@mozartfan, This is a fascinating subject. No matter how far you go back into the earliest days of recording you invariably find the engineers looking for some way to enhance their recordings. Even those renowned Maria Callas recordings from the early 50s weren’t as honest as we’d like to think. Different venues, different microphones, different positions, different singing styles with miles and miles of tape used. Eventually the best takes were very carefully selected to finally create an album such as highly regarded Tosca recorded in Milan back in 1953. I’m getting the impression that vocal honesty and integrity were never the intention in recording. Only some kind of striving towards an imagined perfection as far as the vocalist’s talents and the technology of the time would allow. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tosca_(1953_EMI_recording) |
Mozartfan, do you have a degree in ignorance?
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wow just cked Diana Krall is still performing,,, wow, Diana just barely pulled off vocals 20 yrs ago,, can she still do it now with 20 years added to your voice?
Oh yeah, like New Orleans Jazz Fest here, where you get to hear old legends which croak their tunes like frogs, which before sang like Nightingales |
I believe some opera halls use microphones for some of the artists. It's a contentious issue.
I would not be surprised some mod sopranos have tweaking going on in recordings,, vs the old legendary sopranos real talents
So yeah its possible going on in post 2000 opera recordings, productions. These mod recording engineers are slick,, they know how to pull it off w/o attracting much attention.
Take Faith Hill, no denying she sings with passion, these rare gifts flow through her records,, but also you can hear some ~~amplification/extentions~~ which definetly transform her muisc into a more magical experience.
So again its a 2 sided blade, True vocal fidelity vs a more enjoyable WOW experience that overwhelms the senses?
I find faith Hill's records, acceptable, although if i heard her Unplugged at her peak,, what impressions would we walk away with?
See what i am saying here. |
concert. Great music, great musicians. I don’t get your beef against her. And she has been a top seller, while her concerts still sellout. What could be the problem with that?
Diana ’s voice has been ~~commercialIZED~~, transformed by modern gadgets to get stardom/sales/contracts/profirts,, The Money Factor has become more impoartnt than the artist actual level of skills.
Its what i have been saying in all my posts. Not sure why/how you missed my points so frequently stated so claerly, not hyped like some modern vocal artists. |
Cinema trailers often tend to overdose on it.
Oh yeah no doubt, Disney Studios lods their movies with sound effects,, sucking kids in with unrealistic, fakeness, falseness, lie-ness, where kids can't tell whats reality and what is fantasy any longer.
I hate Disney, its a destoryer of kids minds. Fake movies, fake sound effects. That fakeness rubs off on gentle minds |
Rick Rubin and Mark Ronson
Great , please Name NAMES,, lets black tar these producers of fake vocals, Both big cheats, big scam artists, ,
Old Ricky and Mark, putting marekting sales profits over real art, art for art's sake.
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One thing we know for sure is that Kraal's husband (Elvis Costello) doesn't rely on recording gimmicks to improve his voice
I had no idea they were married.
Yes Elvis Costello vocals on his master hit record Burt Bacharach compliation back in early 2000ish, seems not to have much tweaking. and the live , seems even less so. |
@mozartfan,
’And btw the RS had onlya few good songs, all written by the creative and talented Brian Jones, , then again , drugs didn’t hurt that process.
To me drug induced music should be canceled. I never listen to rock any longer.’
Agree with you about Brian Jones. Once he was kicked out the Stones lost a lot of texture to their sound and gradually became a good Rolling Stones tribute band.
Can’t agree about the drugs though. Without pot and LSD the 1960s would have sounded entirely different. Lord knows what drugs the kids are all using today.
’Should all voice manipulation gadets be banned, outlawed from any/every record, no matter what genre,’
’So yeah, thats my beef, studio tech geeks gone wild with modern gadgets, giving us what is not really The Real Deal.’
Partially agree. It would be nice to have more recordings with natural life-like recordings. However I’ve read that it’s the absolute norm to avoid flat recordings.
At the very least a dose of compression is considered mandatory to any recording/radio TV broadcast. Cinema trailers often tend to overdose on it.
It would appear also that many vocalists are insecure of their talents and specifically choose studios, producers, effects etc to get an idealised sounding version of themselves. One that they hope the public will buy into.
In any case we’re now in the high speed social media age where the wish to improve upon nature is at its greatest. This human desire was probably was always there but now we have many means of enabling it.
Image enhancement seems to be incredibly important today and thus the natural look / sound seems unsophisticated and decidedly out of fashion.
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I dont even know if it is music.... It is only extraordinary powerful... Is it music? is it voice? I dont give a dam... Is it Billie Holiday? No.... But the power to convey emotions cannot be a mechanical process nor only talent.... Embodied genius perhaps? :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2XUrySbdUE |
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I have 9 or 10 of her albums. I don’t listen to them as I once did. She can sing, and plays very good piano. Her best work was the 2001 blu ray of the Live In Paris concert. Great music, great musicians. I don’t get your beef against her. And she has been a top seller, while her concerts still sellout. What could be the problem with that? |
As several have pointed out, microphones, venue, electronics, the sound engineer influence what we hear. If you dont like diana krall, just say so
Yeah I admit, some of my words might have been cheap shots at Diana Krall's talents , which is not right. Diana has beena super talent for many jazz/music fans world over.
AS I got to thinking , my gripe has more to do with studio tech geeks taking liberties with new high tech gadgets.
I mean , no doubt starting in the early 80's (according to my tech guy who says thats really when these mods/tweaks really began) , the tweaking on voice has gonea bit too far.
Many of you here know what I am talking about.
So aside from Diana Krall (Completely, taking Diana off the discussion)
are the studio tech geeks guilty of something here..
Thats my Q.
Should all voice manipulation gadets be banned, outlawed from any/every record, no matter what genre, Well rap is not music anyway, so that group is allowed freely to make whatever noise they wish.
We are only concerned with real muisc, pop, jazz, folk.
It is my belief we need to get back to pre electronic tweaks, and start all over.
Unplugged.
Yeah I know , how dull, boring.
And btw the RS had onlya few good songs, all written by the creative and talented Brian Jones, , then again , drugs didn't hurt that process.
To me drug induced music should be canceled. I never listen to rock any longer.
So yeah, thats my beef, studio tech geeks gone wild with modern gadgets, giving us what is not really The Real Deal.
I feel this is fair and balanced, and hard to argue against.
I have no hidden agenda, the tech geeks are exposed. The studios have The Agenda, what sells, financial gains over art for art's sake.
We need to get back to pure folk music, unfiltered,/ unplugged. |
It sounds like you finally have a system where you can hear the effects added to vocals, Mozartfan. You’ll start to notice this with a lot in recordings, since many artists work with recording engineers who like to add flavor and keep things interesting. If this isn’t your thing, I suggest sticking to classical recordings where this isn’t done. I’m not sure what you’re moaning about exactly, but you don’t sound like someone very into enjoying music with all your complaining about how everyone is doing it wrong. Tell us your secret to authentic sound quality or stop whining and admit you don’t know what’s best, you just don’t like what many others do. |
It sounds like you finally have a system where you can hear the effects added to vocals, Mozartfan. You’ll probably start to notice this a lot in recordings, since many artists work with recording engineers who like to add flavor and keep things interesting. If this isn’t your thing, I suggest sticking to classical recordings where this isn’t done. I’m not sure what you’re moaning about exactly, but you don’t sound like someone very into enjoying music with all your complaining about how everyone is doing it wrong. Tell us your secrets or shut up. |
@mozartfan - give it up.
Your post came across initially as an attack on DK. You havent done/said/written anything to defend your argument.
As several have pointed out, microphones, venue, electronics, the sound engineer influence what we hear. If you dont like diana krall, just say so. I personally cant stand the stones. They are far from original and sound like someone is striking a cat's paws with a hammer. And that is on a good day!
Would i use them as reference material? No! I would use something/someone i am more intimately familiar with in that i listen to a recording/selection/performance over and over and... Jessica by The Allman Brothers comes to mind.
To make the sort of back handed attack as your OP does a disservice to all of us in here. You are better then that. |
I think you misunderstand whazt i said in the OP, The whole isssues here is ~~modern studio engineers, did they get carried away with their gadgets,,a bit too far from the original voice~~. I spoke with my tech guy,on this Q, he says, alot of the voice mods really began in the early 80's. IOW all others before , voices were tweaked, slightly extended. DK's voice, though talented, can not hold up under *Unplugged sessions*. Here,you hear what i mean, Sure Patsy's voice has a amplification, which only lends more vol, thrust to her voice range,, But does not mask any weaknesses. = More organic, vs the modern engineered variety, = not all fake, but lets say, Not as real as we might think. Lets not get carried away in modern times, by modern gadgets. There was once a Golden Age of Singing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuZTk1hdpMs
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Wow. Now we have not only "fake news", but "fake singers".My suggestion would be to listen to Diana Krall's "Live in Paris" and perhaps entertain the notion that you are completely out to lunch on this.
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If you want clean vocals, get some of the Sheffield Direct-to-Disk recordings ...... Amanda McBroom. Or Confederation. Or an Opus disk ... Bert Deivert. Or even the original Columbia Bob Dylan recording, where they just stuck him in front of a Neuman mic and let him sing and play. |
Every recording is "equalized" if only by the choice of mic, since every mic sounds different and the engineer will choose one that benefits the performer's voice. This is also true of amplified live performances although to a lesser extent. Mics there are sometimes chosen for their reliability and ruggedness. Take away the mic and sound system from any pop singer and you will be disappointed by the sound of their voice in a large venue. |
One thing we know for sure is that Kraal's husband (Elvis Costello) doesn't rely on recording gimmicks to improve his voice.
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A XRCD by JVC I highly recommend of Carmen is: As Time Goes By, Alone At The Dug. It is just she and her piano, recorded live. I just noticed that it is also available on LP. I may NEED to get that!
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Carmen McRae alway's get's top a billing with me! Nice examples Russ. |
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Bo Kasper
Yes Indeed, Bo casper, Sound via my $10 comp speakers has this super high fidelity, = incredible reference cd and the music is very good. Nice recommend, make any system sound Class AAA And thats how dealers would sell us grade C speakers, with high quality reference cds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Z9e6U5V4E
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pure natural. Personally I like the Girl next door but it is to bassy in some parts. I use it for reference just because of that. You should not only use perfect recordings for reference. Close-miked recordings are often unlistenable on good systems, they’re done for radio. Have a listen to Bo Kasper "10 songs live".
Yes some tracks on Sophie Milman have a certain level of bass db, that seem to hard driving on the small 6 inch midwoofers in the Thors, , the Defy7 has too much slam watts even at low vol, Might be the new Mundorf Supreme Silvergold caps adding that bass slam.
One of the best reference cds for velvety bass riffs is Burt Bacharach/Elvis Costello's cd
On picking through Diana Krall tracks, to have her best, , its not really something i like to do, Sophie Milman and Jacintha, both offer wonderful music , on all tracks.
Same with Bacharach/Costello,
That brings up our old rock days, we used to listen to lp's, and skip a bunch of songs as *duds*,,
I think Diana Krall was a *1 hit wonder*, although she has more than 1 hit, its the *duds* you have to get through with.
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If you listen to all DK’s cd’s you will find that her voice differs a lot from recording to recording and also track to track. Pick the one’s you like most. Surely none of them are pure natural. Personally I like the Girl next door but it is to bassy in some parts. I use it for reference just because of that. You should not only use perfect recordings for reference. Close-miked recordings are often unlistenable on good systems, they’re done for radio. Have a listen to Bo Kasper "10 songs live". |
I believe some opera halls use microphones for some of the artists. It's a contentious issue.
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I think it's generally agreed that pop music singers are not the be-all end-all in vocal performance. In fact some of them are hardly singers at all, nor would claim to be. Not everyone can be a Robert Plant, Josh Groban, Ella Fitzgerald, Doris Day, or a Karen Carpenter etc.
Opera singers on the other hand have to perform live on stage without amplification or vocal enhancements in front of demanding audiences whilst performing often difficult repertoire.
Folk/ country singers also may often sing 'naked' in front of live audiences (not so much currently) accompanied only by a guitar.
For marketing reasons record companies (and artists) seek to employ producers like Rick Rubin and Mark Ronson who have that golden touch which can turn albums into big sellers.
They've both made some great records but I'd say that vocal fidelity was never the main concern of theirs. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if even artists like Andrea Bocelli didn't get the odd bit of help on his records.
It's just the way it is today, and probably always has been.
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I still have no idea what you're talking about. At least we have that one thing in common. |
Looks like you have a hidden agenda to smear the reputation of a very accomplished artist.
~~The Hidden Agenda~ is obvious, not at all obscure,. Others here and on my other topic also hestitate to over-applaud Diana's singing skills.
**she is good, but I am looking for more than just gooD* quoted from a post on the other topic.
Thats what i am trying to sy,,look how Grammy's awards sell out show s she had in her heyday.. , Yes we all agree, the lady has many fine talents,,But lets not get carried away. Of course I have to put some of the blame of modern voice wteeking gadgets and record engineers who may have gone a bit far in her voice mods.
This is my point,, in no way am I knocking her talents. She is a fine artist,, just not how far the positive reviews go.
Lets be realistic. here.
Folk singers around the world never had modern electronic voice mods,, , This idea of tweeking vocals has gone too far to claim *great* next to a recorded artists name. Consider mariah Carey,, queen of voice mods, If we heard her sing without electric mods,, we might all throw tomotoes, rotten ones at that, and demand a refund.
Mariah can hit few notes, but she can't sing. Its all computerized fake notes. |
@edcyn, Wow, that is something! The Capitol Records Building has just got to be one of the most beautiful iconic man made structures in the world. I hope it lasts forever. @mozartfan, I bet I love that record as much as you, but you do know that's it's drenched in echo and reverb? Patsy Cline would not sound anything like that if she was singing live in front of us. Definitely not if she was recording it today. Sadly the era of such 'wet' recordings has long passed by. Nowadays a more 'dry' sound is preferred, and I'm guessing because it's easier to reproduce live in concert. Fans also seem prefer a more dry modern sound, although some like k.d. lang and Lana Del Rey still seem to try to get that vintage sound on some of their recordings. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable in the subject could help us out. https://youtu.be/MbnrdCS57d0https://musicianshq.com/what-is-the-difference-between-reverb-echo-and-delay/ |
Krall had a voice once , is gone .
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As for Diana, I didn’t meet her, (and without eavesdropping) in small narrow aisle antique store in New Orleans, heard her conversation with Harry Connick, Jr. (After a long look up and down at Diana, I was busy looking at Harry’s model wife, whew). Hoping Donna didn’t notice my mouth hanging open.
Point is, I heard both of their actual unamplified voices. Next day we saw/heard Diana perform in big tent at NO Jazz Festival, amplified sounded ’correct’. Same thing next day with Harry.
We heard Harry perform in big lobby of bldg in NYC, sound system so bad you would not know it was his voice.
Saw/heard Diana live/amplified 3 other times, once with Tony Bennett Radio City, she always sounded very much like herself. Same with Tony, we have seen/heard him live/amplified 6 times, always the same. Both of these artists have pro’s looking out for them.
Neither of them needs any help electronically, eq adjust, auto-tune, ... they are great singers.
My problem with Diana is she sings too much, and plays too little. I first heard her playing piano, not singing, on WBGO Jazz radio. Caught my ear, so good I waited to the end when they tell you who that was. Awesome pianist, didn’t know she could sing, or the legs, the looks, ....
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I would agree that she is a better pianist than vocalist, but dull? Hardly. |
@mozartfan,
Diana Krall is a real deal...if you find ‘a case of you’ dull you’re clearly not a fan of her or understand jazz genre. I have watched her perform live few times and she has a beautiful voice.
Also, it would help tremendously to get a decent audio system before you sit down to critique a studio recording on your boom box :-)
Looks like you have a hidden agenda to smear the reputation of a very accomplished artist. If you’re so bored with your life, atleast pick a better topic for discussion.
I agree with most of the posters, You have no idea what you are talking about. |
I gotta say Jennifer Warnes’ The Hunter has some very fine music, with recorded sound to match. Linda Ronstadt & Emmylou Harris’ Tucson Sessions also, much less processed than most of their other records. And of course there’s Norah Jones, for instance I’ve Got to See You Again, from her debut album. No fancy vocal shenanigans. Diana Krall is a real artist, no apologies for liking her work.
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A few years back my Wife and I went out for dinner and hopefully a good jazz performance at the Jazz Corner in Hilton Head. If you have never been you need to go! Anyway Sachal Vasandani was doing a one night performance as he just got back from a two week tour in China. Wow what an evening! Hey the dinner was amazing also |
Heard her live a couple of times good as Gold.
You can count on most studio recordings to be tweaked including those that are mixed down after live performances. Her genre is bordering on Jazz Vocals and Pop. Whatever she is doing good for her and good for our Agon community. |
Are we talking about autotune?
Yeah something like that,, but obviously her record studio has alot more high tech gadgets tahn just the old autotune. It's statements like this that show the OP really don't know what he's talking about. A simple internet search brings up information that indicate there is minimal "processing" of her vocals. It's also easy to find live concert footage of her performances, for instance the NPR material, to use as a reference. |
cd318 -- I actually got a tour of those Capitol Records' subterranean echo facilities. It was sometime in the 1970's. The drummer in our rock band wrote publicity for Capitol and had an office in the famous tower. The office was tiny but he did have a view of the Hollywood Hills. Anyway, knowing that they weren't in use he took me down there. Yeah, I was impressed.
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OP
Try listening to Julie London, pop/ jazz singer from 50’s 60’s esp sultry “cry me a river”.
Just sit back, close your eyes and listen, deep in the ears...
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I have been to small clubs in the late eighties in Manhattan and was lucky enough to hear some great vocalists sing along side a trio of musicians about 8-10 feet away. Their voices live are very distinct, real and unforgettable but their recordings on CD are done in the studio and therefore better sounding. One of my most memorable performance was Astrud Gilbertothen . I still listen to her music up to now in awe and wish I've seen here more than once. There is nothing better than to listen to her in your audio room and pretend she's performing in front of you. That's where good audio can do.
Thorek |
I mean she sings OK, I feel this song is a bit of a bore,, drags a bit, and we can hear her voice free of studio gadgets. I think had the studio not modded her voice on records,,, may not have been as convincing, I know some jazz buffs noticed the studio mods which i hear. Can be a bit annoying. I find this song a bit dull.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZZYDd4SsEk
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Diana Krall live? Now your talking. Outstanding. |
I've seen DK live and she is definitely the real deal!!
I think her best yet is "Turn up the Quiet"
On a lot of the songs you can can hear her voice break like she's lost her voice. All part of the performance and I love it, manipulation or not.
Have a listen to Rodger Millers Little green Apples. Just his unique voice and minimal guitar notes...amazing
Oh because of Diana Krall, my son will now actually listen to Jazz
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I have seen her perform many times and i can assure you she is the real deal! |
