Jazz for aficionados
It's as if someone else, "not me" posted my post. I say that because I'm learning as much about it, as if someone else posted it. As I stated, the title of the song was all that was relevant, I didn't even know it was "Charlie Ventura" playing. You must realize, that was a long time ago when I was in the 10th grade. Today, I discovered Charlie Ventura; he was an amazing musician. Check him on "Boptura"; the man is "Bird" in disguise, that cat can bop. It was just too short. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miC0fSPwbWs His sax also had a beautiful smooth tone on "Yesterdays". I'm just getting re-acquainted with Charlie, I like his style. Enjoy the music. |
O-10: Watched Disc #1 of the Ken Burn's series "JAZZ" today. Good refresher. I have not seen it in a while. I am sure all Jazz fans have this set. It's good to watch it every now then. Watching it will, like the music itself, take you through an entire range of emotions, and remind you of what it's suppose to be. Wynton gave brilliant commentary throughout. Intersting fact: Adam Clayton Powell Sr, railing against Jazz from the pulpit of Abyssinian Baptist Church in NYC. Can you imagine that? Check it out. |
I missed this recording somehow. I will fix that tomorrow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcUvkO4A5Vo |
O-10, Charlie Ventura was indeed an amazing musician; one of the many who have almost been forgotten. **** "East of Suez" sounded like some place I might want to go, it sounded exotic and I liked the music.**** Notice the resemblance to "A Night In Tunisia"; a tune that has a similar exotic flavor and was written five years earlier. Thanks for the clip. |
Life is funny sometime, and you guys are living it with me in real time. I said I remembered "East of Suez", not Charlie Ventura, because I don't. Right now I'm exploring "You tube" and what's available for purchase. Are any of you guys familiar with Charlie? Share with us what you know. Frogman, that's an interesting comparison between "East of Suez" and "Night in Tunisia"; one is well known, while the other is almost unknown. Enjoy the music. |
Acman, I find it hard to believe this is a current album as well as he's playing. I've seen him live many times, good clean living has really paid off; while the other musicians might fraternize after the set, Ahmad was on his way home; that was when he was in Chicago. "Blue Moon" is on order. Enjoy the music. |
****Frogman, that's an interesting comparison between "East of Suez" and "Night in Tunisia"; one is well known, while the other is almost unknown.**** Check out the solo "break" by Kai Winding (trombone) at 1:01 on "East Of Suez". He quotes part of the melody of "Night In Tunisia", the seven note melodic fragment at the end of the repeated eight measure first phrase of NIT. Obviously, that comparison was made a long time ago. That same little melodic fragment is first heard at :25 in the clip below. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KxibMBV3nFo Further proof that the evolution of jazz is linear; the past influences the present and future. |
****Frogman, that's an interesting comparison between "East of Suez" and "Night in Tunisia"; one is well known, while the other is almost unknown.**** Check out the solo "break" by Kai Winding (trombone) at 1:01 on "East Of Suez". https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PnrYk1pq12I He quotes part of the melody of "Night In Tunisia"; the seven note melodic fragment at the end of the repeated eight measure first phrase of NIT. Obviously, that same comparison was made a long time ago. That same little melodic fragment is first heard at :25 in the clip below. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KxibMBV3nFo Further proof that the evolution of jazz is linear; the past influences the present and future. |
Only musicians would notice something like that musical similarity between "Night in Tunisia" and "East of Suez", but not many people other than musicians are familiar with "East of Suez". That was when Miles had something so special, that not even he knew what it was, but "Bird" heard it. Right now, that ranks as the number 1 "Night in Tunisia" for me. Enjoy the music. |
Rok, aficionados don't intellectualize the music we call jazz. Before "you tube" we were limited to words, which are a horrible way to communicate music. Now we can communicate with music, it makes statements that words can not be found to express. Maybe that's why Miles was so horrible with words, they failed to communicate anything he was trying to say. Music is like a gigantic mirror of the times in which it was created; notice how music of the 40's seems to have some kind of common denominator that I can not put into words; and so it is with the 50's and 60's, those decades also have some kind of "common denominator". When someone posts a statement with music, I can understand what they're saying much better than with just words. "You tube" has blessed us with a quality of sound, higher than we ever had, back in the day. For example; I'm sure I heard Miles and "Bird" on "Night in Tunisia" before, but I never heard it without distortion, pops, clicks, and record noise almost as loud as the music. Musicians have a sound as distinctive as the human voice, and I can't think of anything more distinctive than that. If you were in a crowded room with everyone talking, you would instantly recognize an old friends voice, even if you didn't see his face; that's what I mean about hearing this persons unique sound, not his style, but his musical voice that makes him different from any other musician before or after; now, we can hear things we never heard before. Being an "aficionado" is about listening to the music. One of the most amazing people in jazz, never played any kind of instrument, she never wrote or talked about herself, but there is one statement she made that rings in my mind, that's when she told her talkative niece, "Listen to the music Hanna"; that's what being an "aficionado" is all about, listening and hearing. We hear things musicians say that can never be put into words, and others don't hear. Enjoy the music. |
O-10: I am not sure if your post was meant to inform or admonish. If the former, I agree with virtually all of what you said. If the latter, no one has ever accused me of anything even remotely intellectual in nature! :) I agree that music and muscians can say things beyond words. THEY, can speak to us in that way, but, I am not sure WE can communicate with each other via youtube clips. Youtube is a great way to be exposed to new music, I just have this thing about submitting clips of Jazz music that I don't own. Just me. Of course Jazz, and all music is a reflection of the times in which it was written, Jazz seemed to have started off happy, joyful, sensual, and then got angry / political / message laden, and finally cerebral. 'Store Bought' is the term I use for the cerebral stuff. It's not, happy, angry, political, and it has no message. I guess it's whatever the listner wants it to be. ****We hear things musicians say that can never be put into words, and others don't hear.**** True! That's why I seldom try. I just like it, or not. I remember reading articles about Classical music when I first got started. Writers saying what each movement of LvB's 6th sym meant. The 6th was my first favorite. What they wrote was interesting and to my puny brain quite profound. Then I listened to thed 6th, and discovered that their attempts were pitifully inadequate. Verbal Description is Futile! As the borg might say. Thanks for your post. Cheers |
O-10: ****Maybe that's why Miles was so horrible with words, they failed to communicate anything he was trying to say. **** This is spot on. Ever hear Dizzy talking about his music? The guy sounded as if he was from another place. Which he was! ****Being an "aficionado" is about listening to the music*** This may be true, but once you hear the magic you just have to tell somebody!!! You can't just keep it to yourself. Hence all the traffic on this thread. Cheers ; |
Rok, my post was meant to inform, and criticize Ken Burns in regard to us. While programs like Ken Burns are excellent for many others, I feel we are far too advanced for those types of programs; our discussions should be more into the "voices" of the different musicians. Miles for example had a trumpet "voice" that was different from any trumpet before him. I also feel that when any of us find a musician we like, but are unfamiliar with, that we should all see what else that musician has to offer in order to increase our collection, and use "You tube" to do it; this is what they want you to do. The more exposure, the better the chances are for one of us to buy that artist's CD. I've bought a number of CD's based on your submission, acman3's post, or Frogman's recommendation on "You tube"; so it's a win win for "You tube" and the artist, that's what they are there for. Initially artists objected to their material on "you tube" without their permission, but after discovering that this increased exposure, increased their bottom line, they no longer objected; as a matter of fact, I've seen stuff that was removed come back on "you tube". Charlie Ventura is apparently new to all of us, and I like his "musical voice". Our chances are better for finding something else by him when we go on a combined search on you tube. Since Frogman has yet to respond, he may know of something else by Charlie. There is no better way to purchase new music than "like it or not", and our chances of finding new music we like have increased exponentially because we've been communicating on this thread for so long, that we should almost have a "mind meld". Listening, hearing, and sharing what you heard with us, all go together; from now on, say it with a musical post, and then I'll know what you're talking about. Enjoy the music. |
O-10: *****Rok, my post was meant to inform, and criticize Ken Burns in regard to us. While programs like Ken Burns are excellent for many others, I feel we are far too advanced for those types of programs****** I disagree. I liked it for it's historical value. Just like Nica's book. Burns is often criticized, mostly by folks that feel their favorite players / tunes were omitted, or given short riff. You can, could've / should've anything to death. It was a brilliant series. Also a gift from my son. I have a few of the CDs. Guys like Sidney Bechet, I felt the sound quality would be the best avaliable for the old stuff. I do realize that all the other folks on this thread are far more 'advanced' than I am, concerning Jazz. However, they are not so advanced, as to be able to dismiss one of the premier film makers of this era. Burns did a great service to Jazz and Jazz fans. The Jazz scene is not exactly running over with supportive media the quality of Burns' documentary. He best work is probably THE CIVIL WAR. I listen to that soundtrack on CD often. He is a relative of the Poet, Robert Burns. I served with an Officer named Burns in Germany, who was also a decendant of Robert Burns. The similarity was stunning. Cheers |
O-10: ****Charlie Ventura is apparently new to all of us, and I like his "musical voice". Our chances are better for finding something else by him when we go on a combined search on you tube.***** Following your orders, I did search him out and listened to a lot of his stuff. It was all Ok. Just didn't grab my attention. Besides all the stuff seemed to be taken directly from an LP. Lots of clicks and pops. The recordings did show the age in which they were recorded. Sounded muffled. Like the juke box playing in a 1940's film-noir, grade B movie. Reminded me of my old Dual 1229Q. Where is my Burwen? :) I don't understand why everyone is going Gaga over Ventura, and no one had anything good to say about Andy Bey and the Sisters. A huge step up, in my, less advanced opinion. Cheers |
*****Listening, hearing, and sharing what you heard with us, all go together; from now on, say it with a musical post, and then I'll know what you're talking about******* Good point. I don't listen to just Jazz. This is my latest listen. Don't listen to this one late at night when all alone. Another of the Delta Greats. Lyon Mississippi. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdgrQoZHnNY Cheers |
Rok, I appreciate your honesty; if ken Burns was a gift from my son, I would cherish it to death. Nica's book is not in the same category. "Charlie Ventura": he answered many of our personal questions in regard to how advanced we are in "Modern Jazz". Frogman will have to answer your question in regard to Charlie compared to Andy Bey and the Sisters, he has a way with words. While Delta Blues is not, nor ever has been "my Thing", I'll give "Son House" a listen. Music is a cultural, social, and economic expression; that is most apparent when you examine the music on this forum. I'm the city, primarily St. Louis and Chicago; a Chicago that no longer exists, but since I lived it, it still exists in my memory. I just realized how much my last post was a personal expression, as opposed to one that speaks for others who're participating in this thread, because "advanced" was in reference to modern jazz exclusively. Jazz from a historical point of view, is irrelevant to me at this stage. My primary objective is to increase my collection, and that's become rather difficult. Enjoy the music. |
O-10: ***** Jazz from a historical point of view, is irrelevant to me at this stage. My primary objective is to increase my collection, and that's become rather difficult.***** I am just the opposite. I cannot seperate the music from the history surrounding it. I always marveled at the British Bands trying to sing the Blues. They didn't have a clue. It wasn't their culture. I guess some music travels, and some does not. I think part of the reason I don't care for the latest Jazz, is because I don't relate to the players. And that applies to all genres. I also have an age bias. Musicians younger than I am, I have a problem accepting them. Gladys and Aretha can school me, but Beyonce is just mouthing words. :) Classical is excepted, because the players aren't doing the talking, the composer is. I aim to increase my collection also, but by finding gems I missed. When I think that so many of my adult years were spent outside of the country, I missed a lot. The Bey Sisters being a prime example. Too bad they only made two albums. I think I will have an easier time finding gems than you will finding good new stuff. :( BTW, I took your use of the word 'advanced' to mean the degree to which folks on this thread appreciated and understood Jazz. In that sense, I defer to you all. I am still a rookie. Cheers |
****I don't understand why everyone is going Gaga over Ventura, and no one had anything good to say about Andy Bey and the Sisters. A huge step up, in my, less advanced opinion.**** **** Frogman will have to answer your question in regard to Charlie compared to Andy Bey and the Sisters, he has a way with words.**** Well, that's a tough one. A way with words is no guarantee that the message will ring true to any given listener. As we have demonstrated many times here the easy and perhaps cynical answer is that "there is no accounting for taste", the better and more insightful answer is that the very things that make music so great are what makes one's reaction to it so personal. A comparison between Charlie Ventura and The Bey Sisters is particularly difficult because they are obviously two entirely different types of artists: one is an instrumentalist, the other a vocal group. The music of this instrumentalist has a much stronger improvisatory element than that of this vocal group. So, one could stop right there for an explanation of why a particular listener might prefer one over the other. I don't think that is the case here since our discussions here have a generally fairly wide scope. For the most part and for me personally, as has been discussed previously, singers who scat are automatically held to a very high standard that is seldom met; that of instrumentalists. Charlie Ventura was a very fine swing player during a time when bebop was taking shape. He was steeped in the swing tradition and came to bebop peripherally and, one could say, after the fact. His playing always had an obvious element of the swing tradition in it even when "bopping". Some of the giants of bebop may have started as swing players, and were certainly influenced by swing, but went in the direction of bebop much sooner in their careers and with more decisiveness. When one listens to Charlie Parker or even Phil Woods it is not obvious at all what their "swing" influences were; so strong is their bebop language and style. I too like Ventura's voice and think he was a very good player; I particularly like his ballad playing on tenor, in part because I love that style of tenor playing in general. I would not, however, say that I am "gaga" over his playing. He was a player that is worthy of adding to one's collection and also a player that is important to the understanding of the evolution of the music from a historical perspective. He was only a few years younger than players like Bird and Miles, but in the context of the incredibly vibrant and quickly evolving jazz scene at the time, it should not be surprising how those few years can have a large effect on the stylistic development of a player. This is not unlike how my sister who is only five years older than I speaks perfect English, but with a heavy accent while I have no accent; this in spite of immigrating to America at the same time. She had spent more years steeped in the native language than I; and, being older, more resistant to the new language in spite of the same level of desire to assimilate. So, how does one compare two totally different kinds of artists as far as ultimate artistic value? Both Ventura and the Bey Sisters have merit, and I agree that, as O-10 says they "are a joyous sound". Personally, I would not make such a comparison and just as I am not "gaga" over Ventura, I don't understand why anyone would "go gaga" over the Beys; and certainly not a "huge step up" in artistic merit (in absolute terms) if the comparison must be made. I like their sound, but FOR ME that type of vocal ensemble singing requires a certain level of finesse in the areas of tightness, intonation and sophistication of the vocal arrangements that I just don't hear in their singing compared to groups like "Lambert, Hendricks and Ross" and certainly "The Manhattan Transfer". They are fun and clearly good entertainers, but in absolute terms, a little rough around the edges and rather simplistic as far as the arrangements. Perhaps that is precisely why their sound appeals so much to some. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sql9PvsuT10 |
O-10: As you might guess from these youtubes, I have been watching the "JAZZ" documentary again. :) I think we all need to be reminded, every so often, of what Jazz is supposed to be. These guys were greater than I ever imagined. Should be a requirement for all Jazz fans. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzcpUdBw7gs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5Hbh_-IRs8 Cheers |
You can't go wrong with Louis. Like sex, there is no bad Louis Armstrong. I once played some Hot 5, for a friend who knew little about Armstrong, and after about 5 seconds he said ," Oh Cartoon music". I still laugh over that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXHdqTVC3cA |
No new revelation here since this has been said many times by many aficionados, but if one was forced to pick ONE musician that, more than anyone else, exemplifies what jazz is about it would have to be Satchmo. The number one aspect of jazz which defines it most and seperates it from any other music form is its rhythmic feel. Louis Armstrong played with a rhythmic feel that has never been equalled in its decisiveness and lack of ambiguity while at the same time having that great sense of looseness and swagger that defines jazz; and, on top of it all, always able to put a smile on your face. Its almost like a great magic trick; "it's impossible but he's doing it". |
Acman3: *****I once played some Hot 5, for a friend who knew little about Armstrong, and after about 5 seconds he said ," Oh Cartoon music". I still laugh over that.***** On disc three, the critic Gary Giddins relates a story where he played a record of Louis playing 'West End Blues' for a music professor friend of his. He listen to it, then asked Giddins to play it again, he did. Then the Music professor said "that is the most perfect three minutes of music I have ever heard". Notice, he said perfect MUSIC, not JAZZ. Interesting. Cheers |
Rok, as I stated before, "Frogman has a way with words". He certainly expressed my thoughts in regard to both Charlie Ventura and the Beys. I believe you've sold the Beys as well as they can sold in this room. Acman, I never thought about it, but I do recall that music from looking at early cartoons; it's amazing how much jazz is on "cartoons", you can also find Chico Hamilton. Frogman, this is the first time anyone has put the music I love into a "musical perspective"; that makes it fresh and new. Although I've been around a lot of musicians, they never talked music from a musicians perspective. Enjoy the music. |
O-10: ***** I believe you've sold the Beys as well as they can sold in this room.***** The Bey's music speaks for itself. Does not need selling. But, as you pointed out, I speak French and all of you speak Spanish, so agreement is futile. Listen to it again. The very words used to state what the Sisters lack, are the exact words that could be used to describe their brilliance. Something is wrong. Maybe those wussy high-end speakers you people listen to, can't capture the essence of the Sisters. Is an upgrade in order? May I recommend POLK? Pops had Polks. I think. :) Speaking of French: Sidney Bechet, was involved in a gunfight in Paris back in the 1920's, as a result of an argument over chord changes. Wounded two. This was in the middle of Paris in broad daylight! That's when Jazz was Jazz!!! :) Who has that kind of passion these days? Cheers |
I had a pair of Polk LSI 15's in my living room around 2006 for a 3 day tryout. i choose to get Joseph Audio speakers, but I was only using an AV receiver with the Polk's. I thought the LSI was better than my old Polk SDA's, but I wanted a more transparent sound and moved on. By the time I decided on the Josephs I had a much better Krell integrated, so it's hard to say exactly what you are hearing. I think your love of the Bey Sisters has more to do with what you REALLY like, and what others in this case find OK. No big deal, just enjoy! |
At different times I'm able to hear different artists. Today is a good Brubeck day; I can hear him, Paul, and the rest of the crew as good as the day I bought them. The submissions by "Satch" sounded exceptionally well. Since I'm not a fan of the music from his era, that's unusual. I think it's primarily because of the cuts that were submitted. After all these years, I don't have much by him, but I can see, (or in this case"hear") that needs to be rectified. It's a very good day for "Don Cherry", this is what I'm listening to at the moment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGKk4goM2Qk No, this is not about any artist in particular, it's about how my ability to hear any given artist changes from day to day. Enjoy the music. |
****Then the Music professor said "that is the most perfect three minutes of music I have ever heard". Notice, he said perfect MUSIC, not JAZZ. Interesting.**** Interesting, indeed. Having known and spoken to more music professors than I can remember, I can say with confidence that this is a testament to the simple fact that they tend to listen to and consider music in a way that has no boundaries. They approach it with a sense of universality. At the core, the most fundamental values of music (dare I say it? the ....naah) , the most important components, are essentially the same for all genres. To refer to it as MUSIC instead of as JAZZ is the highest praise possible. The comment is also interesting because that comment is also sometimes attributed to Giddins himself; and, in fact, he has said as much without mention of "the professor". Additionally, the tune "West End Blues" is sometimes described, perhaps as a result of that anecdote, as having "perfect architecture". Bottom line, Louis Armstrong is the subject of all this; a testament to his greatness. |
More from Episode Three: The first Jazz scat. Armstrong says his music score fell off the stand so he just improvised. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksmGt2U-xTE Sad story of Bix Beiderbecke. Shows that segregation cut both ways. Had to jam with Louis behind locked doors. Artie Shaw had some interesting comments about the near absurdity(my word), of trying to get sounds from his head out of a piece of wood with holes drilled in it. "Rarely happened, but when it did, it was better than sex!" Might have been what the guys in Nica's book meant when they said "I wish I could play what's in my head" Could the instrument be the main obstacle in music? Dramatic shots of the Mississippi river flood in 1927. Down there it's called '27 highwater'. My mom loaded sandbags on the levee. Shows how much the instruments themselves have changed over the years. The trumpets seemed much longer in length. Some HUGE saxophones. A man could crawl in the bell. Cheers |
O-10: The CDs and Artist I sometimes have a urge to hear are: Oscar Peterson -- GIRL TALK esp like his version of 'on a clear day' contained on this CD. I paid a lot to get this one on CD. Awesome cover photo. Mingus -- OH YEAH Contains 'hog calling blues'. I have to hear that at least weekly. Wynton Marsalis -- MARSALIS & CLAPTON PLAY THE BLUES exquisite arrangments and playing. Esp on Clarinet and Trumpet. Wynton is not Armstrong, but hell, who is? But, he comes closer than anyone ever has. Anything by Morgan and Silver. I never have the urge to hear Miles or Trane. Interesting. Cheers |
Rok, you mentioned the flood but you didn't show any pictures. Here are some pictures and music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBfYmxrULlQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EV4xdgPIVo Enjoy the music. |
O-10: Great clips. A small portion of those scenes are in the JAZZ dvd. I remember the women in the boxcar. I knew I had heard that song before. Racked my puny brain and remembered. It's on a Aaron Neville CD, "Warm Hearts" I believe. This is the version of 'Louisiana 1927' that I have. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyfvnM4Grik Thanks for the clips. Cheers |
Rok, although I know what you mean in regard to Miles and Trane, here's something quite different from the standard Trane you might like, and even get in the mood for from time to time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmr33FfhnHY Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, that is definitely one of my favorite albums by "Trane", and here is one of my favorite cuts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m2HN2y0yV8 Enjoy the music. |
Here's someone we haven't touched on much, "Urbie Green", known as the “trombonist’s trombonist,” is one of the true greats of jazz, among the elite of the world’s trombone players. Urbie Green has toured with Woody Herman, Gene Krupa and Frankie Carle and has been cited numerous times in Down Beat magazine’s annual critics awards. Green has also established an extensive career as a free-lance trombonist for recording artists such as Count Basie, Frank Sinatra, Leonard Bernstein, Louis Armstrong and others. He has approximately 30 albums under his own name, appeared in the film version of The Benny Goodman Story and appears at major jazz festivals. Lately his solo career has taken him around the world three times in as many years. Urbie’s collaboration with Martin design engineers has led to innovations in the comfort of the hand brace and slide, an improved water hole with a curved key that empties easily in one turn rather than several shakes, and a goose neck that is chrome-plated to prevent players’ clothing from becoming marked by brass. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-Q30Zq3IHU Enjoy the music. |
In the sprit of Trane! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8LQoV-uUW0 |
