I have been a music fan all my life and listen to classic Jazz and female vocals mostly. I did not see this throughout most of my life, but now some internet sites and more seem to lump Jazz and Blues into the same thought. B.B. King is great, but he is not Jazz. Paul Desmond is great, but he is not Blues.
Perhaps next Buck Owens will be considered Blues, or Lawrence Welk or let's have Buddy Holly as a Jazz artist?
Trite, trivial and ill informed, it is all the rage in politics, why not music?
Whatever name you put on them, the debut albums of Van Dyke Parks and (for example) Led Zeppelin are extremely different things. About all they have in common is that they are both music (being generous to LZ ;-). Maybe that's a bad example: Van's Song Cycle has more in common with Classical than it does with Rock.
Now that I've said that: if we consider it acceptable to differentiate between Classical and Rock, why not between Rock and Jazz? Hey, I'm just askin'! But Blues and Jazz? Too much in common to keep them separate.
Music is just 'music' until someone puts a label on it.
As the Duke said "there are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind ... the only yardstick by which the result should be judged is simply that of how it sounds. If it sounds good it's successful; if it doesn't it has failed."
This is from a person who knew a lot about jazz and doubtless something about the blues as well. A man and a woman can argue endlessly about their differences but if they allow the differences to mingle the result is spectacular. If you don't know what I mean ask your Dad.
In an interview, Carl Perkins said he desperately wanted to find a way out of the fields in Tennessee, where he toiled picking cotton. He found it in Rock ’n’ Roll. Until that moment, I was unaware Southern white’s also picked cotton ;-) . Brutal way to make a living, much worse than the truck driving Elvis was at the same time doing.
Oh contraire, of Billie Holiday's Strange Fruit - I think about the 2nd time I 'really' heard it, I wanted to cry...
And also I would like to say something about the Blues that I've always considered fascinatingly contradictory of the art form itself?
Back in the days, in the country (south) when the shotgun house was on Saturday nights, turned into a little juke joint, that house was a jumping!
With one hell of a house party! The corn liquor was flowing and the catfish was frying! Imagine that, the blues making you happy!
Just to be alive!
Jumpin, bumpin and grinding!
Frogman, you live in a musical universe of your own creation, and you never run out of "rose colored glasses".
"Feeling blue” is expressed in songs whose verses lament injustice or express longing for a better life and lost loves, jobs, and money. That's one definition.
"True Blues" has lyrics, while Blues in jazz is purely instrumental. Jazz was developed in our cities while Blues was developed in the cotton fields of the South, and the lyrics expressed deep dark misery and the desire to escape that misery.
I know if I was born in an unpainted shotgun shack in the middle of nowhere, I would most certainly have the Blues.
More often than not, the only things jazz and Blues musicians have in common is "ethnicity"; Miles Davis's father was a Dentist, and he went to Juilliard School of music in New York. What school of music did B. B. King go to?
Jazz, Blues, and Gospel were lumped together for the same reason everything else was lumped together some time ago, "ethnicity".
In typical fashion, threads lose focus and go off in directions that are irrelevant. There is a tendency to dig one’s heels in and miss the forest for the trees.
I don’t recall anyone here claiming that there are no important differences between Blues and Jazz; or that they should be called the same thing. To claim so would be absurd. The over simplified title of the thread is only one part of the OP’s premise and complaint. The complaint was: “why do the two get lumped together?” I think that plenty of factual data has been presented and a pretty good case made for why they do get lumped together; and rightfully so. They are musical cousins having related genetic blue prints.
I think that this tune has been beaten to death and I will leave the discussion with this thought: there is a reason that I can find my Pepper Jack cheese in the same aisle as the milk 😋 (love those food analogies!).
I do find it interesting Orpheus10, knowing how many times you have come across the phrase “No Blues, no Jazz”, that this is the first time that I have noticed your objection to the premise 🤔
All of that music is called "The Blues". Do you hear a major difference between what's called Blues in Jazz and what's called "Blues" since I can remember and even before then? Or is that the difference between "Delta Blues" and all other Blues?
This gets back to the OP's original statement,
Jazz is not Blues and Blues is not Jazz.......
It also shows blues pioneer Charley Patton, an early 20th Century Mississippi Delta guitarist of Choctaw and African-American ancestry, fused Native American rhythms with black music.
Co-director Catherine Bainbridge says the film presents a missing chapter in the history of American popular music.
How's this, Country Western, Rock and Roll, Blues and Jazz were ALL born in the USA. They are bound to cross a few boundaries. Wrong country for being a purest, ay?
If you think about it, one was born from the another, or branched and taken from another. It's not like Opera, Dixieland jazz, Bali, or Bagpipes, crossing lines... Just sayin, more alike than not...
The older I get the more I learn that the blues or any american music for that matter is a melting pot of all music that came before it. Even the indigenous music of the american indian had just as much effect on the creation of blues as any of the european and african music that is given more credit.
Even in New Orleans the black folks of the 1800's recognised that the indian population and people were treated even worse than the black man. And if that ain't the blues, I don't no what is.
Legend has it Charlie Patton, the so called father of Delta Mississippi blues was part Choctaw which had a profound effect on the music he was creating or should I say melting. I have learned to love
Delta Mississippi music. Blues, french, spanish and indigenous indian and all. After all Mississippi is a Choctaw word.
I suspect that most of the pianos in the various “venues” that Joplin played were not fully in tune with themselves either. You’re in good company. Some of those old pianos do have great tone; sounds like you have a good one.
Through sheer good fortune, a book of piano sheet music a neighbor laid on me happened to have a xerox of Scott Joplin's rag "The Chrysanthemum" hidden inside. I thought I was a knowledgeable Scott Joplin fan, but this particular piece had completely eluded me. Anyway, I'm hearing it for the first time, under my fingers. It's totally wonderful. Yeah, to put it gently, the music is a bit above my station in terms of difficulty, but on a good day I can almost pull off maybe eighty percent of it. BTW, the music the book actually contains is uniformly awful.
As for my piano, it's an early 20th Century Mason-Hamlin studio upright. It can no longer be tuned to standard pitch, and it will never be fully in tune with itself but it's got tone, tone, tone! My audio-fool ears bathe in luxury.
Ragtime was a precursor of Jazz. Late 1800’s-early 1900’s.
RAGtime . Ragged rhythm : syncopation; the main defining characteristic of Jazz (the “swing”). Ragtime was not really Jazz in the strictest sense of the word since there was no improvisation to speak of . Players (Morton) would later incorporate improvisation along with other influences such as Blues and Jazz was born. No big mystery here as it is well documented.
The evolution of Jazz is linear; it builds on what came before. Same can be said of practically all art.
I notice nobody has mentioned "Ragtime", which is linked to Scott Joplin and Jelly Roll Morton who claims to have invented jazz.
It seems that what's called modern jazz has come a long way. While modern jazz borrows from many genres of music, I don't believe they are connected in a linear sort of way, like if we didn't have this we couldn't have that. Where does "Ragtime" come in;
That Clarksdale clip pretty much defined the "real" Blues, and Jazz is still jazz; my ears tell me so. When I hear any of the classic Blues players from Clarksdale playing "On Green Dolphin Street" I might have a change of heart.
The two have obviously diverged but they come from the same place blues being a bit more ancient. Jazz frequently plays homage to blues as in Kind of Blue. But the intent of genres has changed so much that blues in particular is hardly recognizable. Jazz is now composed of numerous mini genres some of which are hardly recognizable as music. I can always listen to John Lee But the Art Ensemble of Chicago can get a bit tedious and I have to be in the mood and alone in the house.
Of course it doesn’t matter. That is the point. Isn’t it? It doesn’t matter. That is precisely the rebuttal to the premise of the original post. As Duke said, “there are only two kinds of music....good and bad”.
However, if opening that can of worms one must, then other issues become relevant and inescapable if trying to define it. History and influences are just two; not to mention things like musical form and other theory. That Grant Green clip had a lot more in common with the Blues than just the “form”.
Now, about “credentials”. Did guitarist Peter Green pick cotton? I kinda doubt it. I guess that means he is not a Blues player. Tell that to all his fans.
Bottom line (and re that Grant Green clip):
Classic twelve bar Blues form. Uses a Blues tonality and scales. Is inflected like the Blues......it’s a Blues.
Strange. I always thought Blues got lumped together with Rhythm, not Jazz.
Anyway, this debate is about as productive as trying to arrive at universally accepted definitions of what is yellow and what is orange.
Sure, the 12 bar blues is a classic blues form. A form that has been used ("appropriated"????) zillions of times by jazz players, who don't have the "credentials" to be considered blues players. So when the 12 bar blues are played by a jazz player, what is the music: blues, or jazz? And more importantly, does it matter?
Good question Frogman, beside the fact that I'm in pursuit of that vinyl LP and I think it's a most significant jazz tune, I had no real point, but I realize that is the central cause of confusion.
It seems that even "jazz musicians" are confused by what is, and what is not blues, and that includes Miles Davis. He said he liked Blues but gave no example. I bet nobody from "Clarksdale" would be confused; they can tell the difference between blues and jazz. I go along with the people from Clarksdale.
Anytime jazz musicians have spoken of the Blues, I always went away with a question mark on my mind because they are never definitive; it's always jazz with a "blue feeling" but not real blues.
**** not as one of those "jazz tunes" with Blues in the title.****
Honest question. What, then, would YOU call that tune in your Grant Green clip? It uses the standard 12 bar Blues form, sounds like a Blues (in part) and has “Blues” in the title; but was played by musicians known primarily as Jazz players. What was the point you were making by posting it? Thanks.
Whatjd, don't let all this talk confuse you, it is as you say it is, not as they desire.
Blues people and jazz people are as different as night and day, even when they look alike. First, lets not beat around the bush, blues is defined as "Delta Blues" or some derivative thereof, not as one of those "jazz tunes" with Blues in the title.
The jazz center of the world is New York city, not Jackson or Clarksdale Mississippi.
Most Blues musicians have picked cotton, most jazz musicians have not; that is also a classic cultural difference. I could go on indefinitely, but I wont, I believe you get the picture.
@edcyn, I know what you mean with your "fussy, smug" characterization of some Jazz guitar playing. There is one guitarist who doesn’t play Jazz that way, and he’s also great at Blues, Hillbilly, Rockabilly, 50’s Rock ’n’ Roll, and just about any other music that can be played on six strings: Danny Gatton. He is a true musician’s musician (Vince Gill, himself a mighty fine player, nicknamed him "The Humbler"). He’s no longer with us, but most of his many albums are pretty easy to find. There is also a 2-CD retrospective collection on Rhino Records.
**** They came on "one" radio station only, along with Gospel on Sunday. That’s how they came to be lumped together. ****
That may very well be how they came to be lumped together, but there is a reason for WHY they were lumped together. Because Jazz, Blues and Gospel all come from the same place (metaphorically speaking); they have much in common so are likely to appeal to the same listener base. After all, why not Classical on Sunday instead?Polka on Monday and Tuesday is just as bad 😉.
I don't suppose everyone is old enough to remember "radio"; meaning what we listened to for entertainment because few people had TV.
I was a child myself, so that was a long time ago. Blues was "Delta Blues" and jazz was Charlie Parker, Dizzy, Sonny Stitt, and the most prominent jazz musicians. They came on "one" radio station only, along with Gospel on Sunday. That's how they came to be lumped together.
That was the answer to the question almost 70 years ago. Does an answer to a question that's 70 years old count?
Orpheus10’s Grant Green clip illustrates perfectly both the obvious overlaps between Blues and Jazz and the problem and futility of attempts to make a strict distinction between the two genres. Not to mention that it answers beautifully his own question “Tell me what the two have in common?”. The answer, of course, is “a lot”.
What I mean is that I would be willing to wager my mint condition Muddy Waters records (or Miles records, your pick 😎) that at least half of all listeners, if asked whether that clip is Blues or Jazz without knowing the title, would say “Jazz”.
What you said made all the sense in the world, but in a hazy sort of way.
I prefer precise terminology, but only in math and science is terminology precise, never in music, and therein lies "this" problem. Therefore it can not be truly resolved.
Blues and jazz are simply two different ways to express feelings...in music. Blues can have some Jazzy aspects, just like Jazz can have some Bluesy aspects..Neither have to be exclusive to one another, so long as the vibe is there...if this makes sense.
Yeah, Orpheus, I was trying to be as straightforward as I could when describing the technical differences between the two genres. That, though, doesn't mean I prefer one genre over the other. Particularly, when it comes to the guitar, blues has it all over jazz in my book. To my ears, most jazz guitar playing comes off as fussy, smug and under powered. More interested in technique than passion or emotional expression. As a matter of fact, the only jazz guitar player I ever truly loved or aspired to play like was Django (and I do relentlessly play Django-style guitar and Stephane Grappelli-style fiddle). Good blues & rock guitar playing, by contrast, truly plumbs the emotional depths. Happy, sad, angry, ironic, jubilant, tender, strutting...guitarists put it all on the table.
Good example, @orpheus10. Ray is imo the most important and influential male singer of 20th Century Pop music (along with Hank Williams). Does that sound too "grand"? ;-)
And I consider Big Joe Turner perhaps the first Rock 'n' Roll singer. He too straddled the line separating Blues and Jazz, coming from the Kansas City Jazz scene, but recording the original version of "Shake, Rattle, & Roll" (covered by Bill Haley for the white market). I came to love Joe when I discovered the whole Jump Blues scene of the late-40's/early-50's. Great, great stuff.
Have you ever heard John Lee Hooker play jazz? Have you ever heard Howlin Wolf play jazz? Have you ever heard Lightnin Hopkins play jazz? Have you ever heard Elmore James play jazz? Maybe there's more to it than;
but the bedrock blues pattern is One Four Five One. In Jazz, it's Two Five One. If you say it in your Do-Re-Mi's, the Blues chord progression is basically Do-Fa-So-Do. In jazz it's Re-So-Do.
If you really want to search down a root difference between jazz and blues, go to the chord progressions that underpin the vast majority of the tunes & licks in the two genres. Forgive me if I simultaneously over-simplify and get a little technical here, but the bedrock blues pattern is One Four Five One. In Jazz, it's Two Five One. If you say it in your Do-Re-Mi's, the Blues chord progression is basically Do-Fa-So-Do. In jazz it's Re-So-Do.
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