LAMM M1.2 - Feedback - Advice - Please - anyone heard these?

Thx Charles and mitch2 great info. I could almost hear the actual sound you described by reading. So well said! Thank you 

Lamm hybrids with Focal makes a lot of sense to me. As would BAT at a lower price level.

Wouldnt buy dart thinking tube preamp- really goes best with his own preamp.

Guys / Gals - does this sound right to you?

FedEx says the fees and tax to get into US from Europe is this below:

$0 to $200 = $0

$200.1 to $1,250 = $21.75

$1,250 to $2,000= $35.00

$2,000.1 plus is $1.70 each additional $1000

So it looks like $35.00 plus $17.00 for $52.00?

Does this make sense for a $12,000 unit? Is it because it is second hand and we have a good trade deal with EU? Does anyone know. 

It would be terrible if I bought this and all was good and they got to my house and said I know now owe then any $5k or something like that and I don't have the money? Yikes...

Someone on here said it will probably 4% or 6% and in that case it would be workable? 

Is there a chance it could be something like 24%? Even that would be bad but could probably pull it off but if it is something crazy more then I am in trouble?

I want to claim full amount for both insurance and just want to do the right thing. Do any of you guys know? It is so hard to get this info?

Thank guys / gals.

 

You really have to understand the Harmonized System (HS) Codes and how they are applied for each type of item you import. It's very confusing and they don't make it easy.
https://www.trade.gov/harmonized-system-hs-codes
I Import many items from around the world and for the most part I pay 4.9%. Depending on the carrier there are other "fees" they add on and UPS is the worst for doing this but it's not hundreds but they do add up. I sent back to Germany a tonearm to be repaired and the cost of the repair was $700 which I was invoiced for and UPS charged me just under $40 for Import Duties and fees.  
What I would have your person selling you the item do is make sure they place on the shipping documents "used equipment" or "pre-owned" something that shows it's not brand new. But be sure to have it valued for what you are paying and make sure the seller insures the item for that value. If he doesn't and there is any damage you will only collect whatever he insures the item for. 
Good luck and keep all posted.

(Dealer disclaimer)

Ralph keeps advertising and making misleading claims.

@inna 

Explain yourself- where on this thread did this occur? It does not appear to be in the one prior post I made, so this statement appears to be false.


The Lamm I heard was driving a set of Apogee Duetta Signatures in good condition. It was at a friend's house (Paul Bolin) who was also a reviewer. The amp was on loan from Lamm, so I have to assume it was working correctly. I heard it in comparison to an all tube amplifier that made about 200 watts- it was clearly brighter than that.  Now the Lamm uses a 6DJ8 at its input. This tube can be really variable in sound, being prone to microphonic effects (all frame grid triodes seem to share this quality) so it may well be that with careful selection, the amp I heard could have been toned down. When I've heard the amp at shows, I've heard the same brightness, but I concede that what you hear at shows may well be irrelevant. An additional caveat is that this occurred several years ago and the amp Paul had may no longer be representative.

sksos
Thank you very much. This is excellent info. I feel better.

I am leaning on pulling the trigger on this Europe purchase.

So I will make sure he lists on it as a preowned unit.

Should I claim the amount of item, shipping, insurance and PayPal fees do you think? That is what I was thinking of doing? He ended up giving me a price including all 3 of these. If it is 4.9% that is a number that works for me. It is an extra $600 but I can afford it would allow me to get the amp I want just worried it could be much higher? Do you think I should be ok and pretty safe at 4.9%? Thanks so much again ... 

You need only to claim the amount the unit costs. Shipping fees and insurance is usually not covered. Also should have mentioned that fees are usually based on where the unit was manufactured not from where the unit is shipped. The person filling out the paperwork is required to place the Country of origin on the shipping documents. 

Ok thanks it was made in Europe in Greece not sure if that helps or hurts. 

I just emailed him telling him I want to go forward with this purchase from Europe. I’m nervous and excited. I really appreciate everyone’s help and feedback. Many people don’t appreciate the feedback and assistance they can get from this forum. I do appreciate it. 
Thank you 

@fsmithjack,
Congratulations!
This is the amplifier you "really" wanted. You only live once, glad you decided to go for it.
I don't believe that you'll have any regret. 
Charles 

See the last discussion in my System here. Click the YouTube link from me, what you hear is Lamm 1.2 R

The used lamm must be much cheaper than importing Ypsilon so try the lamm first imho and enjoy it and wait till ypsilon available in US if you not happy enuf with lamm.....dart is better imho but lamm lovely too why pay for new among these  choices

The Ypsilon is an used unit from an European sourced seller. The dilemma is uncertainty in regard to the actual cost of the international duty tax. He’s heard a  Ypsilon amplifier and loves its sound.
Charles

Hmm well better deal if used from Europe but sells here usa used recently  for $9500 and $12,000 if buy abroad and voltage issue and shipping cost more too....

Comparing lamm monoblocks to an integrated gotta think lamm will make you smile at least as much

Yes I was thinking strong about Lamm for sure. Surprisingly a few folks did not think they were all that great. My fear was not that they would not be great but different then what I want. 
I just want that middle of the road sound. Very transparent and airy but with tube goodness, warmth, 3D but with grip, drive control and precision. I feared the Lamm would offer much but not enough of the tubeness. 
The Ypsilon uses 3 stages. Input, driver and output. It uses the double triode tube wired in parallel the 6H30 tube for both the first and second stage via a discrete, active preamp. All of the voltage gain that feeds the SS output is provided via these tubes. 2 of three stages is pure triode, tubes but there is more. This pure class a, triode voltage gain then feeds 2 separate amps per channel. Each channel runs 2 pure class a, single ended amps and they run them bridged opposite of each other to create their version of a push pull set up. So it has 4 single ended amps for 2 push pull channels. It has 8 different discrete transformers. It’s volume attenuation is done via their special sauce which is their home spun transformers. It’s a pretty cool set up and what gives it such an airy, warm, transparent sound with grip and precision. I just love the sound. It has bite and it is bright and relaxed at the same time. It is not bright as in too much detail but it’s just everything is so dam transparent it feels bright but it does this while being relaxed. It’s best way I can describe anyways. I just have tried to find a similar sound via tube preamps and SS amps and just couldn’t get there. 

A Ypsilon for $9500 to $12000 in US would be amazing but it’s trying to find one that is the challenge. Former sales are all well and good as guides for future pricing but one needs to find one first. They are so much much more expensive new or as demos. 
I’ve committed to the Ypsilon. Still waiting for one last shot at acquiring one state side before needing to buy from Europe. I mean they all come from Europe because that is where they are made but I am holding out hope to source one from US mainly because just so hard to know what tariff or duty tax will be and shipping is scary too but atleast they come in nice wooden crates so that helps I guess. I will update you guys on where I get it and how it all comes out. You guys have been a great help to me. Sometimes others opinions when your not sure what to do can really help. Thanks 

Lamm overpriced and underpowered.Good luck though.

Audio Research Reference 160 Monoblock, Reference 250SE Monoblock or McIntosh MC2301 Monoblock. Hard to beat in there price range 

Yes those ARC REF series mono’s are great amps but much higher price then the amps I was considering and pure tube amps, even the big boys don’t seem to get me where I’m trying to go. 
That real grippy, tight controlled bottom and upper bottom with speed and Uber precision with that dead balls on pointness that really good SS does in its sleep I think we take for granted until we listen to a pure tube amp that is. Even the great tube amps that come close are still are missing part of that. 
Everything is bigger and wide and rounder and fatter and a bit more diffuse even with the excellent all tube amps. 
I guess I’m a hybrid guy because I need both and just won’t give that part up but also must have at least some / enough of what only tubes can provide. I started with SS and then when went over to tubes. I could not believe how I ever lived without tubes then moved up to really really good SS and just could not believe how I could love tubes and then well... Ended up wanting more then even great SS and spent some time with Ypsilon Hybrid and realized that’s it. It’s a tube lovers solid state amp or a solid state lovers tube amp or better yet it’s nails everything I need about SS while providing enough tubes to satisfy that need and all while being the best sounding amp I’ve ever heard. That is why I’m scowling the planet for one.  
The Mac’s? I’ve not heard those Macs you named. Not those particular amps but the ones I have heard just didn’t really seem to be something I wanted. 

@ fsmithjack,

I first heard Ypsilonn components at the 2011 CES and was immediately impressed and found them to be special. I’ve heard them a few times since then and my opinion hasn’t changed. For what they do and what you’re seeking I doubt that you’ll find complete satisfaction with the other well meaning recommendations posted here. Very fine amplifiers in their own right but not the Ypsilon gestalt you have had first hand exposure with.
Charles

Some really like Ypsilon/Lansche match. Stage III cabling. Different sound. Different from, say, Lamm/Kharma with Purist cabling or from D'Adostino/Wilson with Transparent cabling.

I’ve never heard a Lansche speaker - those have those unique plasma tweeters right? I don’t even know what that is? Lol.


The others I know and have great respect for. I used the Ypsilon with my Magico S5 MKII and at that time I had a full loom of Stage III cables - on loan - not mine. Kraken PC, Gryphon IC and Magnus SC. It was awesome. Now at this time there was a window where I had other amps I was selling but still had and went back a and forth with. Pass Labs XA160.8 and Soulution 530 and the Phaethon. 

Now with the Magico’s overall I preferred the Phaethon but the 530 grabbed those drivers in way only Soulution can and I think overall was a better amp for those speakers. Those Magico’s were big and stupid heavy and gangly and sounded best pulled out way further into my room then my wife was real happy with. But mostly over time I started to find them a bit polite and just sort of got bored of them.


Then I heard the smaller, cheaper, much brighter, more raw and quicker Focal’s. The 3’s were more like the Magico’s. Great floor standers but the 2’s were more like little rocket ship monitors with bass. I always loved and overall prefer the monitor sound and or that of 2 ways. I think that quickness and precision to the image but really it’s the overall coherence / honesty of the image and its presentation I buy into more. That feel of unity in the form of point source.
Well that’s why I bought the 2’s vs the 3’s. The 2’s are these bright, powerful monitors on Steroids. Not as sophisticated and overall dynamic or does it grab all the inner details like a better and more expensive Magico, Wilson, Rockport or the like but dam these little bright buggers are quick as hell. They stop, start and turn around and upside down quicker then any of them. The problem is they are bright as hell. You need to tame them. You need a musical source and warmish amplification but if tamed well they are right in my wheel house.


I’ve learned what I like through so much trial and error. No longer looking for the best sound but the best sound for me. What I want. Take what I want most in a sound and give up what I must to get there. Others may not be willing to give for what I want. They may need what I’m willing to give.



I think what has colored this perspective more then most was years back when I went in a hole hog total other SQ direction and switched to high efficiency full range single driver speaker and SET tube amps.
These blue my image. There is magic there. Pure Magico there and I was smitten for some time for sure. That Magic is just hard to describe but it was there and I learned what is important to me. Their transparency and image precision and tube Magic was amazing.



I also learned over time that the SET / FRD approach just gave up overall more then I was willing to give but I leaned. I recommend everyone try it at one point. I had some pretty good gear too. Rethm Saadhana V3 speakers were no joke. Audionote SETs. Creamy stuff.
So now it’s like I need part of that sound into what I want.


So for me a cheaper, quicker floor stander with a brighter tweeter that is hot but with super transparency with huge extension that acts more like a monitor with bass is much more to my liking then a much expensive traditional floor stander.
I guess I’m lucky to have dug out what I like but now need to get it all together in my home and in my room with the right amp.

Checkout CAT JL7 or JL5.   They can easily drive your speakers with tube goodness triode power.

Jump on CAT great sound for your system or just keep rapping about everything else.

The McIntosh MC2301 definitely have the grip and tight control of the right bass. It’s fast, accurate, tight and will hit you when appropriate songs require it to do so. I’ve been fortunate to try several different high end amplifiers (tube and SS) and for less money, I found out that the McIntosh MC2301 did it right. It is completely different design from McIntosh other tube amplifiers and it is Quad Balance with 300W per Monoblock. It was there first Quad Balance tube amplifier by McIntosh. The other is the Hybrid 901’s. The McIntosh MC2301’s are $24-25K and the Audio Research Reference 250SE and the Lamm M1.2 are between 32-34K. If you buy used, all are around the same price of 15-16K. If you’re looking at Lamm, you can definitely afford all three of these amplifiers new or used. I’ve owned the Lamm M1.2. They sound good. I have the Wilson Audio Maxx2 speakers so I was definitely looking for an amplifier that can satisfy me at all levels especially grip and tight fast bass (keep up with actual recording of the album as it was meant to be). That’s what the McIntosh MC2301’s provided me hands down. Now the other that I’ve heard others say but I have not tried was the PS Audio BHK Signature 300 series Monoblock amplifier. It’s a hybrid. A family member is running them with the KEF Blade speakers. I hope this helps in your quest.

Ebm 
ive owned the legendary CAT SL1 MK III preamp years back and loved it. Not that long ago I almost bought a much newer and improved version but they have no remote and I am way too lazy to get up and change the volume all the time even though I could have worked around it with my Bricasti volume control but still it was enough to pass. 

I have also heard their mono amps and think they sound fantastic but in a real world set up like mine where my audio room is not just a pure audio only room for just me? I have a family with younger children my audio room is the great room over my garage with cathedral ceilings and big old L shaped leather sectional where me and my wife and kids spend tons of time together and thankfully so. 
I want to share as much time as possible with them when I’m not working. They love music and my audio system and my system is hooked to my 75” TV as well. It makes for a fun family set up. It’s a pure 2 channel set up but still works and sounds great. No interest in HT what’s so ever.
Those CAT mono blocks are just ridiculously obnoxious for a family room.

They don’t fit in my solid tech racks and are just huge - have tons of thin glass waiting to get stumbled into and throw tons of heat. I can’t think of a more absurdly non family friendly audio item on the planet regardless of great they sound. I do admit though that sound wise they are awesome but those thing are flame throwing beasts. 

You obviously have no interest in this thread. You ask a question that shows you have not read hardly any of it? Thats fine too but really?  I mean if you read it you would know I was targeting a price range that is no where near a $32k dart. If you read it you would know if I had that money I would just buy a new Ypsilon and be done with it. 
I’ve only head Dart once and they were with Magico’s yawn ... so hard for me to tell. They sounded like Soulution just not as good was my opinion but I could be wrong. Many people like them as long as you don’t need to drive low impedances. Why is that? Why do the struggle with low impedance. None of the other big boys have a problem with those? Me I don’t know why? I bet they sound great with right speakers. What are you a dart dealer or something? 

I think the folks that mentioned CAT are right from a sound standpoint for sure. I think they bridge the SS and tube sound as good as anyone but they are just monsters and would make my wife freak but they sound amazing. Also out of my price range. 
Just last month I burned through 3 amps and 2 preamps but these were US buys on reasonably available items. I plenty, I’ve bought sold more then on this site so not sure where you get I don’t buy anything. 

They don’t fit in my solid tech racks and are just huge - have tons of thin glass waiting to get stumbled into and throw tons of heat.

Aren’t you describing LAMM M1.2?  BTW, CAT JL5 is stereo, auto bias and probably all you need.   IMO, what you want and need doesn't exist. GL!

@joecasey,
You may have missed it above. He has written several times in this thread that he's heard and loves  the Ypsilon. So in fairness his wants and needs do exist. 
Charles 

Then why create a thread seeking advice on LAMM M1.2 and not just buy the Ypsilon? 

Gotcha thanks , well I am no pro poster so my bad. Was trying to write what I felt is all. Didn’t mean to get under anyone’s skin. It’s not really my thing well I guess it shows. 

Joe casey - I explained why. They are same price and was looking for a specific sound and was thinking about buying Lamm M1.2 because it’s local in US and Ypsilon is in Europe and I was afraid it would get damaged in shipping form Europe but mainly because I don’t what the heck the tax and duty is coming in. Some say 4% and some says 28%. 
Honestly, if I a bunch is people told me how the great the Lamm was and spoke highly of it I might have gone for them. Probably should not make such a purchase based on what others say but I’ve can’t hear them and wanted advise. 
I actually felt no better about Lamm then before the post. If you read the entire post and I get it most people don’t still it’s pretty clear about what I was trying to accomplish and many people were quite helpful. 

I know exactly what I want. It is just very hard to find a second hand version and not brand new. 
I will own one in the next week or so. Either I will get lucky and the one in US I’m waiting on happens or I am buying out of Europe. 
I would have already pulled the trigger on Europe unit if not for a US dealer I’ve been talking to has one coming in on trade against a pair Ypsilon mono blocks but either way one will be in my home by end of this week or maybe early the next week. 
This thread actually helped me choose and decide which way to go. I’m appreciative to the other members for that. 

Yeah, Lansche have plasma tweeters. I have no idea how it works. They wear out, in a manner of speaking, and have to be replaced every..7000 or so hours, if I remember right. Elegant sound with Ypsilon.
Greeks were playing music thousands of years ago, like Persians and a few others, they must know how it should sound.

UPDATE:

I want to thank everyone for your responses. It helped me decide. I ended up buying a Ypsilon Phaethon Integrated Amplifier. It’s 18 months old and it is just fantastic. It has that clarity and precision with real tight dynamics and grip that only solid state can offer but with a nice dose of tube life with blood and meat to the music all while being super transparent and airy. The exact sound I was looking for.

I’m glad I started this thread because I was going to pull the trigger on the Lamms and I may have been happy with the Lamms as well but I am ecstatic with this Phaethon. All on one to boot. Nice savings with one less box required as well as an extra PC, IC’s.
Thanks again :)

@fsmithjack did you buy in US or overseas? Curious if bought overseas what Duties you pd? Either way enjoy your new toy.

Yeah, sometimes even when auditioning in your own system it might be difficult to choose because both can sound equally well but different. Ypsilon and Lamm might be this case, and it could be for me, theoretically thinking.
Cables for Ypsilon/JM Labs ?..
What are you going to try ?

Rsf507 - I lucked out and sourced a domestic one. I’m psyched. 
Ok Cables... I think I’m decent for now but I’ll end up probably messing around with those down the road a bit.

I have Nordost Frey 2 SC’s 4m, Nordost Frey 2 XLR IC 1m, I power my Ypsilon Phaethon with an Audience AU23se HP AC Cable and I power my Bricasti M1SE with an Echole Obsession AC Cable. I use Ghent DC cables (oyaide/canare) out from my Linear Power Supplies which are 2 rails from my Uptone Audio JS-2 and 4 rails from my Wyred 4 Sound PS-1 and I use Audioquest Vodka, Cinnamon and Cardas Clear Ethernet cables. I use an Opogee Wyde Eye BNC Clock cable from Uptone Audio EtherRegen and my After Dark OCXO - Queen Square Wave - External Master Clock. For my Linear Power Supplies I use a good build quality cable but those don’t call for anything extravagant so I use ZU Audio Event MKI for my LPS and ancillaries. This covers my cableage. 

This looks good.

Hi guys, do you think pairing Lamm M1.2s with a VAC Master linestage would sound great on my Thiel CS 3.7s or are there any better amps today for my pretty difficult speakers ?

I plan on bying used therfore Vitus SM-103 monos could also be considered.

From Stereophile:

The Thiel CS3.7's voltage sensitivity is specified as 90dB/2.83V/m. My B-weighted estimate on its tweeter axis, assessed with DRA Labs' MLSSA system, was slightly above that figure, at 90.7dB(B)/2.83V/m. This may well have been affected by the Thiel's frequency response (see below). The sensitivity is usefully higher than average, which is a good thing considering that the CS3.7's impedance remains between 2 and 3 ohms over much of the audioband (fig.1), and that there is a demanding combination of 3.8 ohms and –40° capacitive phase angle at 60Hz. Thiel specifies the impedance being nominally 4 ohms, with a minimum of 2.8 ohms. I actually found the minimum impedance to be 2.4 ohms at 125Hz. The difference between 2.8 and 2.4 ohms is academic, either mandating use of an amplifier that has no problem delivering high currents.

Depending on which impedance setting you use on the M1.2 (I found the low impedance setting to sound the best) your maximum output current at 4 ohms will only be between about 7-10 amps. 

Comparatively, my Aerial speakers have a similarly difficult impedance between 3-4 ohms (however, with a lower sensitivity of 86 dB at 2.83 Vrms and 1.0 meter on axis), and while the M1.2 reference amplifiers sounded good on those speakers, they ran out of steam too early.   One thing I liked about the M1.2s is that I could essentially hear no strain right up to the point when they simply fell off the cliff and would not play louder, or more dynamic.  I could have lived with them and been perfectly happy 90 percent of the time but instead I found that moving to a pair of very powerful (650wpc @ 8 ohms) monoblocks with bipolar output transistors provided much better control and overall sound with my speakers.  

Regarding the sound, I am not convinced the hybrid design provides any more of a "tube-like sound" than would having a tubed preamp and SS power amp.  I owned both the M1.2 Reference amps you are looking at and the older M1.1s and, while they displayed a nice organic, musical sound in my systems, there were other (solid-state) amplifiers I liked better.  If you want a tubed sound, I suggest getting a tubed amplifier but you would need a pretty big one.  Other opinions may vary.

That's right @mitch2 i want more tube goodness in my system.

I don't know if a tube pre paired with a SS amps would be to my liking.

I have to admit that i'm pretty tired and bored of the non musicality of most SS.

In a week i'm demoing one last SS piece the Apurna Plelude and after that it will be a Jadis DA88S integrated.

Looking forward to the Jadis demo, i have a feeling it will sound great on 3.7s.

If Jadis sounds awsome i will start looking for Jadis monos.