@just_krissy I’m ashamed at some of the commentary I see posted but the good riddance comment may take the prize. Ive often wondered if removing the cloak of anonymity would help those inclined to be rude or cruel to be less so. It seems the pushy bullies try to impose their beliefs on the community and sometimes they succeed. Hang in there, we need more diverse opinions and certainly the bullies will hate that.
Lack of Female Representation
So who can explain the near lack of females in our hobby? There are far more women discussing football than audio, by a long shot. There are a lot more women into fixing up their cars as well. I just can’t think of a hobby, other than ours, where representation is so close to zero.
188 responses Add your response
anonymity on these sites definitely brings out the worst in people, unfortunately -- it is cowardly human nature is frail and often dark, and not aided by poor education, and exacerbated poor choices in sources of information and discussion it is the case with large swaths of our populace at this point... perhaps always been the case, now the internet gives an open avenue but then again i suspect many of these folks are rarely given the time of day in real life situations, or an ear to listen to what they want to say, so they lash out and act out here there many good aspects of signing in here, this is one of the bad |
Wow some of the answers in this post were shocking. I am a female audiophile and started my love at an early age. I was the one in a family with three brothers who had the record player and bought the records in the late 60's. I was one of several women in our local camera club. Worked at Tech Hifi with another woman audiophile. I heard many male clients use the wife excuse. Later when I met their wives the main reason they were not audiophiles were they didn't have control of the household money. They had no control over discretionary spending. There household budget went to raising kids. The man cave was off limits. My love for live performances was the main driver in trying to capture that sound at home. I didn't want the biggest speaker so I could out due my other audiophiles. I wanted the best sound. I was not interested in constantly chasing the next new cable, amp or tonearm. I carefully crafted the sound I wanted in my system. Once I was happy with my system I was not interested in hanging out with a group of people who tested cables for the fun of it. I like passively reading reviews and keeping up with the technology I just didn't want to spend my free time listening to a group of men talking cables, making sexist jokes and talking around me and not to me. Some things have changed over the years. Happy to see the SF audiophile group President is a woman. Not all the men treat us less than equal. But reading these comments that I hoped were trying to be funny with the my wife jokes I realized maybe times have not changed. |
@ghasley Just to let you know that I never thought for a moment that you were being disrespectful. Honestly, I do not think women in forums (this is the only forum I am in besides Roon) are that sensitive at all. It takes a much bigger push. And I should mention that most of the guys have been helpful beyond my expectations when I was buying equipment. |
I’ve been spending a disproportionate amount of my income on audio hi-fi equipment for about 25 years and I can only speak from my own observations. All of the women I’ve ever known, dated or friends, thought I was crazy to spend that much to listen to music, and all in their own homes were content with smallish Best-Buy type “systems,” if they even had those. No opinions, just my observations. |
Of course there are lots of women audiophiles! I run into them all the time at flea markets and music stores. I spoke with my nieces, both audiophiles, and they spend their time listening to music (and living life). They don’t particularly care to be mansplained to about things so they avoid forums populated by middle-aged white guys. |
Well if anonymity is such a concern, perhaps we should all use our actual names. Did you ever consider that some of the of the problems experienced by these female enthusiasts were issues with perception and not reality? To assume that these members speak for all women and that their shared experiences are universal is very dangerous. The kinder and gentler among use readily accept this as fact because it fits very neatly into the narrative and world view. If you really want issues of race and gender to disappear, then quit calling attention to it and expect no special accommodation when you start to participate in a staid hobby like audio. The best way to affect change is to get over the feelings of discomfort and show these old farts that you have something to offer. Yes I did suggest that some of us step out of our comfort zones for just a moment. Some things in life arent easy as much as current trends would like to suggest that they should be. jjss49 I love the way you equate social and political opinions with notions of worth. |
This has always puzzled me as well; it's not like women can't tell the difference in sound quality of various gear, and I'd think most of those would prefer something that sounds better than something else. So I don't know why this seems to approach 100% male audiophiles; I wish more women were into it. 'Half the 'Goners are women'? Maybe so, but I'd like to see how that statistic was arrived at. Half the people at audio shows and in hi-fi shops sure are not women; more like 5% from my observations. And explaining is explaining, I don't care if it's a man or a woman - never could understand this 'mansplaining' stuff... |
I think this thread is a good example of why most people (regardless of gender, ethnicity or age) think twice before posting. I bet there's a damn sight more knowledge, experience and wisdom among the lurkers than there is among the sum of contributors. It's just unfortunate that so many threads get dominated by the blowhards or descend into a war between two factions. A bit of humility would go a long way for all of us... and then maybe the membership might be a little more diverse and we might all learn a little bit more... not holding my breath. |
Please don't encourage them into the hobby. My time listening to music is first the thorough enjoyment of the music and the very close second is not having to be in the room with my wife. My wife could not tell the difference between am radio and my reference system. Same way she cant tell the difference between 4k, 1080p, or analog tube tv. Some have and some will tell me she can but she doesn't care. I will challenge you on that maybe, as soon as i find something she does care about other than bitching every second. |
I'm happy to report that disapproval of my stereo obsession is not only nearly universal among those I hang with, it's divided a near perfect fifty percent by gender. This website might actually be the only place I get support for my obsession. Bruddahs and sistahs, I embrace you. Even the snarky ones! |
The best way to help our gender challenged hobby is from the inside. Sorry but if I were to pick a female dominated hobby, I wouldnt expect them to change anything to accommodate me. In fact, if they did I would it very offensive. But I like discourse, a bit of chaos and a good fight. I am sure that women participate in locker room talk and might (GASP) say something that might insult me as a man. I would expect a few of the veterans in the group to talk down to me or look past me from time to time. I wouldnt automatically assume it was because I was a man. Why not concentrate on the welcoming majority instead of fixating on what you have been told you should expect from a bunch of men. Nonoise, so should be expect congressional hearings to only be populated by those who are most directly affected? You will get just a diverse response from a bunch of random women on womens rights as you would from a panel of men from different social and economic backgrounds. But I am sure that all women have the same view on abortion just as an example. How about 1 token man in this hearing?Gender and racial experience is not universal, nor is the way experiences are perceived. Sounds good if you dont give it much thought. |
@audition__audio jjss49 I love the way you equate social and political opinions with notions of worth. didn’t say that, didn’t mean that, so not sure what you mean... peace bro - you express your thoughts, i will express mine, ok? anyways, no matter, back to our regular programming... should we bi-wire or use jumpers? what happens when you stick a 6sl7 into a 6sn7 circuit? 🤣 |
You mentioned invisible people, lack of education, fake news and perhaps some other stuff that I cant recall. At its core you are implying that only the chauvinists suffer from the above and certainly not your women friend who is higher up in Birkenstock. If you tell me that you dont equate certain social and political views with the above then I apologize. Oh and I love it when you express your views. What a drag to have a world that sees all things as I do. My responses dont indicate a lack of respect just a difference of opinion. If I made an inappropriate jump then I am sorry. Dont use a 6SL7 in place of a 6SN7. Damage isnt likely but may be possible. I would probably bi-wire but for different reasons than most. |
audition_audio, All I'm asking for is representative balance. Men have just as important things to say about women's issues as women do about men's issues. To stack things so as to eliminate other POVs and the groups directly affected is a joke and will achieve nothing and ensure that nothing is accomplished that would benefit the wrongly affected. All the best, Nonoise |
My wife has a different ear than I do, I have a different sense of rhythm than she does, she has a different affinity for lyrics, I have a different understanding of context. There are things we value in each other's taste and knowledge. None of this is because I am a man or she is a woman, but because we are different people with different upbringings, experiences and personalities. I watched my engineer father berate my musician mother my whole life, and I don't raise my son to speak to or of anyone that way. I would love to say humans are well beyond the need to generalize and assign each other stereotypes based on gender or race, but when reading through this thread and a few others, I see there probably wont be much advancement until those mentalities who refuse to evolve simply expire. |
Please don't encourage them into the hobby. My time listening to music is first the thorough enjoyment of the music and the very close second is not having to be in the room with my wife. My wife could not tell the difference between am radio and my reference system. Same way she cant tell the difference between 4k, 1080p, or analog tube tv. Some have and some will tell me she can but she doesn't care. I will challenge you on that maybe, as soon as i find something she does care about other than bitching every second. Healthy |
I called this thread to my girlfriend's attention. Want to comment I asked? "No". So I will speak for her. Put words into her mouth. I am allowed to do this with Audio. She doesn't care. I have met "Audiophile" women. Walk the walk, talk the talk type of Audiophiles. Knew equipment, manufactures, specs... 12ax7, 6550 made sense to them. Very very few. My girlfriend loves music. She CAN nitpick sound better than I. Does not know that terminology. But notices, Why does ______ sounds so and so? Glory hallelujah she noticed amongst other things the string bass sounded better than the old speakers. Ultimately does not care. Most women don't care about the "hobby". She/they are more about what they look like. Organization. Keep the speakers out of her way. Little apartment, I can appreciate that one. She's not one to sit and concentrate on the presentation. She's doing other things while the music plays. Most of the time I do the same. It's playing right now while I'm typing this. While very few women do indulge in audio like we do. Most don't care. Men and Women. What come out of their smart phones is just fine. |
I have to say that my wife turned out to not be the typical woman. I don't mean the term "typical woman" in any derogatory way. She knows how to drive a tractor, use a chainsaw (which scares the crap out of me quite honestly), is a writer, and a lover of music. Just about every night we sit together in our listening room and listen to vinyl together. She appreciates the improvements that I make to our system and gives me very honest and specific critiques. I do save money to spend on our system. I have an allowance. I ordered a Technics 1200g a couple of months back and after explaining why I picked that specific table, she was cool with it. She understands my reasoning (or at least nods her head.... I think of her chainsaw abilities at times) and realizes that I am trying to build my retirement system. She gets that. She also enjoys the end result. I don't expect her to know brand details and spec sheets. That is my thing. Hers is the enjoyment of the end product. I would say that at this point, she is as close to being an audiophile as I could hope for. At events that I like to go to (hamfest events) she is right there beside me digging through boxes looking for oil filled capacitors and the like. I go to her events as well (outlander) so that I can support her in what she likes. I would say that I lucked out with whom I married. We both value the interests of each other and respect each others views. We share many of the same interests and value what is important to one another. As a side note, I would love to hear more from the female audiophile side of the room, not just the jaded old farts that we have running around here (yeah, I can be one myself at times). Your opinions are very welcome. |
@
audition__audio Agree with you 100%. If women want to enter the
world of High Fidelity Music, they are very
welcome to do so...it's not like Hifi Stores have guards outside that turn them a
way when they want to make a purchase, but the insinuation that sexism has something to do with this is just a sexist opinion in of itself. These white Knight "Allies" are cringe as far as I am concerned, and most women find them equally repulsive. Men are expected to capitulate at every turn to these overgrown children, we cannot have a community of any sort, without being labeled as boorish bigots. |
I’m noticing a big change in an associated field... Music Production. As an audio engineer/hobbyist, I notice many more women getting into audio & video production, and rock bands. Just look at YouTube and you’ll see amazing women drummers and guitarists making their own videos, and Killing it! 10 years ago it was still a novelty to see a woman in a rock band, and now a 50/50 split is not uncommon at all. I see a lot of change in the music world, but I don’t know if that will filter down into audiophile land. I see YouTube as a great equalizer. It allows young women to learn things that previously they’d have to "break into the boy’s club" to do. Joining a band as the only girl to learn how to play guitar is a big obstacle. But learning at home watching YouTube videos is safe & comfortable. This goes for many other fields of study too... machining, woodworking, photography. YouTube has issues, no doubt, but it is a treasure trove of "how-to" information. Even for audiophiles! |
Amazing how some of these responses boil down to nothing more than, "too bad, grow thicker skin, I'm not gonna change or make any effort to accommodate you, It's your perception which is wrong, etc." All of that is just validation of how immutably primitive some can be. It also brings out other, associated realms of like thinking (politics) and conflates the two. This is like going into a therapy session with the intent of telling off the therapist. You go, dudes. All the best, Nonoise |
I will make the same effort to accommodate a women as I would a man. How could a woman expect more? Anything else is patronizing and true chauvinism. Because there is no universal female experience, everything is individual perception and as such can only addressed individually. Same applies for all the other so-called "systemics". By telling someone what to expect you can influence the expectation. If by referring to me as a primitive you imply a desire to go back to the days of open discourse, lack of cancel-culture, teachers that dont socially indoctrinate, open college forums, willingness to embrace our actual history, rejection of societal androgenization, recognition/reward, etc then I am definitely a primitive and I wear this badge proudly. What do you suggest we do to increase female participation? |
@nonoise Now why did you have to bring up therapy? For some of those on Audiogon, they tried therapy in the attempt to reconcile the issues with their first four marriages, so, apparently therapy just doesn't work! ;-)My bad. |
@nonoise LOL…your post was terrific. @audition__audio Did you have a tough day? All that needs to happen for others to feel welcome is to welcome them. All that needs to happen for those that are trying to learn is to help them if you are in a position to do so. I’m sure you do those things here and during your normal day. I’m going to guess you wouldn’t be opposed to revising certain parts of history or women’s studies right? John Glenn relied, insisted as a matter of fact, on the mathematical skills of a woman of color for trajectory analysis. That didn’t make it in to the first version of history but mercifully it has found its way in to history 2.0. We all share a responsibility to assist others when a formerly exclusionary pursuit no longer excludes. |
ghasley, Read my post and spare me the emotion based diatribes. Never in any of my responses have I said anything about unequal treatment and never have I called for a return to more traditional roles for women. Never have I demeaned, insulted or implied any lack of worth. I just simply refuse to go along with the tired narrative of the gentle/caring ones. May I remind you that women's movements for years having only sought equal, not special, treatment. But I thank you for your civility and for actually responding to content instead if just making a terse and predictable comment like the one from our resident sage djones. What other than a refusal to treat with deference do you find in my posts that you find objectionable? |
@ghasley Keep your responsibility to yourself, stop forcing what you think the world should be onto others. Other people are not participants in your crazy religion, so try to keep the cultiness in check when you are in public. This constant preaching and preening is nauseating.... You are not owed anything by any of us... whenever I hear grown men preach about women’s history/ Gender Studies etc, I instantly think Rapist/Molester. I have seen many a men who advertise their virtues, scream at the top of their lungs, and then victimize the women they profess to defend. |
@yuviarora Setting aside that @ghasley obviously wouldn't be able to "force" his views on anyone even if that were his intent (it isn't), your reaction to his posts is wildly over-the-top. This ...whenever I hear grown men preach about women’s history/ Gender Studies etc, I instantly think Rapist/Molester.reveals far more about you than your intended target, and in a decidedly unflattering light. It is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that a member who is displaying sensitivity to a minority (women, in this instance) is somehow likely to be abusive them in real life. |
@audition__audio I was just sparring with you a wee bit regarding your comment “embrace our actual history”. If by referring to me as a primitive you imply a desire to go back to the days of open discourse, lack of cancel-culture, teachers that dont socially indoctrinate, open college forums, willingness to embrace our actual history, rejection of societal androgenization, recognition/reward, etc then I am definitely a primitive and I wear this badge proudly. @yuviaora Your post is just a bit over the top isn’t it? As the son of a Marine and the Godson of a Medal of Honor recipient Marine, right and wrong was hammered into me from my earliest recollection. When I say hammered, you have no idea. I had two sisters and if you pay attention, virtually every young woman has found herself in a pretty dangerous situation. There were occasions where I had to have “conversations” with young men who decided they were entitled to say or act however they wanted. They were not and they understood that clearly following those conversations. Your mention of rape is no joke, not even a little and is out of line. The very fact you typed that and chose to post it speaks volumes about your lack of or incapability of empathy for others or worse. You can fix it though if you try, which I hope you do. |
A woman scorned. Woman can be more vicious then men and in many ways are more difficult. Anybody who has had children will tell you that. Young men do stupid things like overcook a corner in Dad's car. Young women are an emotional rollercoaster. Being the chicken I am I let my wife deal with it....until my youngest started cutting her arms. Look at the crowds that attended Beatles concerts, young women screaming their heads off. Go to a Red Hot Chili Peppers concert and you have young males violently smashing into each other, pressed together like sardines. As I said in my previous post human males and females are vastly different. But, there are commonalities. Both like music, both love their children. My younger sister is also an audiophile (I made her first system, a Heath Kit all in one.) She is also the scariest driver I have ever seen. Society should not discriminate in any way, not by color, sex or creed. But, women are better at some things, men at others. African American males disproportionally populate professional football and basketball leagues caucasians ski teams and automobile racing. This is nothing but people taking advantage of their assets. The sexes do the same. Don't be stuck in time. Both racism and sexism are nowhere near what they use to be just 50 years ago. 100 years ago women were just getting the right to vote! No one can argue that we are not headed in the right direction. But, changes in humans are generational. Socrates said give me a boy until he is seven and he is mine. Just exchange "boy" with "child". You are not going to change older people. They may modify their behavior but their internal thinking will be the same. So, a certain amount of patience is required. And, political correctness is just a way to prevent solving problems. |
@audition__audio You are better than this but there must be something else thats troubling you than female representation in high end audio. Lets ask ourselves why so many get upset when a topic regarding inclusion or fairness is presented. |
