I the van den Hul Grail SB a LCR phono pre amp. This pre amp is one of the best I have ever heard. Maybe even better then my previous "reference" the Pass XP-15 and XP-25.
But I have not heard them side by side.
Has anyone here heard the van den Hul Grail and Grail SB?
See for info:
http://www.the-ear.net/review-hardware/van-den-hul-grail-sb-crimson-phono-stage-moving-coil-cartridge |
I am thrilled to own an Experience Music LCR Kahn phono stage |
" is that it places only an inductor in series with the system, which has very low DC resistance compared to the resistor MANDATED in RC type RIAA "
My point in posting was to highlight the fact that not all RC RIAA implementations require that high value series resistor and that yes, removing it does yield improved dynamics, palpability, touch etc. I have heard the difference in two different phono pre's: a single ended parallel feed design and a differential series feed design. In each case switching from series to shunt resistance resulted in big improvements in the above mentioned areas.
So you are right. Providing a low resistance path through the phono stage is beneficial in my experience. I just wanted to point out that LCR is not the only game in town when it comes to doing that. You seem to have implied that with the above quote. |
Here's some more to contribute to the topic:
http://vinylsavor.blogspot.de/search/label/LCR%20RIAA
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=DIYHiFi&m=5450 |
I agree with Jfrech's analogy. The Allnic does have a palpability and involving presentation that is addicting. I have owned the Allnic H3000 for about 8 months and still learning it and still trying to figure out the best load as there are 16 options! However, with my Jubilee MC there are realistically only about 10 options but they do each present differently. |
I own a Lounge MK3 LCR phonostage. They now sell for ~$250. I believe the load is 47K ohm, 100 pF. The gain is 40dB. Works well with my Sumiko Bluepoint No. 2 cartridge. Considered one of the better budget (under $500) stages out there. I have not done comparisons so cant comment directly. |
Lewm, I've heard the H3000v in my system...and have heard the H5000 in friends systems. The H5000 is likely one of the the very best out there. The H3000v I heard definitely presented things is space with much more palpability. Just eerily real soundstage and how the instruments are portrayed...I can only guess that this is from the LCR network... |
"I would also like to hear from anyone who has actually listened to any LCR type phono"
I have listened to the Ypsilon (driven by a Lyra, on a Yorke parallel arm, S Yorke 10 TT). Mind you, I just heard it: I never had it at home.
Well, it is very detailed and gives the feeling of not adding or doing anything to the sound. Strange because it has a tube somewhere in the circuit, caps & inductors -- bu that's the impression it conveys. In other words, as if it's not in the system at all.
Sonic result: The details are most noteworthy: there is detail even within what may sound like a dynamic crescendo with another phono (say, the big Pass or the small FM acoustics). Typically, you will listen at high volume, the music is magical. I don;t know if the Y's dynamics are equal to other top phonos (or worse or better) -- I couldn't really tell.
Unfortunately, I'm nowhere near being able to afford $26k for aphono -- or anything else for that matter! |
John, I am very familiar with your association to K&K. I agree they make very fine products. However, what has any of that got to do with the price of eggs or the topic of this thread? I guess I can be faulted for not having catalogued every possible way of designing an RC RIAA network. For example, you did not mention that it's also possible to use a capacitor as the first element in an RC RIAA, tapped in series off the plate of the input voltage amplifier, instead of a resistor. Nor did I wish to turn this thread into a debate about the relative merits of each type of RIAA filter. I just want to know more about LCR type phono stages that are already out there as commercial products, and how they sound in comparison to other good phono stages. |
Not all RC RIAA phono pre's place a large value resistor in series with the signal. I have a fully differential phono pre designed by Kevin Carter of K&K Audio that does not. The large value resistors (and caps for that matter) are all shunt connected, not series. In its first incarnation this was not the case. This will get a little technical here but bear with me. The input stage consists of a pair of vacuum tube/JFET (now MOSFET) cascodes. In the original design the tubes had plate loads and the plates were direct coupled though 33K resistors to the grids of the driver tube (the series connection). With a later redesign the plate load resistors were replaced with Constant Current Sources (cascoded MOSFETs). This required changing the 33K resistors from a series connection to a shunt connection (from the plate to ground) leaving just a 10 Ohm grid stopper in the signal path.
What does all this mean for the sonics? A way more dynamic sound, macro and micro. A much better sense of touch. It brings closer the sense of real music being plaid by real musicians. I heard this change with everything else in my system the same. So I can say without reservation that removing that large series resistor makes for a big difference.
BTW, Kevin's latest generation of his single ended parallel feed phono pre the Maxed Out uses this same arrangement. You don't have to opt for a LCR design to reap these benefits. |
That's not quite correct or at least possibly confusing as written, Sqlsavior.
LCR vs RC has nothing to do with active vs passive RIAA. Either technique can be implemented in a passive RIAA filter. It's just a matter of how the filter is created, with inductors in series with the signal vs with Rs and Cs in series/parallel. |
Mordante et al, I apologize for not defining the acronym. I thought most analog aficionados would know about LCR RIAA circuits. But here goes a definition:
In analog history, nearly every commercial phono stage has been based on using RC filters to achieve RIAA equalization. An RC filter is one that uses resistors and capacitors to achieve each of the three 6db per octave "shelves" in the frequency response that constitute an RIAA correction. Most such RC-based RIAA networks require the use of a fairly high value resistor in series with the phono signal coming out of the first gain stage. And some require the use of at least one capacitor in series with the signal, as well. The advantage of an LCR network, used to achieve the exact same RIAA correction, is that it places only an inductor in series with the system, which has very low DC resistance compared to the resistor mandated in RC type RIAA networks. Capacitors and resistors are used as well, but all of these are in parallel with the signal, connected to ground. Theoretically that does less "damage" to the signal, where "damage" can mean different things to different audiophiles. Proponents of LCR type RIAA correction circuits believe that they sound better, pure and simple. However, implementing such a network presents a lot of problems to the designer. Thus = expensive.
Yes, JFrech, I knew that Allnic (in the H3000 and H1500) make LCR type phono stages, and I knew about Zanden. Did not know about Ypsilon being LCR type. All of these are VERY expensive. (Well, the Allnic H1500 is not too far off the charts.) Have you heard any of these 3? In fact, I would love to hear from anyone who went from a very fine RC type phono stage to a top of the line LCR type. I would also like to hear from anyone who has actually listened to any LCR type phono and who has an opinion about the advantages based on real world experience. |
LCR phono stages implement the RIAA equalization using passive components (inductors (L), Capacitors, and Resistors) between the active gain stages, in much the same manner as a loudspeaker crossover, instead of doing the equalization within an active stage. Some preamps use both techniques, one for the bass boost, and another for the treble attenuation. |
Maybe you could explain a what LCR phono stages are. |
Some to consider are from allnic, ypsilon and zanden... |
