Current sensing phono stages w/Rega?

I have not but the information you require is here:

https://www.aqvox.de/REGA_250_300_Tonearm-mod-humm-free-remove-signal-groundrega_mod.html

With an output impedance of 10 ohm, I don’t think this cartridge (Ania Pro) is the best choice for a current-based phono pre-amp. . .

I would recommend upgrading your cartridge: when I had a P8, I never appreciated vinyl more than after I got a Linn Krystal, and then I got a Koetsu Rosewood, which was even better.

I think 10 ohms would work fine, for one thing because 12 ohms works fine with my AT ART7, but you really do have to be sure about balanced wiring. In most cases the tonearm wiring easily adapts to balanced mode, but with Rega being British, all bets are off. The reason for extreme caution is that with no or very low load resistance on the phono end you run the risk of damage to your cartridge due to a jolt of current.

May depend on what the actual fixed impedance is on the specific phono preamp.

I believe my Aqvox is actually 10 ohms but the BMC, also designed by Carlos Candeias, is 3 or 4 ohms.

I use a SAEC C1 (40 ohms internal impedance and .4 mV output) and it sounds wonderful with the Aqvox. At least as good (but slightly different) than my Accuphase AC2 which has a 4 ohm internal impedance and lower output.

10 ohms internal impedance should be fine. 

According to the Sutherland website, the MkII version of the Little Loco, “It is “good to go” with no special concerns on turntable signal wiring.

The original little LOCO had an essentially balanced input signal requirement. The signal came in on both the RCA center pin and the RCA shell. There was a strict requirement that the RCA shell float above ground.

The newly designed Mk2 transimpedance input stage is now single ended. The signal comes in on the RCA center pin. The RCA shell is at ground level.”

@hleeid ,  I have a Seta L Plus that can run either current or voltage mode. For current mode to work really well the impedance of the cartridge needs to be less than 2 ohms. At about 5 ohms gain will be equal in either mode. Above that you will have more gain and a better signal to noise ratio in voltage mode. This does not necessarily mean that it sounds better in voltage mode. The higher the output of the cartridge it becomes more likely it will sound better in voltage mode. My MC Diamond has more gain in voltage mode but sounds better in current mode even though the signal to noise ratio is not as good. It is a 6 ohm cartridge with an output of 0.2 mv. The Ania at 10 ohms and 0.35 mv is most likely going to do better in voltage mode. 

The Lino C is a great phono stage. If you get one I suggest you add a voltage mode input.  

All these responses are greatly appreciated!!!

But now I'm not clear on my cartridge impedance working well with current sensing phono stages.

@drbond Not sure if I want to upgrade from the Ania Pro I just purchased. But thanks for pointing out the potential impedance issue.

@boothroyd I didn't know about the MK II. Will look into it.

@mijostyn Would it be better to just go with a voltage sensing unit vs. adding a voltage mode input to a current sensing unit?

@hleeid

If you compared those three phono stages on your system and liked the Konus better, then that sounds like a reasonable upgrade. As others pointed out, the higher impedance will still work in a current base phono stage, but from what I read, it’s not ideal.
During upgrades, I would look to at least double the price of the component being replaced.

@hleeid , Not at all. When Channel D adds the option of  voltage mode operation it adds an entire new voltage mode board and you have a choice of quality. It is like having two separate phono stages that use the same RIAA correction board. Unless you are sure you are going to be using a very low impedance cartridge for the duration you should add the voltage mode board if you can afford it. You can take a Lino C all the way up to 10 K if you are not careful. Having said all this I have to admit at this time the very best phonograph reproduction I have heard is in current mode. 

I am curious to know what cartridges have an internal impedance of 2 ohms or less.  My own MC2000 fits the criterion, and I know there are others such as the Haniwa that present an even lower internal R, but I would think the list is very short after that.  Also, maybe we should make a distinction between "works" and "works best" into a current mode phono stage. Hdm is quite right to point out that "works best" also depends upon the actual input Z of the phono stage.  With the 12-ohm AT ART7, which puts out only 0.12mV, you have a cartridge that is on the fence for either current- or voltage- mode.  I find that it works great with my BMC (2-4 ohms input Z), usually in the +7db gain mode.  It's a little more robust sounding into that device than it is into my high gain SS voltage-mode phono stage, but either works fine.  Don't you think it's a little severe to say that 2 ohms is the upper limit for internal R???  If that were the case, the market for current-mode phono stages would be very tiny. (Perhaps it is only a little better than "tiny" in reality.)  On the other hand, why would you want to use current mode with a 40-ohm cartridge that has 0.4mV output?  One reason would be if you don't own a high gain voltage-mode phono stage and mating such a cartridge with a SUT would be problematic (although could work with a 1:10 SUT, but preferably no higher ratio). Anyway, lots of folks seem to be using current mode with cartridges, even up to 20 ohms internal R.

The Mutech Hayabusa, which as been described as a continuation of the NLA Transfiguration Proteus, has a Coil impedance of 1.5Ω. 

I believe all of the My Sonic Labs (MSL) are under 2Ω with their Ultra Eminent EX having the lowest Internal impedance @ 0.6Ω.

ZYX Optimum: 1 Ohm

Of course the SL versions of Lyra’s range including their latest lower inductance “Lambda” series and the half-wound Koetsu Urushi Vermilion should also be considered excellent contenders.

There is an audiogon thread out there where fans of current gain have posted what’s worked well for them.

From my experience with various Sutherland Loco preamps (with an input Z of a fraction of an ohm) I’ve gotten great results with pickups up to 14Ω such as the “R” version - Denon 103R.

Those are all very expensive cartridges, and the fact remains that most current driven phono stages work well with cartridges that have internal R in the range 2 to even 20 ohms, though I would be leery of going that high myself.

All of the Ortofon Quintet & Cadenza Series are between 5~7 ohms starting at $346 & their vintage SPUs (LOMC versions) are between 2~6 ohms starting at $599 👍

@boothroyd 1+ The MSL Ultra Eminent EX has the lowest of them all at something like 0.8 ohms.

@lewm , judging by my own experience, a cartridge over 10 ohms would have so little gain in current mode that the signal to noise ratio would be pretty bad. The MC Diamond is pushing the limit at 6 ohms. The only phono stage you might get away with higher impedance would bet the Seta L20 which has a crazy high signal to noise ration and cost $60K. I can trade the Seta L in on it and purchased direct the balance would be $40K. It will fit in the cabinet and I am perilously close to being divorced. 

FWIW, the 6ohm alnico magnet Dynavectors: XX-2 MkII, TKR & DRT XV-1s are definitely favs in the Loco universe 👍

Mijostyn, you are extrapolating from “your own experience “ to a general principle. The results will vary according not only to internal R but also voltage output of the cartridge and input Z of the phono and intrinsic gain of the current driven input stage. Your report is valid for your Lino and your cartridge. I’m saying the BMC works fine with the 12-ohm ART7 that puts out only 0.12mV in terms of voltage. Thus you can discern it doesn’t make much current. Yet the +7db setting on the BMC will blow you out of the room with the linestage attenuator at 9 o’clock.

judging by my own experience, a cartridge over 10 ohms would have so little gain in current mode that the signal to noise ratio would be pretty bad. 

Clearly you have little experience.

I use a current sensing step up with a range of MC's from 3-40 ohms - ultra quiet and plenty of gain.

I also listen regularly to a Van den hul grand cru, a high impedance mc,  with the van den hul current gain phono stage - ultra low noise floor - as in deathly quiet.

I have also heard the Nibiru and BMC current phonos in a friends system.

With these 4 current type phonos - they all react differently to cartridges with different internal resistance.You cant generalise - each current type phono has to be assessed individually with a variety of cartridges.

I have a Konus 1000 Phono stages (it’s wonderful), with a Rega P10 and it’s making a very undesirable, very audible hum to my speakers. This is mainly due to Regas old school ground wiring scheme. It will not be a simple easy fix, which is counter-intuitive to why I chose this table. Supposed to be easy set and forget, which it is, at the expense and limitation of using certain phonos and carts. 

This will likely preclude me from using any dual mono, (possibly fully balanced) Phono stages without living with this hum issue. This to me, is yet another limitation to the Rega tables, and to me the P10 shouldn’t have this lack of flexibility at it’s price.

@jc51373 I posted a response to you in another thread.

My older Rega RP8 is working very well with the Konus 1000 MC.

Unfortunate that you are experiencing this. I have had my Konus and Rega set up for a while now with no issues.

The upgrade has worked out very well for me.

Hope your hum issues are easy to resolve.

Thanks, was just responding to your other post. 
 

Did you just plug yours in with no hum? 

@jc51373 Yes. I also added an inline subsonic filter with no issues.

The only change to my Rega was a new cartridge (Ania Pro MC) which was installed at a local HiFi shop.

Thanks..Which filter and where was it located in your chain?

@hleeid 

It should be possible to rewire the Rega to make it compatible with balanced, floating ground operation. All you’d need is a soldering iron, a pair of XLR plugs or RCAs where you’d solder the negative phase output to the outer barrel while also disconnecting ground, and knowledge of the OEM Rega wiring scheme.

@lewm 

thanks and yes I understand it’s possible, but I’d get a new Phono before I modify my tonearm. The real question is why doesn’t konus accomodate the wiring scheme of one of the most widely sold TT/TA brands in the world. I’d rather them change than alter my TT

@jc51373 The filter is KAB RF1 Subsonic Filter
KAB Electro Acoustics http://www.kabusa.com

Konus >> KAB RF1 >> Bryston BP 26 preamp

You mentioned:

This is mainly due to Regas old school ground wiring scheme.

Has your P10 been rewired.?

What cartridge are you using?

You’d be “modifying” the wiring, not the tonearm, in such a way as to make it suit your needs and which could always be put back to original. It’s just a thing you bought with your money to suit your needs. It’s not a holy object.

@lewm 

You're making the assumption I a) have time to spend soldering and figuring out how to out think Roy Gandy's design.- I don't...And b) that my perception of this or any other piece of hifi I own is coveted- I don't. 

But feel free to carry on with your suggestions. 

Sorry for perhaps being overly bossy.  But again, you would be doing no harm to Roy Gandy's design.  Wires is wires.  If it's beyond your skill set or your desire to do the work, I am sure you can find a local person competent to do it.  I have never owned a Rega anything, so I don't know how ground is wired, but I am sure there are other Rega-philes here who could guide you.  It has to be a very simple thing to do.  And there I go being bossy again.  The good thing is, you can totally ignore me.

No worries, I get it trust me. I am sure it's something I could do if I could find time to focus on it for a couple of days and figure it all out. 3 kids, and a busy job in real estate give me barely enough time to listen let alone tinker. Part of why I went with the Rega set up since it's relatively closed up one and done. Now this! Might as well got a table I could easily modify! 

I am sure I will track it down through trial and error, ground loops are just a mystery to most. 

@hleeid 

I am using the Hana Umami Red. My table has not been rewired, I am referring to the fact Rega uses a floating ground and doesn't use a balanced connection when I say that. 

I've tried a few combinations and the hum is still very present. Not sure how I feel about putting a filter on my system for this. Too bad because this is a spectacular PS for the money. Low level listening is best I've heard. 

@jc51373 I use the subsonic filter because my woofer cones were visibly oscillating. I have never noticed any hum.

I get the balanced connection issue now. This was something I didn't pay attention to when I got my RP8. 

But I agree with you that the Konus is really special.

Since hum by conventional definition is usually 60Hz or 120Hz, you really cannot filter it out without destroying bass response.  I don't understand "floating ground" with a single-ended connection. (You say Rega does not use a balanced connection; SE is the only other alternative.)  In an SE circuit, the signal MUST see ground or maybe that is why you have hum. (One normally gets a very loud hum if audio ground is disconnected.) In a balanced phono circuit, the signal is divided into pos and neg phases and audio ground is left to "float", which is to say there is no ground reference.

The problem with Rega tonearms is that instead of earthing the tonearm through a separate earth lead like most arms, they use the left channel negative wire ( blue ) to earth the arm ( there is a strap inside the arm base connecting the left channel negative to the physical arm).

Its a stupid system and prevents Rega arms from operating with balanced inputs.

Notwithstanding that, Rega will wire an arm for use with balanced inputs on request. I have seen this for use with the balanced inputs on an Aqvox phono.

@dover

Thank you Dover!! Yes I’d prefer them to do it since they chose this stupid method of grounding that creates limitations.

The one thing I will say for Rega is they support the heck out of their products. I love the TT so I don’t want to give it back to the dealer but I also HATE this limitation.

@lewm 

It just means it's not to earth (see plug on Rega power supply), it's floating because it's using the ground of the other piece of equipment through the RCA rather than the neutral wire of the power supply on the power supply itself. So simply put, it's a ground not attached Earth, just some other thing, in this case Chassis. 

What is the “it” in your last post?

Regardless of your definition of “it”, read Dover’s post again. All you have to do is disconnect tonearm ground from left channel ground, and then you’re free to use a balanced connection. The tonearm itself can then be grounded separately.

@dover 

Where did you get the information that Rega will make a balanced arm? Their US distributor is stating they have NEVER done that for anyone. 

If what you say is true, it's possibly because the necessary modification to the wiring (not to the arm) is so simple there would be no need to get the factory involved.

If you’re set on that phono and in the USA, try http://www.britaudio.com/contact.html for a tonearm rewire.  Or, someone local.  I would ditch the phono, myself.

I agree 100% with @plinko.

@jc51373  I like my RP8 and can only imagine how your P10 sounds.

So far, the synergy with my turntable and the Konus has been great!

Hope you find a sensible and easy solution and can enjoy your setup.

Thanks guys..I have another Phono stage coming tomorrow. Tron Convergence, which is not a current sensing. Gonna shoot em out and obviously listen for any noise from the Tron. Will report back. 

Not writing off the Konus 1000 yet, it's a really good PS. Like REALLY good. 

@jc51373

Where did you get the information that Rega will make a balanced arm? Their US distributor is stating they have NEVER done that for anyone.

Local dealer here in New Zealand - I saw the arm when it came back.

Distributors and dealers often say things that are not true because they cant be bothered to do anything outside the norm.

I suggest you contact Britaudio in the US - they do re-wires on Rega arms and may be able to help you.

@dover Will do, Thanks for the tip. 

Got the other phono stage, it does NOT have the Buzzing noise, and as I mentioned it is not a current sensing phono, rather a voltage regulating. It’s a great phono stage, but the Konus is better, and the difference is not small. Dynamics are better, sound stage deeper, dynamics and leading edges better, bass it tigher and stronger. Its like the gain is turned up more than it is on the Tron, neither have adjustable gain.

Creates a dilemma since the one that sounds better has the noise. I am going to call britaudio next week to see if they have seen this before and see if they can validate that if I rewire the Tone Arm it will solve this issue.

This morning I reviewed this thread for some reason. To sum it up, the OP reports that his Rega TT works fine with the Konus phono stage. He posted here because he is contemplating the purchase of either the Channel D Lino C or the Sutherland Little Loco phono stage, and he is aware that the Rega TTs cannot do balanced connection to a phono stage. Both the Lino C and the LL are balanced, for sure. But the point is that the OP is currently using the Konus and a Rega TT with no issues. I then looked for specs on the Konus. So far as i can tell it is single-ended, much to my surprise. However, neither the description on the Konus website nor any of the reviews is really very good at describing the technology. Photos of the rear of the Konus show only RCA inputs and outputs, further leading me to believe it is SE by nature. This explains why Hleeid has no issues. He WILL have an issue if he elects to purchase a Lino C or the original LL. (I gather the LL2 is now capable of accepting SE inputs via RCAs.) But we know there is an easy fix.

Then along comes jc51373 who is having loud hum with his combo of Konus and Rega. I and several others heretofore assumed this was due to the incompatibility of the Rega TT with balanced operation, owing to the way the Rega is grounded. (I confess that due to my thick skull and careless reading, I hadn't previously noticed that the OP has no problem with his Rega/Konus set up.) And we suggested there is a simple fix for that. JC himself seems to have assumed that his hum is the fault of the Rega. But since the Konus appears to be SE, JC’s problem cannot be that simple. JC needs to look elsewhere for the cause of his hum, maybe a broken ground connection somewhere. Funnily, if the internal connection between the tonearm body and the L channel audio ground (described by Dover)  has been disrupted, that would cause loud hum in SE operation. Just saying.