LAIV Harmony

@sns Thank you for your review!

@kereru Thank you, this very informative! I can appreciate all the work you've done in regard to integrating best input on Harmony, and you have very nice equipment which gives much authority to your conclusions.

I only question the implementation of USB in the Harmony, both my Musetecs have more sophisticated usb, not saying the Harmony's bad. I've also bought into the theorizing that transport clocking much more important for R2R dacs vs other topologies, this https://dcs.community/t/dcs-ring-dac-a-technical-explanation/2724 Far too involved reading here for most, just talks about clocking and timing in ladder dacs. So theoretically, Harmony should sound best with highest quality external clock.

So, my next question is, are we playing on a level playing field here? Are the I2S and usb we are implementing to feed the Harmony of equal quality. I'd theorize your usb more greatly optimized vs the I2S you've implemented, same for the youtube video, usb in both those streamers superior to i2s. I could also say just the opposite for those reviews in which they found the Harmony to be superior with i2s vs usb. In any case I haven't explored optimizing i2s as I have usb, initial exploration has me reaching for Denafrips Gaia, and to keep things as equal as possible, AQ Diamond HDMI.

And I agree, the Harmony provides great sound quality with my optimized usb implementation, I too suspect Weng-Fai may be incorrect in coming to this conclusion, I've always found changes in usb chain affect sound quality, even in those dacs where usb not optimally implemented.

HQPlayer is whole other can of worms with me, I use Euphony OS on a custom build server, HQPlayer, Roon and this OS don't play well together.

I've also played f with various footers, stands over the years, I could go on and on. Final solution for me has been dacs and any equipment not too weighty are hung from custom built racks with extremely high test monofilament fish line. This how Harmony, Musetecs and signal chassis of my Coincident Statement pre situated.  I like how this method simply lets the vibrations flow into fish line rather than damp them with various footers. I discovered this method many years ago with cdplayers. you could actually see the players move about in relation to cd's spinning, rather than damp that movement theorized sympathetic movement would result in best sound quality. This has proven to be true for me, all footers, stands, and the materials with which their built with impact the sound quality in many ways. Hanging components with fish line comes closest to no footer which means no impact on sound quality. Wish I could find some manner of magically levitating all my gear! For gear I can't hang for whatever reason I like Stillpoints on various platforms, platforms made from various thicknesses of steel, aluminum, various woods, I keep a stock of these to experiment with. And then beyond the platform, what the platform sits on, I could go on and on! Anyway sound like you much like me, we like to experiment, well worth it!

@sns Cheers and interesting re your fish line suspension, pretty novel, cool to hear it works well for you. What is your 'optimised USB implementation' BTW, sorry if I missed it?

On the subject of USB implementation in the LAiV this just dropped review is rather positive, indeed the whole review is very positive. The class of his review system is top notch. 

https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/digital-reviews/spdif-dac-reviews/laiv-harmony-dac/

Conclusion

The beautifully sculpted Harmony DAC has a hugely revealing nature, but it is timbrally realistic, natural, and much like a chameleon. Combine it with a super-accurate and neutral source, and the DAC’s analytical quality will relay this in all its precision. Conversely, when combined with an organic and liquid-sounding source, the DAC will also relay the music in all its lushness and sweetness without overlaying any character of its own.

This is what I think a high-performance DAC should be like: not a component to EQ your system with but an open window onto your source. Such excellent performance usually comes with a much heftier price tag, and it is a miracle that the Harmony DAC achieves this at such a reasonable price point.

And re USB in particular

The Oladra/Harmony DAC combo takes a huge leap in solidity and control when switching from coaxial to USB. The Vermouth Reference USB cable is still a favorite for its even-handedness and ability to work well with virtually any source and DAC, but it is not the most robust or expressive cable I have. Nevertheless, with this cable, the DAC provides excellent clarity and transparency, combined with good articulation and toe-tapping PRaT, topped off with beguiling fluidity, refinement, and air. This result speaks clearly to the quality of the USB interfaces on both ends.

@kereru Sonore OpticalModule>OpticalRendu>Audioquest Diamond usb. AfterDark optical cable, OM to Teradak LPS, OR to Uptone JS-2, Mundorf silver/gold DC cables.

I'm ok with usb for now, at some point I'll get around to I2S, not in any hurry.

@sns your USB implementation looks pretty sweet, some nice gear there, I wouldn't be in any hurry either. By contrast I need to up my cable and PS game a little and agree the U18 whilst solid is far from the last word in I2S, the Audio-Gd DDCs with regenerated power on the order hand, they're pretty special. 

@kereru Forgot about Audio-gd, the DI-24SE very interesting, and price point very nice.

I picked up a Denafrips Hermes DDC about two weeks ago and it's working quite well with the Laiv Harmony.  The Hermes now receives a coax input from a TEAC 701T CD transport and a usb input from a Bluesound Node 130.  The Harmony receives an I2S input from the Hermes.  Previously the Harmony received coax from the transport and usb from the node.  The improvement in CD sound is primarily spatial, with a slightly deeper and wider soundstage, and also better bass extension and definition.  Without resorting to a lot of "reviewer speak", I think CDs with the Hermes in place just sound more enjoyable.  The really big bump up in audio performance comes with streaming from the Bluesound Node: everything sounds better from this very modest streamer with the Hermes in the signal path.  Bass is deep, full, and tight; soundstage is precise with lots of air around the musical sources; and the overall presentation is very natural and smooth.  I'm very happy with the Hermes and the Harmony is too.

@smweber2 i had a similar experience when I added a Hermes between my streaming source (MacBook pro) and my Pontus II.  It made a noticeable difference in all the same areas you mentioned as well as transient response.  

Ongoing experiments with Laiv vs Musetec 006. I've been listening to Musetec in main system for several weeks, burn in now up to 300 hours, probably a good 30 hours of that serious, undivided listening sessions. In the meantime I had Harmony burning in on second rig and purchased the already planned for Denafrips Gaia, so further burn in with Gaia via I2S slaved to Gaia clock, just over 100 hours on this setup, so around 250 hours total on Harmony.

Harmony via optimized usb, won't go into great detail here, but usb optimized over many years, many devices, final solution has been optical conversion via Sonore devices. So, upon initial listening sessions thought Harmony via usb pretty nice, prior review reflects that. Over several weeks of listening and burn in Musetec furthered it's advantage over Laiv, both dacs via usb, this based on my memory of how Harmony sounded in main rig. So finally got back to Harmony in main rig, first via usb. Via usb Harmony sounded rather flat in comparison to the Musetec which had improved quite a bit over the weeks of burn in and listening. Sound stage and imaging decent, devoid of comparison to 006 most would probably find it to be quite nice, but it simply didn't have the image density or the ability to escape front baffle of loudspeakers, just rather flat or meh. Tonality or tonal balance also off, lack of air on top, I'd say it was rather dark sounding. Transparency also took a hit, veiled and opaque compared to 006. Both macro and micro dynamics also not up to par, simply somewhat flat and lifeless. While my initial listening to Harmony via usb had been much more positive, the evolving sound of 006 had now made the Harmony a meh listen. Rather like midfi, not very interesting or involving, clear cut loser to 006. I should add this all via NOS mode, since my initial listening in OS mode found it inferior to NOS mode by quite a large margin.

So, now Harmony with Gaia via I2S, clock slaved to Gaia. I don't usually go for hyperbole, but just WOW! Immediately could hear a far more expansive sound stage and the image density just floored me. Gone was the dark presentation, now airy and open at top, bass was also far more articulate and impactful. And talk about black backgrounds, I thought 006 excelled  here, well Harmony with Gaia presents an even more ethereal experience, relief from a background plane which allows lowest level details to stand out, I more clearly heard hard to make out words in vocals, and background instruments, this above and beyond what I thought was excellence with 006. Complex passages and/or recordings with many performers now much more fully realized and organized/differentiated. And transparency certainly a huge notch up, no more veils or opaqueness, performers in room quality heightened over the already impressive 006.

All in all I was not quite expecting this, I was expecting something along the lines of subtle differences between this and 006. As it stands today, if I were to only have one dac it would be Laiv/Gaia vs 006, this combo stands head and shoulders above 006. A more analog like presentation presumably due to ladder dac's inherent superiority via chip dacs. And then you add to this all the above mentioned advantages over 006, really not much of a contest here. Now, I'm not entirely convinced yet, 006 more development via more burn in, 006 will be partnered with Gaia via I2S. Not sure what to expect, but usb in 006 is more technically developed in 006 vs Harmony, Harmony usb pretty ordinary. In this case 006 may not benefit as much from I2S as the Harmony. Also, I've long heard I2S is preferred choice for ladder dacs in general, providing precise timing for massive banks of resistors is necessary for best performance. In any case I'm absolutely convinced  Harmony's potential will not be heard via usb and/or nothing less than the  best external clock via I2S. I'll offer the external clock needs to OXCO, not TXCO or femtoclock, and the internal clock in Harmony is femto. While clocks within dacs should have a theoretical advantage being closer to I2S path, a far superior external clock will better that.

I should add, this review is as much about the Gaia as the Harmony, the Gaia is a special piece. And to think present setup far from optimized, presently using relatively cheap,  $70 copper I2S cable (not hdmi cable, I2S cables only have 9 pins wired, all other pins video related), I have Tubulus Concentus pure silver I2S on order. Also using relatively cheap Pangea  14SE power cable, already in midst of upgrade here. Finally, using stock feet on custom build baltic birch platform, will likely use Stillpoints on a different platform eventually, Point here is I suspect further improvements with Harmony/Gaia can be achieved.

For a more contextual or larger view, $2700 for Harmony, $1800 for Gaia makes for a $4500 total expenditure, add to this a quality power and I2S cable. The Tubulus is $700, my diy power cables are a relative bargain, but I'll assume at least $1k to match, now we're at aprox. $6200. And I could add the cost of Stillpoints. My question than becomes at what point do I still call the Harmony a bargain, could I do better with something like the T&A 200 or used Mola Mola Tamlbaqui?  Is I2S necessary with every dac in order to extract max performance?

I am using the eversolo DMP A8 with I2S DH labs silver cable in the Laiv dac. 

It brings me to 5,2k$ for streamer, cable and DAC combo.  Futhermore, the streamer has DSP to fine tune the sound as i want.  A lot cheaper than than your 6.2k$ and i am really happy with that.  I must admit I have a great pre amp c2800 that help a lot...

@dandion Certainly having a streamer with I2S output negates the need for DDC. I could output I2S from my custom streamer via Pink Faun I2S board, this would be less costly solution but went with Denafrip's superior technology here. No doubt a high quality pre required.

Getting away from financials, the Harmony's capabilities extremely high!

@sns Belated thanks for taking the time to share your detailed impressions of how the Harmony performs with the Gaia over I2S. Sounds pretty great. Look forward to hearing how you get on with the Tubulus I2S (Concentus I’m guessing?).

I also look forward to trying some even higher quality I2S and USB gear in the near future. I have a Ustars C19 (ext 10Mhz version) en route, a different price category to the Gaia that’s for sure but the French hifi forum loves this thing, will be interesting. Plan is to use it as an HQPlayer NAA. And a pair of optical USB isolators with SFP cages.

Cheers

@kereru Your welcome. I changed my order at last minute from the Concentus to Ximius, Ximius is their new reference I2S cable.

I expect you'll find optical conversion to be worthwhile, I started with the generic converters with the wall warts, over time went with Sonore, upraded the Sonore with quality LPS, DC cables, optical cables and Finisar 1475 transceivers. Even the generic devices with wall warts provided an upgrade at the time, knew potential for better existed.

@sns interesting re the new Ximius, first I’d heard of this.

Re optical fibre I should clarify these are a matched pair of optically isolated USB converters: USB in > SFP socket > SFPs or AOC or DAC cables > SFP socket > USB out. Will use to feed my LHY UIP. Agree re improvements of optical in the normal Ethernet use case, I have an Afterdark pair with Finisar and Cisco AOCs etc.

@kereru Not sure what you mean by optical usb isolators. Optical is an ethernet/network conversion. No provision or need to have usb isolator on first optical converter in line, the receiving optical converter has the usb isolation and output. 

EX: ethernet cable> Sonore OpticaModule>Sonore OpticalRendu via AfterDark optical cable>dac or ddc. Both Sonore powered via LPS and use Finisar 1475 transceivers in SFP sockets/modules.

I agree with @sns.

I actually have a network switch with SFP, so I run:

Network Switch/SFP/Finisar Transceiver > Optical Fiber > Sonore Optical Module Deluxe > Ethernet > Sonore Micro Rendu > USB > LAiV Harmony DAC

Optical isolation is definitely the way to go for network noise elimination.

@catastrofe You have one excess conversion. Why are you doing OpticalModule to MicroRendu, you should be using OpticalRendu, keep it all optical post switch.  then OpticalRendu via usb to ddc. I'll reiterate the vast superiority of I2S vs usb with Harmony, this not incremental change assuming one's system highly resolving/transparent. I don't believe it a necessity to have Gaia ddc in order to obtain superior performance with I2Sz, I'd bet on Denafrips Hermes, Singxer SU6 or something similar to be nice upgrade. Don't need high end I2S cable either, $70 cable I'm presently using is fine in most cases, can always upgrade this at later date.

I've determined the Musetec 006 will be my reference dac for the near, perhaps longer term. Both presentations  great, just ooze with ease and refinement, holistic, analog like sound quality. This especially true with both dacs slaved or synced to Gaia clock. Musetec ekes out an advantage with greater resolution, virtually infinite noise floor. Not that the Harmony at all bad here, I could easily live with it's level of resolution, very involving and wonderful dac!

Footnote to above, both dacs absolutely require I2S connection to reach their full potential, also necessary  that I2S output or output device optimal, cheaping out on I2S won't get you much past usb.

@sns

An Optical Rendu is a potential future purchase, the Micro is filling temporary duties.

I have had a Signature Rendu SE with optical input in my system and it was great, but I was having network issues and wasn’t getting the full benefit. Now those issues have been resolved so I can look to the future. At that point I’ll need to decide whether a Rendu or some other streamer makes the most sense.

@sns Optically isolated USB regenerators are rare beasts so not surprised you’ve not heard of em. Here’s an expensive example from Afterdark, I got a much cheaper AliX equivalent that comes highly rated from that French hifi tweakers forum. Most USB isolators/regenerators deliver a level of isolation, some superb, some not quite so good, but technically at least, as for networks, they can’t quite match the 100% galvanic isolation of optical. As to the sonic effect it has on my Harmony-based system, I’ll keep you posted.

Re I2S vs USB, your vote in favour of the Gaia’s I2S vs your system’s already sorted USB comes through loud and clear. Sounds most excellent.

I’ll keep this forum posted as to where I get to with my own comparisons in my system, which have already included an externally clocked U18 via I2S (incl with the LHY USB regen feeding it) and when I can find its AWOL DC cable, my SU6 as well. Though from experience the former beats the latter (noting the SU6 beats the U18 using its internal oscillator), whilst the externally clocked UIP over USB was comfortably better than the former with both the LaiV and R26. Also hope to try an Audio-Gd DDC with the Harmony, it was very good indeed with my R26, if not quite in the class of a loaned PhoenixUSB I compared it to.

@kereru The OpticalRendu does exactly the same thing as AfterDark alternative you linked to, my opticalrendu takes optical input from my opticalmodule which is initial device converting ethernet  to optical. OpticalRendu is also usb regen/isolator, it feeds dac or in my case Gaia via usb.

In any case, thanks for sending that link, looks like an interesting piece, may be superior to OpticalRendu. There is also new OpticalRendu deluxe just out, that may also be superior to the older version. I like what AfterDark does, purchased my Finisar transceivers for sfp modules in my Sonore equipment, also upgraded optical cable from AfterDark.

I've also found linear power supplies and DC cables  make a difference. Uptone JS2 a choke based power supply feeds OpticalRendu, lesser lps feeds OpticalModule. I make my own DC cables using Mundorf silver/gold wire and Oyaide DC barrels. Optimizing usb going into ddc is important for ultimate ddc i2s output.

We shouldn't hijack this thread too much with network oriented stuff, but the quality of usb feeding one's ddc shouldn't be underestimated or neglected. All of this contributes to ultimate Harmony performance, Harmony potential is really quite high, optimizing one's entire streaming chain will pay off in better sound quality.

I'm really hoping LAIV knocks it out of the park with their new Streamer coming Q1 2025.  Opportunity to realized benefits of i2s as well.

While I realize the following streamer is completely out of reach for vast majority of us, there is info in here that can serve as a general primer for the reasons/need and implementation of various optimizations for the entire streaming chain. https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/reality-quest-review-of-the-taiko-audio-olympus-music-server-part-1-of-2-r1305/

@audiostick 

I agree. I've been bugging Weng Fai at LAiV for some details, and shared my opinion on must-have features. I'm pretty sure I2S will be one of the outputs.

@sns Gee that was a superb review/article over at AS on that Taiko, thanks for sharing. I was already a convert to much of his three principles, but boy it was filled with interesting observations on an array of factors relevant to good sound in a highly sorted system. I should visit AS more, I mean when you have folk like John Swenson contributing in the comments.

A few points that particularly resonated with me, areas to potentially explore on a more modest budget:

- DAC (Direct attached cables) network cables are lower power draw than either Ethernet or optical SFPs, and he seemed to note a correlation between low power draw and sound quality

- the level of processing required to playback more demanding high bit rate music was inversely proportional to the sound quality (at least over that new XDMI interface)

- high capacity, high current delivery Lithium iron phosphate batteries can sound good but are sensitive to any electronics /cabling in the chain (I’ve observed this first hand in my system with one I use to power a router and modem)

- even with super pure battery power, the system was still sensitive to AC quality, power conditioning and potentially grounding helps (again first hand: ground quality is so important, I can highly recommend a low impedance path to ground, or better yet, paths plural)

 Sorry all, getting a little OT once more - but hey, all just areas of interest in endeavoring to optimize my Harmony-based system 

Just as an aside, at one point was running  Auralic Vega dac and some other streaming devices off battery PS, lower noise floor, lost dynamics.

I have custom build streamer assembled by some of the leading members of that forum, I added JCAT Optimo ATX LPS. This was their top end diy design prior to the Taiko Extreme clones. Unfortunately, I2S output at the level of Gaia not possible, real estate issue. The XDMI interface in new Taiko looks to be a game changer.

With all the accolades I’m reading about the Harmony with i2s, I am trying to understand why companies like Aurender and Innuos do not offer i2s output.  Are they assuming that if you are spending $6-12k on a Streamer that you will also purchase a DDC?

@audiostick I thought the Innuos Next Gen would have i2s, but the Zen Next-Gen only has USB.

I’m using a DDC with my Zen Mk3.

Seems streamer manufacturers led the way on adoption of usb as 'de facto' interface. Seems logical to me dac manufacturers would prefer the I2S as the interface of choice being the native protocol for d to a conversion. So we have all these convoluted schemes for optimizing usb in dac, and then we have to convert that to I2S,  seems like a real lack of utility here.

Have the same issue with lack of optical conversion within streamers. My dream streamer would have optimized optical, I2S, this means top level clocks and power supplies, forget about all the other digital outs, don't need onboard storage hard drives. All this universality only adds unneeded cost and complexity.