LAMM M1.2 - Feedback - Advice - Please - anyone heard these?

I’ve owned a few way back in the day 

I have never owned a Dart though. You think Dart is better then LAMM? My Focal’s are bright. Too bright for Soulution and might be too bright for a Dart. These Focal’s need tubes to chill that screaming beryllium tweeter. The extension, air and transparency is great but you need to mind it or it will nip at yeah ears a bit. Need to settle it down with tubies.... 

Karma police I was thinking with a Dart I would still need a tube preamp though also? A friend has pair of XA60.8 but same thing tube preamp needed. I mean if I buy these LAMMS and these too may need a tube preamp but my hope is I only need a little tube love. I mean even if I need to pick up a NOS pair of pinched waste Amperex 6922 I will if that gets me enough tubeness? It’s my hope. 
Other part of me thinks just say heck with it and get the amp I know I love and just cross my fingers and go for the amp in Europe. It’s the exact sound I want. Risk is not in its sound. I know I love the sound. Risk is shipping. I’ll pay with PayPal so some protection there but still if it get hammered on way over I lose either way. If the LAMMs work they can be here in couple days so safe but then if I don’t love it’s another pair of amps I need flip. Sick of flipping. Want an amp I love. My gut says the Lamm maybe it.? Tough call... 

Thanks so much - this is awesome info. 
I’ve owned a bunch of pure SS amps and they don’t do it for me. The Bricasti makes great amps but I’m looking at Hybrids because I know the sound I want and I just know tubes need to be part of the chain. 

I’ve already tried a bunch of tube preamps with SS amps. I’m sure at some point I could get a SS amp / tube preamp combo to work but I’m looking to end this and get it right if I can.

 Ypsilon worked great. I demoed one and loved it but can’t find any for sale in US PreOwned. I can’t afford these Lamms or Ypsilon new. I just don’t have the cash so need to buy used. There is a modwright hybrid integrated but don’t think it’s going to match up to Ypsilon / Lamm. I found a couple Ypsilon amps in Europe. The intergrated and mono blocks and I can afford both but it’s impossible to find out how much duty tax I will have to pay to import them and need to worry all about them making the trip here safely. 
These Lamms are in US and I can afford them so I am just trying to get some additional info from owners or people that have heard them or info from people like me that need some tubes in their sound but don’t want a tube amp. 
Mixing brands with SS and tube Pre is great if you can get the mix right but it’s hard. I just sold another SS amp and tube preamp and was just going to buy a Ypsilon in Europe and end this search but then I came across these Lamms and thought oh man these may just be what I have been looking for? Maybe :) 

Yes on the cables. I actually sold my Stage III cables and bummed about it. Real bummed but my wife wanted this wall unit bookshelf / TV unit so had to move my Solid Tech ROS4 rack into corner of room so needed 4 meters or speaker cable. I picked a pair of Nordost Frey 2 SC’s which are fine but miss my Stage III’s but it made my wife happy so it’s fine. I actually had full loom of Frey 2 but didn’t really like the IC’s and PC’s. The PC’s are too bass heavy - I much prefer the Audience AU24SE HP I have better and Echole Obsession IC’s better then Frey 2. I bought and already some the Frey 2 IC / PC. I don’t mind different cables for different jobs. I just want the best sound I can get. I owned Kubala-Sonsa Emotion before the Stage III and Cardas Clear before that. I actually like they Frey 2 SC’s a lot just not the other cables. It’s funny they are not like other Nordost cables. They are not bright and or/fast and thin like all other Nordost I owned. They are nice and full. Better then Kubala and sort of like the Clears - a little better I think. I use Echole PC for my Bricasti. It’s funny only cable I’ve ever had that is sort of bright and relaxed. It’s rare they do both but they do. I like it. 

I actually just tried a VAC Sigma 160i SE Integrated with XLR and Phono options and just didn’t like it. Now don’t get me wrong it sounded beautiful and build quality was great - but I like a tighter / faster / more precise sound yet with some tube warmth. The Ypsilon Integrated sound actually. It’s mostly SS with a couple tubes in input. I just can’t find any in US under $20k. Actually found one for $19,600. I don’t have $19,600. I was targeting around $10k - maybe $12k. So been trying $5k SS amps and $5k preamps and just missing on these. I found a Ypsilon in Europe for $12k shipped but then I who knows what duty is. It’s like 20% more and then who knows how it gets knocked around coming across the pond. These LAMM amps are here and in my price range but yes my worry is not enough tube sound or maybe not transparent enough. Some say these will be way better then a Ypsilon Phaethon Integrated and I just am not sure. Trust me if I could afford a new one I would just buy the Ypsilon and be done with it but don’t have $20k cash to drop. 
The other thing I like about these LAMM is they were built in 2018. These amps models have been around for a long time but this pair is only a few years old so I like that. Not too far from my home so shipping is not too bad. I mean these are $30k amps new so decent value but yes worry a little about not having enough tube love but folks call these very natural sounding amps. Was considering a local pair of Pass XA60.8 but we know those will need a tube preamp so back to square one on those. 
What do you guys think? Think these have just enough tube love? I don’t need much but enough to be different from straight SS. More 3D, more real? 

I actually had the 40 Clayton in my home back when I owned pair of Rethm Saadhana V3 speakers. Great speakers by the way. 103db so could run them with anything. I like Clayton amps. They all used to hum real bad. All of them but with his upgrades and mods those all seem to have been worked out of them. Great sounding amps and kind of rare these days. There is a big monster pair sale - looks like a floor air conditioner but I’m sure it sounds great. I don’t want that. If I saw 50 or 300’s or something like that I would probably give them a try. Great sounding amp. They seem to have more body, more meat on the bone. Just very nice sounding class a amps and 6SN7 preamp with some black plate Tun Soles in the preamp would be sweet! 

Inna - yes I would need to convert to 120 which is a downside but doable.

mitch2 - yes music room is good people. I always check them. I’m on their emailing list and get inventory updates weekly. I email Nick once in a while on stuff I see they have. Like them for sure. 

Truth - I agree but it’s employed In the important 2nd stage which is the driver stage and the 6922 is a dual triode wired in parallel using both half’s acting as 2 tubes for a single channel so all these mosfets are driven by dual triodes with it being a mono amp. Now the Ypsilon only uses one tube per channel as well and it provides enough tubeness so this is my hope that if it works with Ypsilon it can work here. Now it is looks like only one tube per amp but it’s really 4 triodes for 2 channels for all actual purposes. The main difference being the tubes in Ypsilon drive the first and second stage but here it is only the 2nd stage but the more important driver stage which directly powers the output stage.

I liked the MKiI - my likes just kind of evolved. I just like a more raw monitor type sound better. The Focal is brighter and not as sophisticated. Overall the Magico was a better speaker no doubt it’s just I like the brighter / quicker / more precise sound of Focal is all. I used Pass 160.8 and Soulution 530 with my S5 MKII and Stage III cables so I got the most out of the Magico’s I just learned more about what I like. I owned S5 1 before the II’s. I heard the Focal’s and just really ked them is all. I heard them with Ypsilon and loved them. Just different really but for the money those Focals are killer little speakers. 

Rsf507
I just created an account and tried to see how much it cost for duty and fee’s to import a $12000 amp from Poland to the US and it said the duties and fees = $0.00

It can’t be right. So frustrating. I just want to know the extra cost?! Why is so hard to figure out. Had anyone ever shipping from Europe to US? 

That’s great info. Thanks 
I do think Focal needs a warm amp but dart is an interesting idea. It’s a brand Ive never owned same as Lamm. I really wish I could find a used Ypsilon in US but I just don’t think there are that many out there. I don’t even think that many have been made. It’s a tough call. One minute I’m going with the Lamm and next I’m thinking heck with it. The Ypsilon is made in Greece and had to get shipped here at some point anyway in same wooden box so why not just get from Europe. 

Did not know LAMM was traditional SS sounding amp. From what others have said it’s a nice warm and transparent amp. I always though no feedback was better. Ypsilon is a hybrid - class a with no global feedback. I though this combo would be ideal but if Lamm is a bright amp I won’t want it. It tough - I need a hybrid I think. Again - if I guessed I would prefer 83% SS and 17% tubenes. Just enough but not too little either? Dam it’s tough. Digging this Ypsilon out of Europe is not going real easy either. 
Anyone have an idea what duty tax is importing a second hand item in from the EU to US? Cant get a straight answer? 

Tvad - That is what I thought it was hoping anyways? 

Fatdaddy2 - we all have music on when writing on here. They go together like Mac and Cheese. I’m legit trying to get feedback about a used amp I may buy with never hearing so just trying to accumulate some extra info. My system is no where near megabuck either? It’s not cheap but not even close to megabuck. I do like think it is a bang for buck rig SQ wise can compete with my more expensive systems but it’s still a lower class high end system at best. 

If it only 5% I will jump on it. I was afraid it might be like 24 - 28%! If it is 5% yes I will claim full price and end all this. Anyway I can confirm? Why is it so hard to figure out? Just want to know duty on $12k amp from EU? 

Yeah that one is sold to a guy in France. 
Yes Florida is certainly much closer :) 

Thx Charles and mitch2 great info. I could almost hear the actual sound you described by reading. So well said! Thank you 

Guys / Gals - does this sound right to you?

FedEx says the fees and tax to get into US from Europe is this below:

$0 to $200 = $0

$200.1 to $1,250 = $21.75

$1,250 to $2,000= $35.00

$2,000.1 plus is $1.70 each additional $1000

So it looks like $35.00 plus $17.00 for $52.00?

Does this make sense for a $12,000 unit? Is it because it is second hand and we have a good trade deal with EU? Does anyone know. 

It would be terrible if I bought this and all was good and they got to my house and said I know now owe then any $5k or something like that and I don't have the money? Yikes...

Someone on here said it will probably 4% or 6% and in that case it would be workable? 

Is there a chance it could be something like 24%? Even that would be bad but could probably pull it off but if it is something crazy more then I am in trouble?

I want to claim full amount for both insurance and just want to do the right thing. Do any of you guys know? It is so hard to get this info?

Thank guys / gals.

 

sksos
Thank you very much. This is excellent info. I feel better.

I am leaning on pulling the trigger on this Europe purchase.

So I will make sure he lists on it as a preowned unit.

Should I claim the amount of item, shipping, insurance and PayPal fees do you think? That is what I was thinking of doing? He ended up giving me a price including all 3 of these. If it is 4.9% that is a number that works for me. It is an extra $600 but I can afford it would allow me to get the amp I want just worried it could be much higher? Do you think I should be ok and pretty safe at 4.9%? Thanks so much again ... 

Ok thanks it was made in Europe in Greece not sure if that helps or hurts. 

I just emailed him telling him I want to go forward with this purchase from Europe. I’m nervous and excited. I really appreciate everyone’s help and feedback. Many people don’t appreciate the feedback and assistance they can get from this forum. I do appreciate it. 
Thank you 

Yes I was thinking strong about Lamm for sure. Surprisingly a few folks did not think they were all that great. My fear was not that they would not be great but different then what I want. 
I just want that middle of the road sound. Very transparent and airy but with tube goodness, warmth, 3D but with grip, drive control and precision. I feared the Lamm would offer much but not enough of the tubeness. 
The Ypsilon uses 3 stages. Input, driver and output. It uses the double triode tube wired in parallel the 6H30 tube for both the first and second stage via a discrete, active preamp. All of the voltage gain that feeds the SS output is provided via these tubes. 2 of three stages is pure triode, tubes but there is more. This pure class a, triode voltage gain then feeds 2 separate amps per channel. Each channel runs 2 pure class a, single ended amps and they run them bridged opposite of each other to create their version of a push pull set up. So it has 4 single ended amps for 2 push pull channels. It has 8 different discrete transformers. It’s volume attenuation is done via their special sauce which is their home spun transformers. It’s a pretty cool set up and what gives it such an airy, warm, transparent sound with grip and precision. I just love the sound. It has bite and it is bright and relaxed at the same time. It is not bright as in too much detail but it’s just everything is so dam transparent it feels bright but it does this while being relaxed. It’s best way I can describe anyways. I just have tried to find a similar sound via tube preamps and SS amps and just couldn’t get there. 

A Ypsilon for $9500 to $12000 in US would be amazing but it’s trying to find one that is the challenge. Former sales are all well and good as guides for future pricing but one needs to find one first. They are so much much more expensive new or as demos. 
I’ve committed to the Ypsilon. Still waiting for one last shot at acquiring one state side before needing to buy from Europe. I mean they all come from Europe because that is where they are made but I am holding out hope to source one from US mainly because just so hard to know what tariff or duty tax will be and shipping is scary too but atleast they come in nice wooden crates so that helps I guess. I will update you guys on where I get it and how it all comes out. You guys have been a great help to me. Sometimes others opinions when your not sure what to do can really help. Thanks 

Yes those ARC REF series mono’s are great amps but much higher price then the amps I was considering and pure tube amps, even the big boys don’t seem to get me where I’m trying to go. 
That real grippy, tight controlled bottom and upper bottom with speed and Uber precision with that dead balls on pointness that really good SS does in its sleep I think we take for granted until we listen to a pure tube amp that is. Even the great tube amps that come close are still are missing part of that. 
Everything is bigger and wide and rounder and fatter and a bit more diffuse even with the excellent all tube amps. 
I guess I’m a hybrid guy because I need both and just won’t give that part up but also must have at least some / enough of what only tubes can provide. I started with SS and then when went over to tubes. I could not believe how I ever lived without tubes then moved up to really really good SS and just could not believe how I could love tubes and then well... Ended up wanting more then even great SS and spent some time with Ypsilon Hybrid and realized that’s it. It’s a tube lovers solid state amp or a solid state lovers tube amp or better yet it’s nails everything I need about SS while providing enough tubes to satisfy that need and all while being the best sounding amp I’ve ever heard. That is why I’m scowling the planet for one.  
The Mac’s? I’ve not heard those Macs you named. Not those particular amps but the ones I have heard just didn’t really seem to be something I wanted. 

Gotcha thanks , well I am no pro poster so my bad. Was trying to write what I felt is all. Didn’t mean to get under anyone’s skin. It’s not really my thing well I guess it shows. 

I’ve never heard a Lansche speaker - those have those unique plasma tweeters right? I don’t even know what that is? Lol.


The others I know and have great respect for. I used the Ypsilon with my Magico S5 MKII and at that time I had a full loom of Stage III cables - on loan - not mine. Kraken PC, Gryphon IC and Magnus SC. It was awesome. Now at this time there was a window where I had other amps I was selling but still had and went back a and forth with. Pass Labs XA160.8 and Soulution 530 and the Phaethon. 

Now with the Magico’s overall I preferred the Phaethon but the 530 grabbed those drivers in way only Soulution can and I think overall was a better amp for those speakers. Those Magico’s were big and stupid heavy and gangly and sounded best pulled out way further into my room then my wife was real happy with. But mostly over time I started to find them a bit polite and just sort of got bored of them.


Then I heard the smaller, cheaper, much brighter, more raw and quicker Focal’s. The 3’s were more like the Magico’s. Great floor standers but the 2’s were more like little rocket ship monitors with bass. I always loved and overall prefer the monitor sound and or that of 2 ways. I think that quickness and precision to the image but really it’s the overall coherence / honesty of the image and its presentation I buy into more. That feel of unity in the form of point source.
Well that’s why I bought the 2’s vs the 3’s. The 2’s are these bright, powerful monitors on Steroids. Not as sophisticated and overall dynamic or does it grab all the inner details like a better and more expensive Magico, Wilson, Rockport or the like but dam these little bright buggers are quick as hell. They stop, start and turn around and upside down quicker then any of them. The problem is they are bright as hell. You need to tame them. You need a musical source and warmish amplification but if tamed well they are right in my wheel house.


I’ve learned what I like through so much trial and error. No longer looking for the best sound but the best sound for me. What I want. Take what I want most in a sound and give up what I must to get there. Others may not be willing to give for what I want. They may need what I’m willing to give.



I think what has colored this perspective more then most was years back when I went in a hole hog total other SQ direction and switched to high efficiency full range single driver speaker and SET tube amps.
These blue my image. There is magic there. Pure Magico there and I was smitten for some time for sure. That Magic is just hard to describe but it was there and I learned what is important to me. Their transparency and image precision and tube Magic was amazing.



I also learned over time that the SET / FRD approach just gave up overall more then I was willing to give but I leaned. I recommend everyone try it at one point. I had some pretty good gear too. Rethm Saadhana V3 speakers were no joke. Audionote SETs. Creamy stuff.
So now it’s like I need part of that sound into what I want.


So for me a cheaper, quicker floor stander with a brighter tweeter that is hot but with super transparency with huge extension that acts more like a monitor with bass is much more to my liking then a much expensive traditional floor stander.
I guess I’m lucky to have dug out what I like but now need to get it all together in my home and in my room with the right amp.

You obviously have no interest in this thread. You ask a question that shows you have not read hardly any of it? Thats fine too but really?  I mean if you read it you would know I was targeting a price range that is no where near a $32k dart. If you read it you would know if I had that money I would just buy a new Ypsilon and be done with it. 
I’ve only head Dart once and they were with Magico’s yawn ... so hard for me to tell. They sounded like Soulution just not as good was my opinion but I could be wrong. Many people like them as long as you don’t need to drive low impedances. Why is that? Why do the struggle with low impedance. None of the other big boys have a problem with those? Me I don’t know why? I bet they sound great with right speakers. What are you a dart dealer or something? 

I think the folks that mentioned CAT are right from a sound standpoint for sure. I think they bridge the SS and tube sound as good as anyone but they are just monsters and would make my wife freak but they sound amazing. Also out of my price range. 
Just last month I burned through 3 amps and 2 preamps but these were US buys on reasonably available items. I plenty, I’ve bought sold more then on this site so not sure where you get I don’t buy anything. 

Ebm 
ive owned the legendary CAT SL1 MK III preamp years back and loved it. Not that long ago I almost bought a much newer and improved version but they have no remote and I am way too lazy to get up and change the volume all the time even though I could have worked around it with my Bricasti volume control but still it was enough to pass. 

I have also heard their mono amps and think they sound fantastic but in a real world set up like mine where my audio room is not just a pure audio only room for just me? I have a family with younger children my audio room is the great room over my garage with cathedral ceilings and big old L shaped leather sectional where me and my wife and kids spend tons of time together and thankfully so. 
I want to share as much time as possible with them when I’m not working. They love music and my audio system and my system is hooked to my 75” TV as well. It makes for a fun family set up. It’s a pure 2 channel set up but still works and sounds great. No interest in HT what’s so ever.
Those CAT mono blocks are just ridiculously obnoxious for a family room.

They don’t fit in my solid tech racks and are just huge - have tons of thin glass waiting to get stumbled into and throw tons of heat. I can’t think of a more absurdly non family friendly audio item on the planet regardless of great they sound. I do admit though that sound wise they are awesome but those thing are flame throwing beasts. 

Joe casey - I explained why. They are same price and was looking for a specific sound and was thinking about buying Lamm M1.2 because it’s local in US and Ypsilon is in Europe and I was afraid it would get damaged in shipping form Europe but mainly because I don’t what the heck the tax and duty is coming in. Some say 4% and some says 28%. 
Honestly, if I a bunch is people told me how the great the Lamm was and spoke highly of it I might have gone for them. Probably should not make such a purchase based on what others say but I’ve can’t hear them and wanted advise. 
I actually felt no better about Lamm then before the post. If you read the entire post and I get it most people don’t still it’s pretty clear about what I was trying to accomplish and many people were quite helpful. 

I know exactly what I want. It is just very hard to find a second hand version and not brand new. 
I will own one in the next week or so. Either I will get lucky and the one in US I’m waiting on happens or I am buying out of Europe. 
I would have already pulled the trigger on Europe unit if not for a US dealer I’ve been talking to has one coming in on trade against a pair Ypsilon mono blocks but either way one will be in my home by end of this week or maybe early the next week. 
This thread actually helped me choose and decide which way to go. I’m appreciative to the other members for that. 

UPDATE:

I want to thank everyone for your responses. It helped me decide. I ended up buying a Ypsilon Phaethon Integrated Amplifier. It’s 18 months old and it is just fantastic. It has that clarity and precision with real tight dynamics and grip that only solid state can offer but with a nice dose of tube life with blood and meat to the music all while being super transparent and airy. The exact sound I was looking for.

I’m glad I started this thread because I was going to pull the trigger on the Lamms and I may have been happy with the Lamms as well but I am ecstatic with this Phaethon. All on one to boot. Nice savings with one less box required as well as an extra PC, IC’s.
Thanks again :)

Rsf507 - I lucked out and sourced a domestic one. I’m psyched. 
Ok Cables... I think I’m decent for now but I’ll end up probably messing around with those down the road a bit.

I have Nordost Frey 2 SC’s 4m, Nordost Frey 2 XLR IC 1m, I power my Ypsilon Phaethon with an Audience AU23se HP AC Cable and I power my Bricasti M1SE with an Echole Obsession AC Cable. I use Ghent DC cables (oyaide/canare) out from my Linear Power Supplies which are 2 rails from my Uptone Audio JS-2 and 4 rails from my Wyred 4 Sound PS-1 and I use Audioquest Vodka, Cinnamon and Cardas Clear Ethernet cables. I use an Opogee Wyde Eye BNC Clock cable from Uptone Audio EtherRegen and my After Dark OCXO - Queen Square Wave - External Master Clock. For my Linear Power Supplies I use a good build quality cable but those don’t call for anything extravagant so I use ZU Audio Event MKI for my LPS and ancillaries. This covers my cableage.