I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Czarivey, I think you may be mistaken. Bob Mintzer never played with Weather Report. He played bass clarinet (as well as saxophone and EWI) with The Yellow Jackets and he did play in Jaco Pastorious' band; Jaco was a member of Weather Report.
Mintzer is, without a doubt, one of the most talented modern jazz musicians. Great composer, arranger, author and fabulous instrumentalist. I posted some of is work here quite a while back and he was unfortunately deemed a "noise maker" by the jazz police. He is, after Michael Brecker, perhaps the best of the post-Coltrane style tenor players. Schubert, you made a very astute and interesting observation: Mintzer has not only studied Classical music extensively, but Classical definitely informs his writing (and his playing). Among many other things, he composed a work for saxophone quartet and symphony orchestra premiered by a quartet that I was a member of and a major orchestra. He's quite a talent.
The great unwashed demanded my return. Folks demonstrating outside my house last night. Shouting and chanting Things like, "The Frogman is out of control", or words to that effect.
As Chief of Jazz Police for Central Texas, I could not ignore them.
When I read your post about butchering 'standards', I just happen to be listening to Masekela's CD 'Uptownship'. I love the guy, but, he should have left, 'If you don't know me by now' and 'ooo, baby, baby' to Melvin and the Blue Notes and Smokey Robinson.
Was watching a military documentary a few nights ago. It was about the 900+ day siege of Leiningrad. It said that shostakovich was there, and wrote his 7th symphony "Leningrad", during the siege. Turns out that is in dispute, but, I found this while searching for a well reviewed performance of his 7th.
Rok, I heard the classical, but I'm still waiting on the "jazz". As far as "dem dancing shoes"; I looked through my encyclopedia of dance steps, but I couldn't find anything to fit that music. I think that maybe the "Futterwacken" might be appropriate, but I don't know for sure, I think I'll ask Alice.
Been reading through this thread. A whole lotta passion goin' on. My first vinyl jazz purchase was the Buddy Rich "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" recording back when I was in Junior College. Nixon was president. My first system was a Heath AJ14 FM tuner, a Dyna SCA-35 tube integrated amp, a Garrard Type A turntable with a Shure M3D cartridge and a pair of KLH Model 32 loudspeakers.
I've upgraded since... My rig is up as a virtual system here if you want to look it up.
I've got more Jazz Messenger albums than I care to think about. Dig the West Coast stuff as well as the hard bop and post bop. My 10" Miles LP with "Godchild" still swings.
But I'd like to get y'all hip to a few names I haven't seen here. The first is Catherine Russell, a vocalist I first heard interviewed by Terry Gross on the NPR Fresh Air program. Her father was Luis Russell, who was the musical director and pianist for Louis Armstrong. Her mother was Carline Ray, who played with the International Sweethearts of Rhythm. So she's got some pedigree. She spent a lot of years doing backup work on Motown stuff, but finally got started with a solo career a few years ago, much of it harkening back to the music of her family's era. She gets the best sidemen out of New York and really brings to life old standards like "Darktown Strutter's Ball", "Struttin' With Some BBQ", and "I'm Checkin' Out, Goombye!" Listen to this youtube of her doing "Whatcha Gonna Do When There Ain't No Swing?"
The last vocalist I want to present is something of a celebrity in the San Francisco area. Her name is Wesla Whitfield. She might tell you she's more of a cabaret singer than jazz, but she TELLS a story with what she does. Unlike many, she's even better live, but catching her live will be difficult for many of you, so her recordings will have to do. Check out this version of "Over the Rainbow".
Occasionally someone will post a musician who they think is really hot stuff, and when others disagree, they can't understand why. When I say others I'm including some other top jazz musicians. "But he can really blow the trombone", or sax, or whatever. There can be no doubt, that he got an A+ from whatever musical school he went to, and if he's playing a standard, or written music, he sounds fine; but when he's required to improvise, he comes up with every "cliche" in the jazz book. Since I've heard this 101 times, I'm not impressed; personally, I would rather hear someone with more soul, and less school.
A musician who has not been to juilliard, but has jazz "soul", can sound ever so much better than the highly trained and schooled jazz musician. The "people" define who is and who is not a good jazz musician, not some "musical board of education".
Originality ranks very high with my personal taste; that's why I like musicians and music that might not be the most popular. I've got worn out records of this artist, and just the other day, I decided to replace them with CD's. His CD's average $17, and he's got one that cost's $24. There must be a good demand and scarcity.
Leon Thomas is the artist: Thomas died of heart failure on May 8, 1999. He was largely forgotten until a resurgence of interest in soul jazz. Several of his tracks have been sampled in hip-hop and downtempo records.
***** her mother was Carline Ray, who played with the International Sweethearts of Rhythm. So she's got some pedigree. ******
Indeed she does. I posted the Sweethearts of Rhythm a while back. Seems like years ago. :) I have an original Publicity Poster from their heyday. Signed by most of the members. My family knew several of the women in the band. I treasure that poster.
Be careful guys , the automated A’gon Dispute process wipes out bad feedback of crooks which are ever increasing on here and its no accident. Out a grand in last month from two from two hustlers who listed one thing and sent another useless one , Good Luck to you all, this is my last post on here .
*****
"Whatcha Gonna Do When There Ain't No Swing?*****
I have been asking this very same question, to my fellow posters, since this thread started.
Gal Costa: The most unique and recognizable music on the planet. I don't know if it's the rhythm or the language. But you know almost instantly it's Brazilian.
Wesla Whitfield: Great performance. Unaffected voice. Sad and Courageous story.
O-10, I don't understand what your constant beef against higher education is? Considering that only recently there was a heated disagreement about this very subject, and one that snowballed and ultimately led to Rok "leaving" the thread, I can only assume that you either have an extremely short memory or are simply interested in being provocative and stirring the pot. I suppose it would be simpler (not easier) to just roll my eyeballs and say "there he goes again with his anti-Juilliard cliche", but as I have said before, I think that a thread like this has a responsibility to be factual and not mislead. Your premise is in error; or, at the very least, very incomplete and shows a lack of understanding of the place and role of an institution like Juilliard in the music world as a whole. We are all entitled to our opinions, but some explanations are in order. For anyone interested here are some facts:
First of all, Juilliard is not considered a top jazz school like Berklee, North Texas, U of M and others. While Juilliard has a fine jazz program, it is a very young program and the school continues to be primarily a Classical music school. Many top and well known jazz players attended Juilliard, but they didn't necessarily attend the school to "learn to play jazz". They attended to learn things like advanced counterpoint, composition, orchestration and pedagogy in order to be better-rounded and more complete musicians. Of course, attending Juilliard does not guarantee that the student will become a great and individualistic jazz player; and, of course there are many great players that never attended Juilliard or any other music school. To say that attending Juilliard will guarantee being a good jazz player with good "jazz soul" is no more absurd than to say that learning "in the street" without a more formal education will guarantee that the player will be a good jazz player. There are far more really rotten jazz players that never attended a music school than there are rotten jazz players that did. The main problem with your premise is the implication that NOT attending a school will be more likely to guarantee having "soul"; an absurd implication.
So, you have heard examples of your premise "101" times. How about some examples of players that you have heard that have attended Juilliard that you don't consider to be good jazz players? Who are you referring to? Otherwise, how do you know? And when you provide a couple of examples I would be glad to provide some examples of "street" jazz musicians who are simply not very good; and I will detail my reasons for feeling that way.
Thanks for the Leon Thomas clip. Greta stuff; been a fan for a long time. What did you think of "The Peacocks"?
Frogman, my beef is not with higher education, but with musicians who lean on higher education when they play jazz; believe me, it comes through. I do not have a short memory, it's you who are stirring the pot. Yes, it would have been much simpler if you had just rolled your eyes, but you didn't.
My statement was not "anti Juilliard", and you are doing a good job of clarifying it for me. "Juilliard is not considered a top jazz school"; there other schools better for musicians who intend to play jazz. Juilliard is "primarily a Classical music school" Many top and well known jazz players attended Juilliard, but they didn't necessarily attend the school to "learn to play jazz". They attended to learn things like advanced counterpoint, composition, orchestration and pedagogy in order to be better-rounded and more complete musicians. Of course, attending Juilliard does not guarantee that the student will become a great and individualistic jazz player; that's wonderful.To say that attending Juilliard will guarantee being a good jazz player with good "jazz soul" is no more absurd than to say that learning "in the street" without a more formal education will guarantee that the player will be a good jazz player. There are far more really rotten jazz players that never attended a music school than there are rotten jazz players that did. The main problem with your premise is the implication that NOT attending a school will be more likely to guarantee having "soul"; an absurd implication.
There is so much I don't have to write because you have written it for me; it must be the "straw man" that disagrees with you because I certainly don't. The second paragraph is mostly what you have written that I agree with. That's the "straw man's" premise that not attending a music school will more likely guarantee having "soul". That is a most absurd implication; but that's the "straw man's" implication, not mine. Leon Thomas studied music at Tennessee State University.
No I have not heard examples of my premise 101 times, but I have heard examples of musicians playing jazz "cliches" 101 times, and they sound "stereotypical" to my ears. Every last one of the jazz players who attended Juilliard that I know of are "good" jazz players; just not all of them are "great" jazz players. I will not provide any examples of anything because they would most certainly be "misinterpreted" the same way you misinterpreted almost every thing I say. I don't know any "street musicians", but I'm sure I would agree with whether you said they were good or bad.
"The Peacocks"; I didn't like the cut you presented, but since Getz is one of my favorite musicians, and I have many of his albums, I might have liked "Skylark" on that same LP. You and I can like the very same LP, but will prefer different cuts. I hope this answers every thing in your post.
Learsfool, I hope you're reading this, because it will save me from responding to your post.
O-10, who? Who?! Examples please. Since you can't provide any I will assume that you're making this stuff up. I guess, then, that Phil Woods is not a great jazz player; news to me. Sorry, O-10, no straw men; simply going by what you write. I think that this business of the superiority of the "street player" is the worst cliche of all; and really, if one considers that literally only a handful of well known jazz players attended Juilliard, does this issue deserve for you to keep bringing it up in an attempt to somehow cast a negative light on an institution that does so much good work? Talk about straw man!
Sorry, O-10, when it comes to this stuff you simply don't know what you're talking about. In the meantime, if you're interested in discussing Johnny Hodges' style and sound so you can identify him when you hear him I would be glad to; I have lots of examples. Rolling my eyeballs now.
Assuming my usual role as peacemaker, is it possible that you guys are at odds over what is Authentic / Authenticity, and what is not.
Think, Woody Guthrie vs Peter Paul & Mary.
One came from a certain time and place, and spoke for the people who lived during that time and place. He was one of them. He, and his music, were Authentic.
I liked them both. But I knew the real deal.
Cheers
BTW, I think 'Juilliard' is used in this discussion to represent a certain school of thought. We all know North Texas is the better place. :)
Honest question, O-10; and for the sake of, hopefully, interesting discussion. What was it about "The Peacocks" that you didn't like? From my vantage point it is a beautifully evocative and impressionistic melody that showcases Getz's highly expressive abilities. And that sound! To add to the expressiveness is Getz's brilliant use of the "clacking" of the keys of the saxophone to, in case anyone didn't catch it, mimick the fluttering of peacock wings. No multiple choruses of improvisation and, in keeping with your premise of singers not butchering a tune, just "singing" the melody. Was it detective Mike Hammer that used to say "the facts, mam; just the facts (of a melody)"? Pure artistry, imo.
Interesting role reversal here; love it. It was O-10 who would take on the role of peacekeeper when you and I would lock horns. Regardless, peace is good! So, thanks.
However, re "the real deal": NO WAY! Of course, some artists resonate to any one of us as being the real deal. The point of contention is whether the "street" musician has a leg up on some sort of "authenticity". Sure he can; in some cases. That musician can also be authentically bad. It all needs to be looked at on a case by case basis. If it isn't obvious by now that generalities of that kind are fool's folly, then it never will be to some. Times change, the street changes. Are we comparing the aesthetic values of musicians and music from sixty years ago when a kid wasn't even able to major on saxophone, never mind jazz, to those of the present. It always comes back to whether we are open to the music of the present or not. Sorry guys, but your scope is simply way too narrow. It may be one's opinion but it is not rooted in reality. What was that great quote from Alex? Will get back to you with that.
I have to keep telling myself that my God has a plan. There is a purpose to all of this. I have faith.
1. Look up the meaning of 'Authentic'. Does not speak to good or bad. Does speak to the 'real' deal.
2. Human beings would not be able to converse if they were not allowed to use "generalities". Demanding minute exact details is a good tactic to score points in a discussion, but it's evasive and bogus.
3. Look up Woody, and then look up PP&M. Woody is Authentic. Whether you like him or not, is not the point. 'Resonate' sounds good but has nothing to do with the question.
jafant and alexatpos, since you are both such nice guys I’ll make one last post.
A guy in Podunk, Maine listed a Cary-AES A-25 MK II amp for $800 bucks, I bought it . When I received it it was not that but a decade older and 50% less powerful plain A-25 . I emailed A’gon support with the facts, no reply , then left the hustler with negative feedback, That got immediate reply from A’gon in the form of their automated "Dispute" form . As soon as i wrote the facts and sent it all it did was to remove the crooks negative . In short the people who run this site are a bit bent to say the least .Same thing happened last month with an IC that seller said I should have asked him if it was not RCA but XLR . Just getting on here makes me feel like I’m entering a sleezy whorehouse so I'll "just walk on bye " . God Bless
Rok, that you invoke "your God" speaks volumes about your sense of grandiosity. I said it early on in the thread, what is missing in many of these discussions is a bit of humility; humility that acknowledges the fact that there is much to learn. One of the things that I find particularly humorous is that you would think that I am demanding minute details; and, along the same lines, O-10's comment a while back: "if you want to learn everything there is to learn about music get an encyclopedia". Both humorous because, not only are these "minute details" that I am supposedly demanding, in fact, very general and not the least bit comprehensive, but the notion that an encyclopedia (any encyclopedia) contains anything but a fraction of just how much there is to learn about music is silly. Re "authenticity" and "good/bad", the fact is that you and I are saying very similar things.
O-10, I have misinterpreted nothing about what you wrote. I suggest that a big part of the problem is that there simply is not enough clarity in what you sometimes write and it might be good if you step back and consider what you wrote before clicking on the "Post" tab. Example: first you refer to these Juilliard musicians as "playing only cliches" and not possessing "soul". Then later you state that they are "good jazz players, just not great players". Which is it? A jazz player who plays only cliches and has no soul cannot be a good jazz player by any standard; and obviously not a great one.
Would still like to know what it was about "The Peacocks" that you didn't like? Personally, I would much rather discuss music than the "politics" of it. Oh yeah, who is it that brings "politics" to this? 😉
I am not going to turn this thread into another "Thrilla in Manilla", or "The Brawl of The Audiophiles". If anyone likes that sort of thing, I suggest they start another rap thread; or better yet, go to the projects in "Nawlins". If you don't want to look at what's "REAL in RAP", I suggest you by pass this link.
Now I'm returning to our regular programing. We have already covered the very best jazz musicians who ever lived, we have also covered the best "jazz albums"; now, with some help, I'm going to cover the lesser known artists; some who might have been as good as the best.
Alex brought this musician to my attention, they call him "South Side Soul", and there is a very good reason for that. I have often written about the "South Side" of Chicago when I was a teenager; It was a magnificent place in many parts. The Pershing lounge was in the small part I lived in with my cousin. This part contained every ethnicity under the Sun with food to match those ethnicities. I can still remember the Pizza; while I've eaten a lot of pizza from a lot of places since that time, I've never had any pizza that good since I left the South Side.
"South Side Soul" is Mr. John Wright's nick name; he earned it from making an album by the same name. He didn't have the skills of the top tier jazz musicians, but he produced an album that made you visualize a small part of Chicago; to me, that's magic, especially when this part of Chicago existed only for a small period of time. This is the only thing those people who lived there have to cling to, that verifies the fact that it ever existed; and they have a day every year to honor "South Side Soul", Mr. Wrights nick name.
I would like to, with your help, to continue this new direction into lesser known jazz musicians; however, if you have something by one of the "top tier" jazz musicians that you would like to bring to our attention, that's fine.
*****
We have already covered the very best jazz musicians who ever lived, we have also covered the best "jazz albums"; now, with some help, I'm going to cover the lesser known artists; some who might have been as good as the best. *****
We have not even talked about all the CDs that I own, let along the entire genre.
The lesser known, as The Frogman said, are generally lesser known for a good reason. Are you sure you are not confusing lesser known with local?
Rok, since when did Frogman become the Bible; "Frogman said the lesser known are lesser known for a good reason". While that statement in it self is gospel truth, there is the inference that they are not as good. Alex presented a guy on trumpet that according to what I heard was as good as anybody I've ever heard. I never heard of the guy because he had a drug problem and had very, very little recorded. (I never use two "very's" in the same sentence, but this time it was called for). Maybe the guy didn't live long enough, that's another good reason. Maybe his best music wasn't even recorded. In all cases, there is a good reason why the lesser known are lesser known, but the fact that they are not as good, may not be one of them.
Alex, you've done a marvelous job of bringing lesser known players to my attention, please continue.
The Gospel According to The Frogman? King Frogman Version?
BTW, you and The Frogman have this bad habit of reading things that aren't there. No one would argue with anything you said in your post. Saint Frogman just said, there is usually a good reason they are lesser known. You just listed a lot of them. Most folks on here speak good English. They are capable of saying exactly what they mean.
Rok, the rest of the world must be classical musicians in jazz clothing. Why don't we ask an honest to goodness Classical musician, like Learsfool, what he thinks, and we will be able to ascertain with certainty, as to why they have gone "Ga Ga" over Keith Jarret.
I must admit he sounds better when I put on my smoking jacket and light a pipe.
(if only he would quit making those God-awful sounds)
You would be surprised, or maybe not, at the number of current Jazz guys that started off in Classical. I wonder why they change? Maybe they think it's easier. Maybe Wynton is correct.
No, no! It's not me that invokes God. Sorry, couldn't resist 😇
Bolton, "good as the best"? Good as Clifford, Miles, Hubbard et al? Not a chance in hell. Oops, did it again....well, maybe that was ok 😈
In very very rare cases are these guys as good as the best. I think we are inadvertently touching upon the problem here; at least a big part of it. Did someone say narrow scope?
C'mon Rok, stick to your guns, I'm sure O-10 will eventually forgive you.
Rok, I'm on a search for Leon on CD, and I see that he's available under Pharoah Sanders. He's cheaper going that route than just looking for Leon. If you plan on adding him to your collection, the 2fer is cheaper. A little help from my friend wouldn't hurt. I'll get back after my search.
Much Thanks! Schubert- for telling your story. It is imperative that we share all experiences here, positive & negative, for the rest of us. Sadly, eBay is just as bad, as every moron and I do mean moron, it is laden w/ really poor sellers.
Schubert, hope you would not mind me giving you an advice, but if you can calm down and join later, I personally would be glad to hear (read) from you again. If not for anything else, than for a sake of contributing to such a diverse companionship here. You must admit that there are some good words and music shared and your posts were for sure appriciated.
Frogman, I hope you don't think I said I didn't like "The Peacocks" simply because you posted it. You're getting kinda weird lately. If you think that, it's what I mean by "kinda weird".
The Peacocks was dreary, like a foggy, drizzly, rainy day, and I didn't like it. Does that explanation pass muster?
A lot of them on Amazon. They are pretty proud of them, i.e. they are very expensive. You did notice he is dressed like Sinbad, and is also from St Louis. Remember Miles?
Well, gee, O-10, thank you for the kind words. Now, what is it they say? Oh, yes: "the smeller's the feller" 😝 But a sincere thank you for the explanation. Personally, I love rainy, foggy days; looking through my window (stereo) that is.
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