors to help me over the hurdle into enjoyment of Classical music. Thanks, guys! I greatly favor the Adams recording. This selection sounds somehow more akin to Jazz to my ear. Maybe you can suggest more in a similar vein??? I’d heard Beethoven 6th before and found it pleasant ( I utilize this "lukewarm" adjective with some humility, recognizing the fault is mine for not appreciating it as you do). I just listened to Beethoven’s 7th and this I find immediately more engaging. Same goes for the Bruckner. I'm going to explore more Bruckner. Seems I was wrong -- I do have a capacity for enjoying orchestral music. It all comes down to the piece/performance. |
I remember listening to Stravinsky's Firebird on my little, cheap college stereo. Man did I enjoy that. I think the mind is the most important compnent in an audio system. Willfull suspension of disbelief. You can fill in the bass that isn't there and the space that isn't there with your mind. Beethoven's 7th is a much more dynamic piece than his 6th which was written to be laid back. If you can find Carlos Kleiber doing it, he's considered very good. Very, very good because it took him forever to get out a recording. He broke the budget on over rehearsing. Most of his recordings are almost perfect. He also somehow managed to find as much expression as everyone else while sticking to the script. I don't know how he did it exactly. @frogman ? |
Besides being a fantastic musician, Kleiber had a gift for establishing great rapport with the musicians in the orchestra. He was greatly admired and liked by the players. That is huge. He also had a specific and relatively small repertoire. He didn’t conduct as many different works as other conductors and so dug very deep into the details of the works that he did conduct, Fantastic conductor. |
Kleiber get the allegretto of my favorite symphony to a new meaningful level...( The greatest musical orchestral movement ever written in my opinion so strong it was in his effect on the soul) I see a seed invincibly pushing rocks to grow... ( i always see music or associate it with images not as a mere poetic expression of my feelings but more like a movie, i can for example wrote a novel about the Bruckner 5th because i listened to it so much and it entered into my imaginative perception as "the meaning of life " itself as we experience it after death , because of the structure of this work especially the final fugue recapitulating and integrating each movement from the beginning. Bruckner rival Bach mastery of fugue here in a way Bach never did.) For me the 7th is the symphony , the art of Beethoven symphony as a creative engine with an irresistible rythm of his own able to liberate humanity from the sleep of inertia , habit, and lack of motives... Music is cure and thought meditation...( the allegretto of the 7th must be able to make some paralysed person to walk again against all odds, which other piece of music can do this? listen to it )
By the way i love Scriabin so much, because all his work motives core is sparking human heart to begin to be divinely creative again as Beethoven was inducing it particularly strongly in the 7th , it is clear as crystal... Beethoven soul (not his style) is Scriabin forebear...A Promethean giant inspiring another one...
«... Scriabin... Where does he come from?
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It's time to talk about Shostakovich, a 20th century composer who cannot be overlooked. I heard his 5th symphony when I was young and have always had it on vinyl, but not a great performance. I did not venture further until Dudamel had a Shostakovich year, and I heard his tenth and twelfth, I think. They were too complicated to really register. I was reading Milan Kundera's "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" a few years ago. In the book he talked about two people staying up all night to discuss Shostakovich's 7th Symphony. So, I have been listening to it since. I posted a youtube video of the piece. It's very long, and if you haven't heard it, just listen to the first movement. @frogman stresses rhythm in music, and I think Shostakovich was deeply into rhythm. |
For me the essence of Shostakovich soul as a musician are his Bach inspired preludes &fugues by Tatiana Nikolaeva...
She was a friend of Shostakovich and a giant pianist in Russia but almost unknown in the West... His playing flow from the source without any ego interference and the Bach majestic inspiration behind Shostakovich appear and makes him a brother of the German God... As anecdote Shostakovich feared so much Stalin, unlike Maria Yudina who scorned Stalin in his face about his great sins and refuse his money, that he waited sleep each night with a minimalistic luggage waiting under hisw bed in case he was deported in the Gulag... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyURjdnYQaU&list=PLiMumVBefK9IpPgqVqyJ33E4IDGiTK_-U
As an aside, Russian music is so badly known in the West , that the best bio of Scriabin (690 pages) written by an American musician who lived in Russia in 1969 , Faubion Bowers, dont even mention in his first chapter about the history of Russian Music the name of the stupendous genius Dmitry Bortnyansky (1751-1825) one of the greatest choral music composer not only in Russia but everywhere, Faubion Bowers begin speaking about Glinka...But nowadays after the stupendous recording of the Choral concertos by Poliansky it is a marvel to hear it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54VRvokl77Y&list=PLDML4XZqb7ZHN3VNnLwu__rtYZy8bWfPG
The West ignore Russia...
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Here the goddess Nikolaeva pianist concert : Listen his Ravel and his Scriabin, no ego only music : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6liIhgiSDQ&list=RDV6liIhgiSDQ&start_radio=1
Listen how she played Bach : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pKgAy7SQkE&list=RD_pKgAy7SQkE&start_radio=1
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This video 45 minutes about Scriabin life in Russian (but i listen with auto-translate in English)is well recorded enough and the interpretation are top notch... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZaj1YIHlsA
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Now the composer who fear the most Stalin wrote a sonata which is played by the woman who fear nothing save God and whom Stalin admired and never killed : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNnlzyiQRYU
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In a complete other order of idea... I can recommend you this music which cured my anxieties and which i listen each time i felt bad: it is not recreational piece nor new age piece but a real healing music repetitive and deeply penetrating : Jonathan Goldman is an expert in meditative and healing music but i tried many of his others pieces so good they are they dont reach to the level of this "medecine musical master piece".. As i said it is not a music to be tasted and appreciated it is a drug pill nothing more nothing less and it work..( it is a mantra grounded in the Christ name ) Dont listen to it in normal time wait till you will need it...We dont eat medical drug in normal time for supper... When i was ill i could not listen my favorite music because i had a weight on my head and heart, only this music could cure me....i used it for 35 years, the first time it was for severe panic attacks and after 20 minutes the worst was behind like a miracle... I dont claim it will cure you but it will help you a lot if you are spiritually or physically ill ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJRpoUk-mpU&list=RDaJRpoUk-mpU&start_radio=1&t=111s |
My favorite piano Works in the XX Century is Scriabin first, Then Shostakovich second but certainly Sorabji as a third... Sorabji is incredible genius like Scriabin but as much as Scriabin appeared spiritual guide for humanity to me as much Sorabji appear to me as a mad genius whose piece can be irritating obsessive but life changing too ... John Ogdon , a giant pianist i discovered in Busoni Piano concerto created the greatest version of the Clavicem Ballisticum but this is not for all people the works is almost 5 hours , Dont buy anything but Ogdon by the way it takes a mad pianist with ferocious gift to play this piece : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxcD2yo1nlI&list=RDyxcD2yo1nlI&start_radio=1
But the best if you dont know Sorabji the more easy piece and also one of the most beautiful, is "the perfumed garden" and if you dont like this piece you dont like piano : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vE2d28yjI4&list=RD8vE2d28yjI4&start_radio=1&t=14s Or played here by Sorabji himself..: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZs01TevxbM&list=RDVZs01TevxbM&start_radio=1
Musical time in Sorabji escape linear succession not as in Scriabin case which resemble a ladder we ascend or descend from time to eternity and back in one second, but in Sorabji case as a circular complex labyrinth existing in eternity and from which there is no escape no beginning no end, no reason, save the infinite variation itself......
By "hasard" of life i encountered personally the greatest specialist of Sorabji music many times and it enlightened me, i did not knew who Roberge was ..I was in my Busoni Faust discovery ( one of my rare favorite opera and the greatest performance of Dietrich fisher Dieskau with Schubert lieds) and i advocated for it to Roberge who answered me saying he was a musicologist specialist of Busoni as well as for Sorabji and this push me toward Sorabji ...it was 25 years ago ... Here what he wrote : «"Producing Evidence for the Beatification of a Composer: Sorabji’s Deification of Busoni" is an article by Marc-André Roberge published in The Music Review in 1993 (with publication in May 1996) that analyzes the intense and adulatory relationship between composer Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji and Ferruccio Busoni, suggesting Sorabji built an extensive body of work to elevate Busoni to a saintly status. The article discusses Sorabji’s persistent advocacy for composers like Busoni, who were not initially recognized by the musical establishment, and how Sorabji acted as a champion for them.
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Schnabel is recognized as a giant ... But here i repeat what i know and recognized when i listened to him... But you must know that i can only speak for the few musicians or composers i listened a great amount of time... to be short, i am obsessive mind and if i fall in love with a musician i cannot stop listening to him...At the expanse of others... Love has a price or ask for a duty... But you must know that i dont fall in love with many musicians, sometimes i miss or stay indifferent to true great musician...The heart is not neutral... I cannot understand why i love Sofronitsky or Yudina so much compared to others for example, be it Richter or Gilels.. it is a love affair motivated spiritually by my own soul journey... The other reason i see, i dont listen often Beethoven piano pieces and Schnabel is a giant here... I am in love with Beethoven quartets as the key to his soul... I cannot explain it ... Ask frogman, he is a musician and less obsessed than i am, more "objective" in a way and more knowledgeable ...
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I just stumble on youtube version of my favorite "perfumed garden" of Sorabji : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCs0YeBOmOQ&list=RDcCs0YeBOmOQ&start_radio=1 |
It seems that a new version of the "mount Everest" of piano work, the Clavicem Ballisticum of Sorabji was recorded and rival Ogdon majestic madness with a more deep analytical insight in the piece... I will buy it for sure... I have 20 box of Sorabi music... The clavicem box is 5 hours ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PCCGC3nFBU&list=PL9GK1dCgxUgxk-Aej5ibP6ntEdOSQq9xX Here an article of Gramophone about it :
I doubt it will beat Ogdon madness but i love too much Sorabji to let it go ...
By the way the Top Sorabji box is the incredible Ullen 100 transcendental studies 7 cd ... It is what is the heart of Sorabji for me : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsunU1Jyigk&list=PLRs_FxzJLU50ArgMv2Ykm9IUsELIYwoML If the clavicem is Mount Everest of Piano by the difficulties the transcendental Studies are Mount Erebus in Antartica, so varied, so strange, so fascinating , it is after for the beginner "perfumed garden" album the box we must buy at all cost if we love Sorabji ... For those who love Book, Roberge has written the authoritative book on Sorabji, 641 pages.the full book is free PDF here : https://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/books/opus-sorabjianum.php
There is also but harder to find books autobiographical and philosophical written by Sorabji himself ...
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Music exist in speech as its root.. Then music has no need for a goal as a tree roots has no goal save to sustain life... We are the tree. Our roots dont have goal no more than our feet. But we speaking walking trees we speak or do music to "change our own consciousness level"... Music is not just leisure, pleasure,but a sacred moral duty as speech itself. This is the spiritual content of music. Music is more about a higher consciousness level, not about "taste" so much...But because we are all different, we "taste" different flavors and stick to them.It is why thread as this one matter, we must go out of our own habits and explore other realms...
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I have a number of Schnabel albums, playing mostly Beethoven's latter piano sonatas, but also a Schubert sonata. I don't get him. Compared to the more modern pianists I like, he sounds a bit clumsy. I know I must be missing something. @frogman Can you help me understand why Schnabel is considered great? |
