In typical fashion, threads lose focus and go off in directions that are irrelevant. There is a tendency to dig one’s heels in and miss the forest for the trees.
I don’t recall anyone here claiming that there are no important differences between Blues and Jazz; or that they should be called the same thing. To claim so would be absurd. The over simplified title of the thread is only one part of the OP’s premise and complaint. The complaint was: “why do the two get lumped together?” I think that plenty of factual data has been presented and a pretty good case made for why they do get lumped together; and rightfully so. They are musical cousins having related genetic blue prints.
I think that this tune has been beaten to death and I will leave the discussion with this thought: there is a reason that I can find my Pepper Jack cheese in the same aisle as the milk 😋 (love those food analogies!).
I do find it interesting Orpheus10, knowing how many times you have come across the phrase “No Blues, no Jazz”, that this is the first time that I have noticed your objection to the premise 🤔
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I suspect that most of the pianos in the various “venues” that Joplin played were not fully in tune with themselves either. You’re in good company. Some of those old pianos do have great tone; sounds like you have a good one.
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Ragtime was a precursor of Jazz. Late 1800’s-early 1900’s.
RAGtime . Ragged rhythm : syncopation; the main defining characteristic of Jazz (the “swing”). Ragtime was not really Jazz in the strictest sense of the word since there was no improvisation to speak of . Players (Morton) would later incorporate improvisation along with other influences such as Blues and Jazz was born. No big mystery here as it is well documented.
The evolution of Jazz is linear; it builds on what came before. Same can be said of practically all art.
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twoleftears,
Of course it doesn’t matter. That is the point. Isn’t it? It doesn’t matter. That is precisely the rebuttal to the premise of the original post. As Duke said, “there are only two kinds of music....good and bad”.
However, if opening that can of worms one must, then other issues become relevant and inescapable if trying to define it. History and influences are just two; not to mention things like musical form and other theory. That Grant Green clip had a lot more in common with the Blues than just the “form”.
Now, about “credentials”. Did guitarist Peter Green pick cotton? I kinda doubt it. I guess that means he is not a Blues player. Tell that to all his fans.
Bottom line (and re that Grant Green clip):
Classic twelve bar Blues form. Uses a Blues tonality and scales. Is inflected like the Blues......it’s a Blues.
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**** not as one of those "jazz tunes" with Blues in the title.****
Honest question. What, then, would YOU call that tune in your Grant Green clip? It uses the standard 12 bar Blues form, sounds like a Blues (in part) and has “Blues” in the title; but was played by musicians known primarily as Jazz players. What was the point you were making by posting it? Thanks.
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**** They came on "one" radio station only, along with Gospel on Sunday. That’s how they came to be lumped together. ****
That may very well be how they came to be lumped together, but there is a reason for WHY they were lumped together. Because Jazz, Blues and Gospel all come from the same place (metaphorically speaking); they have much in common so are likely to appeal to the same listener base. After all, why not Classical on Sunday instead?Polka on Monday and Tuesday is just as bad 😉.
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Orpheus10’s Grant Green clip illustrates perfectly both the obvious overlaps between Blues and Jazz and the problem and futility of attempts to make a strict distinction between the two genres. Not to mention that it answers beautifully his own question “Tell me what the two have in common?”. The answer, of course, is “a lot”.
What I mean is that I would be willing to wager my mint condition Muddy Waters records (or Miles records, your pick 😎) that at least half of all listeners, if asked whether that clip is Blues or Jazz without knowing the title, would say “Jazz”.
Nice clip. |
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Glad you added that “other common denominator”. I was about to point that out as a response to your “obvious connection” of ethnicity comment. Putting ethnicity aside, swing is the most important component of both Blues and Jazz and another obvious common ground as you point out. And as your Neil Peart account describes so well, the reason that relative “difficulty“ is not as obvious as it may seem. Sure, from a music theory and “technical” standpoint, Jazz is usually more complicated; but, not always. Take Miles’ “KOB”, most of those modal tunes are actually even simpler harmonically than many Blues tunes. I would bet BB could have played some relatively simple, but very tasty solos over some of those tunes. The tasty part? THAT’S the difficult part. There’s good reason why Jazz players often judge another player’s true mettle based on whether that other player can play the Blues.
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...and fast blues, medium tempo blues and everything in between. Many of those tunes on those Blue Notes are Blues tunes played at faster (Jazzier?) tempos. Good call on Ayler’s recordings. Btw, probably the most prolific and most important Jazz record label, and what did they choose for a name? 😎
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Sorry, again with respect, some of you guys are painting with way too broad a brush; or, should I say narrow? Think of it this way:
If “the Blues and Jazz are two completely different genres”, how does one then describe how different the Blues (or Jazz) is compared to, say, European Classical? That they are MORE completely different? THOSE are two completely (!) different genres with entirely different histories, characteristics and aesthetics. The Blues and Jazz are far from “completely” different. The truth is that the Blues is an essential ingredient of Jazz and they share much more than just ethnicity. If you understand the history of each it becomes obvious. To borrow a line used often by someone I know (and you know who you are) “No Blues, no Jazz”.
I’ve always liked food analogies when discussing music. The Blues is to Jazz what Marinara sauce is to Pizza. Way different, right? However, obviously coming from the same place and you can’t have one without the other. Try incorporating tomato sauce in Japanese cuisine; won’t work. THAT’S completely different. Completely different aesthetics.
Not sure what anyone here means when they say the two get “clumped together“. Is it that Blues tunes sometimes get described as being Jazz; or vice versa? Is it that, for some, discussing one leads to discussing the other; or vice versa? Why not? They are father and child.
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“Difficult” is not an easy thing to define; it’s all more complicated and subtle than that. The best Jazz players are not always the best Blues players. In fact, they seldom are. What that does that tell you about “difficulty”? |
I’m actually confused about what exactly the issue is. First it seemed that your objection was to the way some blur the lines when naming the various genres. Not sure how that has anything to do with liking or not liking certain artists or certain genres. Why get hung up with strict definitions? I don’t understand comments like “I don’t consider Paul Desmond blues”. Desmond was a lot of things. He played, at various times, West Coast, Cool, Swing, Ballads and, yes, even Blues sometimes. |
With respect, I think some of you are missing the point. If you listen to the best Jazz radio stations (WBGO, Newark, NJ for example) they play a great deal of Blues. I’m not sure what exactly the OP means by “some internet sites” being offenders, but Blues and Jazz are intertwined both historically and stylistically; in a way, inseparable and, yes, overlapping. I can’t speak to what “sites” the OP refers to, or whether their motivation is commercial interests, but I can tell you that there are many very musically legitimate reasons for “clumping” them together.
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Couldn’t agree more, edcyn. The two things can live side by side. |
Overlap:
Anyone who doesn’t understand that had there been no blues there would be no Jazz, well....... |
I have to assume that twoleftears is being sarcastic. The overlap between the two genres is huge and very important. |
