JL Audio CR-1 Crossover

@james633 I too have some added hiss/hum in my E112's when using them in my chain (between preamp and amp) as a high pass.

Hiss/hum is almost nonexistent after using a HumX on my left channel mono amp (JC1+) but now trying out my new tube amps (Virtus i2 mono), the hiss is 2-3 times as loud to the point I can audibly hear it from 10-12' away (versus ear by tweeter). This is volume/gain dependent with my tube amps. So turning them to max gain bypassing the attenuated volume controls (basically direct mode) the hiss gets louder. My solid state amps definitely handle the E112's better (less hiss). So now the hiss/hum is much better just running the subs on a y-splitter as they go from preamp --> RCA Y right and left channel --> right and left sub's and amps.

Whatever the E112 is doing as a HF filter is passing that hiss/hum to my amps and is worsened by the filtering.

I've ordered the CR-1 in hopes that this allows me to high pass my speakers while reducing the hiss/hum of the E112 sub's.

But my new Perlisten D12's also come next week. They have a pass through function to send the signal from amp, to sub, to sub (daisy chain), but I'm again curious if they'll produce any hiss/hum like the E112's do.

I even tried plugging everything into my Puritan 156 with special AC cord, and the hiss/hum still was present.

In all truth I was only running my amps and sub's through the Puritan, not my DAC, streamer and preamp. So maybe this isn't a fair assessment. IDK

I will keep you posted though of my progress.

james633,

Being able to set the crossover point from your mains to the subs is the best of all worlds.

ozzy

Ozzy,

 

good to hear… or not to hear lol. Not sure if I would use the damping or not of the CR-1 or not. The E112 subs have a stripped down version of what the CR-1 does. I am trying to get a handle on how much cleaner it is. The issue with passing through the E112 is I pick up a bit of the amp noise looping back in the amp. I am hoping that with the CR-1 where the subs don’t loop back in I would get less noise. It is very subtle but with 90db speakers they pick it up. As a whole the E112 crossover is transparent aside from some added hiss, well and ground loop issues but that is a story for another day.  

Question for the CR-1 owners. Do you notice any added hiss when using it? I have been using the internal highpass crossover in my JL E112 subs and while they seem very transparent I get some added hiss to my system (I am assuming a high gain output). I have been thinking about trying a CR-1 to see if it better. 

ozzy thank you for clarifying - now I'm with you. Will try both and see - order the same adapters you had mentioned and an additional xlr for the F112 - appreciate the quick reply - and yes, Randy is a gem over at JL....I've enjoyed all my conversations with him getting the CR-1 set-up and my 7 yr old F112 updated/renewed. great company. 

I see that I did confuse you. Sorry. I was referring to the managed inputs for adding a Home Theater connection along with 2 channel. So, let’s see if I can correct it / or confuse more?

The managed bass inputs come from my Home Theater equipment (Oppo 205). For that input, I am using the balanced inputs. If you use the RCA input and then use the balanced outputs, then, you could get hum.

So, if all you have is RCA from your Home Theater equipment to go into the managed input on the CR-1 then use an RCA- XLR adapter and plug it into the balanced input if you are using the balanced outputs.

Better to use all XLR or all RCA connections into the CR-1

ozzy

 

Under Scenario 3 - how could you use two sets of XLR when there is only ONE XLR input set for the "Main Stereo Inputs" on the CR-1.....? hence the confusion.

 

I was referring to the inputs into the CR-1. Using all XLR instead of mixing XLR/RCA inputs should eliminate the hum some were having.

To me, if you can run all XLR to the sub, I would use that instead of RCA. Perhaps when using the XLR outs it provides a db boost over the RCA connection.

I am using JL F-113 subs which can contour the bass to the room.

I hope this info helps.

ozzy

ozzy - here is my setup and is "Scenario 3" in the CR-1 manual 

 

CXN v2 streamer via XLR to CR-1

Marantz 1711 F/R and Sub via RCA to CR-1 

Mcintosh MA7900 integrated via RCA from the CR-1 

JL Audio F112 sub via RCA from CR-1

 

If what I have read from all the above is true - and I am getting very boomy overly boosted bass from the sub only using the XLR streamer, should I try running via XLR (in lieu of exisitng RCA) from the CR-1 output to the Sub? Is this what you refer to when you say the CR-1 doesnt like XLR and RCA ?

thank you!

 

Just add a XLR to RCA adapter to the RCA cables that are plugged into the CR-1.  That way only the XLR inputs on the CR-1 are being used.

ozzy

Hello Northman,

just coming back to this thread now and noticed your comment on the buzzing issue while using both balanced and unbalanced connections. Did the JL guys help you find a solution?  I’m still dealing with this buzz when I use the HT bypass switch.

 

thanks!

For those that want to populate a supplied board to build a crossover there is

https://diyaudiostore.com/products/diy-biamp-6-24-crossover

Interesting Topic.

 

Currently I use speaker terminal to sub high level input. (Morrow)

Switched over to using the second XLR output on the preamp to connect to the low pass filter on the sub instead. (MIT Termintor cable).

Volume for both connections is different, but I don’t hear low bass information that is missing via the high level inputs. 
 

possibly the CR1 makes the difference.

 

That is why I am using RCA/XLR adapters to only use the XLR inputs.

So, I am confused as to why he is getting the noise.

Lifting the ground switch may help. 

And yes, their customer support is excellent. Ask for Randy.

ozzy

"it appears that the CR-1 doesn't like both balanced and unbalanced connections happening at the same time.  If I disconnect the balanced cables from the CR-1 the buzzing stops."

This is correct. I had the same issue. Their customer support is fantastic and I had a helpful exchange with them. 

hubbman,

I’m sorry I stated it wrong. I am using the mono sub output from my Oppo to a y- adapter then to 2 Cardas RCA/XLR adapters. Plugging those adapters into the CR- 1 Balanced managed inputs.

ozzy

hubbman,

Now that is strange because I am doing the same thing. I am using Cardas XLR/RCA adapters converting the balanced XLR from my Oppo 205 to a RCA input at the CR-1, while using all the other as balanced.

You may be creating a ground loop, have you tried lifting the ground switch on the back?

So, try just using the XLR output and convert it to RCA at the CR-1 and use them in the RCA managed inputs.

I will double check my connections to make sure what I am saying is correct.

ozzy

Hey Ozzy,

I have the CR-1 up and running, but I’ve run into an issue.

im using scenario 3 where the CR-1 allows me to share both the subs and the front L/R speakers between my AV Processor and my 2 channel Preamp/DAC.

the issue I’m having is related to the fact that my AV Prcessor only has balanced outputs, which is forcing me to use a converter cable turning the balance connection to RCA so I can use the unbalanced inputs on the CR-1.  The balanced XLR connections are used between my 2ch preamp and the CR-1 as the set up guide dictates, while the bypass av processor uses the unbalanced connections.

The issue is; when I hit the bypass button, I get a nasty buzzing in the L/R speakers.  But when I’m using the CR-1 for bass management, there is absolutely no buzzing. 
 

it appears that the CR-1 doesn't like both balanced and unbalanced connections happening at the same time.  If I disconnect the balanced cables from the CR-1 the buzzing stops. 

i suspect it has something to do with the “cheater cables” connected to the AV processor converting the XLR out to RCA unbalanced.

I wonder if you’ve had a similar experience with your set up?

 

thanks!

Thanks Ozzy,

 

Should have the CR-1 today...

hubbman,

I had my Lumin X1 running direct to my tube amps. I now have the JL CR-1 Crossover in between calibrating my JL F-113 subs.

Basically, I set my subs based on their mic and calibration process, then with the CR-1 I used it to find the best crossover setting. I use the subs internal volume setting more than the CR-1 controls to balance the outputs.

Happy to help further if you need it.

ozzy

Hey Ozzy,

I'm about to finally take on the CR-1 project based on our system set up being very similar. Might be hitting you up for some pointers along the way!

As I mentioned we have similar set ups in that I will also be using the HT passthrough and running my 2ch set up from my DAC/Preamp to my amps.  Are you also running your 2ch through a dedicated DAC/pre to the CR-1?

Thanks!

Mike

I recently picked up a CR-1 to pair with two JL F110s along with my Magico Mini IIs. I think it’s a great unit and an essential part of any hi fi stereo setup, even if you’re running full range speakers. I personally think every system needs subwoofers. I’ve listened to top of the line Magico floorstanders that still lacked sub bass notes that my F 110s are capable of producing. And, if you’re using subs, you should be crossing over the high and low frequencies with an active crossover. My Magicos sound tighter, more articulate and open without having to dig deep into the lower registers. I also run my f110s in stereo mode. I know bass is supposed o be non-directional, but in rare instances where bass notes are coming from both channels, like for example Ole by John Coltrane where Art Davis and Reggie Workman both play bass at opposite sides of the soundstage, the bass does seem to localized to the channel the bassist is recorded on. Overall, I give high praise to the F110s for being easy to place in the room thanks to DARO and the CR 1 for saving my amp from having to work too hard producing bass notes on the Magicos where I don’t need them because the subs have it covered. 

Hi. Not really, Ozzy. Partly because I have not done much with it and am not sophisticated. However, as long as I level matched the subs, set phase, ran DARO, there was nothing left fine enough for the damping control to "fix". In my measurements, there is no dip or peak that broad to correct without some compromise. The manual states to set it by ear by way of too lean or full at 80Hz. I have done that with just one decent bass guitar song, and it sounded fine (no revelatory moment of perfect integration ;) +/- 1, then worse beyond that.

 

jmarshak,

I am only using the balanced inputs/outputs, so I leave it as grounded. There is absolutely no noise.

ohlala,

I have used the mono mode for my home theater pass through but otherwise its always in stereo. I have yet to play with the damping controls, any suggestions?

ozzy

The ground switch is a good tip I overlooked. Thanks. 

I switched from master/slave mono to stereo. At that time I phase adjusted R and left channels to 80Hz with an SPL meter and also volume corrected the right channel at 80Hz. Phase was zero in mono mode and the xover was best at 12db.

Either way works the overall results were a compromise. The mono mode at 12db cover luckily reduced 115 and 170Hz peaks while producing a dip at 28Hz. Subjectively I prefer the mono mode, but neither is a slam dunk. 

The damping knobs have a broad reach. Broader bandwidth than I was exprecting and easily measured. At 80Hz, I created a "satellite" dip that went up to over 200Hz.  

 

One thing that might be worth mentioning about the CR-1 are the ground lifting switches in the back.  Their position matters, especially when using RCA ICs.  Owner should definitely test if grounded or floating sounds best to them.

Thanks prof,

I am really surprised at how transparent the CR-1 is. I guess the main speakers used and the crossover point chosen is the challenge to making it shine. The CR-1 allows easy movement of that point for a seamless transition.

ozzy

^^^ sorry for bad formatting.  Typed on new iPhone and for some reason that’s how it formatted 

I had the CR-1 and a couple JL e110 subs for quite a while 

(paired to my Thiel 2.6 speakers).

First of all JL Audio is a stellar company to deal with.

Really helpful customer service and fantastic products!

id first tried integrating the subs “REL style,” running the 

mains full range and adding the subs via the high level 

signal input.  They meshed surprisingly well in terms of audibility 

but not perfect.  I added the Dspeaker anti mode dsp just 

to the subs and it got a little smoother.  Though I kept noting 

an unwelcome change in timbre to my system - too dark

and lifeless.   Finally I added the CR-1 to cross the subs 

with the mains “proper style” and it was significantly better.

I managed to maintain much more of my systems regular 

tone while adding the subs.  The CR1 was a delight to use.

So easy and intuitive.  I loved being able to demo my system

with the subs crossed over or the speakers run full range 

at the push of a button.  That really allowed me to see what the

subs were adding.  Also the CR1 sounded completely transparent!

 

Ultimately I decided against the subwoofers.  I didn’t

find the low bass added much, I didn’t note any particular

clarity or lack of strain in the mids and up, and it still slightly

altered the tone from what I liked.   My speakers sounded to

me more finally real and alive and punchy without the subs.

So I sold it all with no regrets.

 

But I very highly recommend the CR1 for anyone wanting

to integrate subs in the analog domain. 

Just a quick update:

The CR-1 is working excellent!  I cannot tell the difference between running the Lumin X1 direct to my amps or running it through the CR-1. It is that transparent.

Highly recommended.

ozzy

Thanks for your reply, Ozzy. I may try to set the DARO individually. My subs are positioned  to cancel a 40Hz mode, and I do not know how the equalizer will react. Obviously it can only really work at minimum phase. Doesn't hurt to try. 

 

For those of you who do own a CR-1 and want to use it with your home theater. The directions are incorrect. If you connect a RCA sub input from the Home theater into the "Managed Subs" input  on the CR-1 you must output using the same type of output (RCA) to your subs. The same goes for XLR input.

I actually used a XLR/RCA adapter into the "Managed Subs" input so that I could still use the XLR subwoofer outputs.

I hope I explained this correctly.

ozzy

hi @ozzy 

90Hz is what JL recommends.  Also, I tried several from 70hz to 110 and did not like other x-over frequencies any better. Regardless if it's 80 or 90,  I believe the most important part is to find the right phasing on each sub.  That's when the entire system just clicks-in! 

Best Regards

 

jmarshak,

I am crossing over at 80Hz. But still experimenting. Why did you choose 90Hz.?

ozzy

peter_s

Yes that is also my concern since previously I was sending the signal direct from Lumin X1 directly to my amps thus bypassing a preamp and all the associated cabling.

Now with the CR-1 I have again additional electronics and cabling in the chain.

But, so far I am having a hard time determing if there is in fact a reduction in transparancy.

ozzy

@ozzy - I cross over at 90 HZ with CR-1

I have been curious whether the CR-1 reduces any transparency in the signal to the mains. 

ohlala,

Thanks for that info.

With my 4 F-113’s I am using left-right stereo configuration and then connected the same L-R to the rear subs. With all set as Master. This allows the ability to set the DARO individually.

ozzy

I had help from acoustic frontiers in sub/speaker relocation to smooth out bass. I have at least a hundred REW measurement from this misadventure. The subs ended up near opposite corners of the room, which flattened all but the 60Hz. Elevating them half way up the wall helped partially, and the crossover eliminated it. With the fathoms, I now have a 20 Hz issue, below what DARO controls. I pulled one sub out in the room as far as resonable to flatten it, but created a massive 34Hz issue that daro amazingly corrected. I did waterfall overlay between the two radically different positions, and there was not much difference even in decay time. I could not really hear a difference either. I may try moving one sub to the corner, so the pair are symmetric to see what happens. 

Like you suggest, I also EQ’d it then adjusted levels, which is easy. The LF trim control’s bandwidth is too broad, so of course volume has to be adjusted. Unfortunately I do not know how to use stereo with separate phase controls and use DARO at the same time. Are you using master/salve configuration?

gita, Perhaps contact JL Audio for suggestions?

ohlala, If this helps:

I started with my subs close to the back corners, then I used the DARO. After that I tried to blend their output with my main speakers. Then I used the CR-1 to blend everything together.

But, I too am still experimenting with all the other settings. I can say though that just 2 days with the CR-1 and I am pretty happy with the bass intergration.

BTW, I also have 4-ASC 20" tube traps in all 4 corners.

ozzy

I replaced a pair of RELs (using high level input from the amp) with a pair of fathoms with a CR1. This was to correct a 60Hz room mode on the vertical axis generated by the main speakers.  There are measurements pics of this on my system page. The CR1 has a button to switch on/off the crossover circuitry, so A/B is easy. In my case bass extension is a little less and the blurriness around 60Hz reappears with the subs and crossover circuity off. The promise of decreased upper frequency distortion was not materialized in my case, although the coherence between the woofer and the "midrange/tweeter" improved. I have just used factory settings at 80Hz which seems like an obvious choice based on my problem. Playing the damping only made it wound worse. I am still experiemnting with placement/DARO a little bit as well as phase. It seems damping would be normal last step. As a side I find DARO pretty havey handed through its band, making "good enough" placement idiot proof. I am still working through it, though.  

Ozzy, I could put it in front of my Cary sli-80, but that would accommodate only one input; either my cd player or my 'table.

Or I could first put my two sources into a passive preamp, then that pre into the CR-1, then split into the Cary and the subs.

It gets complicated and adds more to the signal path. Discouraging.

Anyway, I don't mean to rain on your parade. Enjoy!

gita,

Never thought about an intergrated amp with the CR-1. Seems like there should be a way to make it work.

ozzy

Congrats, ozzy! I dream of the CR-1.

I have a pair of JL Audio e110s connected like REL. Since I run an integrated that lacks the ability to "loop" the CR-1 into the system, it's going to stay a dream, at least for a while. 

Enjoy!

Thank you so much for the comments. I am really surprised in the difference between line level and speaker level low bass response.

jmarshak,

What crossover frequency are using with your JL subs and crossover?

ozzy

The CR-1 has been a very impactful addition to my system for 2 years now. The main improvement was unexpected; the speaker's (high frequency and midrange) output became clearer. JL explained that it’s due to the speakers being alleviated from the lower frequency bass duty. The cross overs (on the subs) cannot do this. The CR-1 is excellent.

@ozzy - I can’t imagine using 4 of these JL F113 beasts. I have 2, my room is 18X20x9 and the bass is very palatable in the listening locations. The bass must be extremely uniform in your room. Best Regards.

 

When I looked at RELs design and read THEIR BS. I did the same. They are WAY behind in Bass tech. It is literally 70-80s tech. Bottom firing with NO butt plate (or slot loaded). There is NO way to decouple from the floor without adding a slot.. 

NONE of my buddies have used subs constructed like that in 30 years.... Nice paint though.. LOL REL owners like SPL, and FEELING the bass that's easy.. Buy exciters.. doing the same thing.. smearing the bass signal over evey surface in the room behind NOT decoupling.. They sound terrible to me, make my ears hurt..

I use to run JL W12s in my auto stuff in the 90s I think it was W12s Serious drivers..

Regards

I don't know anything about the JL CR-1, but I've been a big believer in using the low level inputs to all my subs. Exactly what you have described, more very deep bass. Some REL "experts" think using the high level inputs are better, so I just quit debating this. Enjoy!