Jazz for aficionados

Love Hank's version, love these too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ex73GrSTlg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If77_P8v7iE

Cal Tjader Sextet with Stan Getz.
It's all great, but I'm particularlly fond of "Ginza Samba".
Everybody is at their peak and its very well recorded.
The CD on Amazon sounds good.
The Download at HDTracks sounds better. 

acman,

I have listened to JC's "Out Of Nowhere" the "full album" at least a hundred times. I own all of his recordings and that's one of my favorites.

I'm partial to Gene Ammons' version of "Angel Eyes" but Sonny Stitt's rendition is excellent as well.

Yesterday I watched the Showtime documentary on the tragic life of Heavyweight Champion Sonny Liston. After his 2nd controversial loss to Muhamad Ali he was dealing heroin in the seedy suburbs surrounding the Las Vegas strip.His supplier was the jazz trumpeter Red Rodney (among others).
Red Rodney was, unlike Liston, a user of heroin as well as a dealer. Red did a few prison stints for dealing and using.

Red Rodney, IMHO, is very underrated. He was a part of Charlie Parkers band at numerous times between 1945 - 54. Here is Red Rodney in Lee Konitz' band for the "Live At Laren" recording:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJxidEKin0o


Red Rodney on Charlie Parker:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z58VJmAMxA

Red Rodney with Dexter Gordon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qlYsxkpcN0

I'm sure most of the members here have seen the famous photo of Charlie Parker and Red Rodney sitting in a booth - The skinny red headed kid and his idol

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&id=0C0C4550103AA1ACE4C7879A7923ECB1D29D9B77&...

I have been listening to my Kenny Wheeler collection a lot lately. Especially his ECM sessions. Great music. Great engineering at the ECM studio = great sonics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p096UTjQgeI&t=87s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCDBFl6Yc2c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXkyRh3Ufpc

Wow! been searching around You Tube all morning and just found this gem with Charlie Parker and Lester Young playing a beautiful rendition of Embraceable You:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9cZF2dOZPM

And the best part is I found the CD of the complete session for a great price here:
https://www.discogs.com/Charlie-Parker-Jazz-At-The-Philharmonic-1949/release/1651575

Gene Ammons was my favorite before Hank, now I like the one I'm listening to at that time the best.

Pjw, heroin addicts couldn't take care of business enough to get the respect they deserved as artists; they were too smashed to play, or they needed a fix and couldn't play. They had to be able to buy the dope, but not use too much when they had an engagement; it was a horrible sight to see up close and personal.

Lester Young and Charley Parker, so nostalgic; when I hear them I think of incredibly better times; for the working man that is, the rich are doing better than ever, and that's a fact.

Alex, you posted Oscar Pettiford links that didn't work, maybe you could post some that work. In the meantime I'm going to post some;


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5EwGijmqKc


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6u8j1jnJso


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTTPCONUcPU

Today's Listen:

Kai Winding & J.J. Johnson  --  THE GREAT KAI & J.J.

If you have this CD/LP, and a microscope, please read the liner notes.   They were written by Dick Katz, but could just as well been written by our OP.  The first paragraph, which is long, is almost a verbatim account of the OP's position in his long tussle with The Frogman.   I couldn't stop laughing.    The music.

First, a little trombone goes a long way with me, but this is good stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8u54iLpZZU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7tRbqJQpr4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1M43TavE1s

Cheers

Hah! I love that stuff. And, I love the clips. I roomed with a trombone player in college and he played that record almost nonstop. But, that’s not the only thing I love about the post. I refer to how interesting it is that sometimes support for our particular point of view comes from unexpected sources. Dick Katz, who studied at the Peabody Conservatory, Manhattan School of Music AND Juilliard; and was a Jazz educator. Considering all the silly derision levied here upon the idea of scholarship and Jazz, an unexpected source indeed.

This is interesting for yet another reason re unexpected sources.  You may find this story interesting. This past August I was performing with the Philadelphia Orchestra at SPAC and on the same program was Wynton’s JLCO performing Wynton’s “Swing Symphony”. I am friends with a couple of the members of Wynton’s band and after the rehearsal one morning we went to lunch at a nearby restaurant. During the meal, after much talk about the music the conversation turned to, of all things, audio. One of the guys was interested in buying a sound system. I mentioned Audiogon as a place to get acquainted with what is out there and the forums being a good place to learn about putting together a system. Conversation about the forums led to....you guessed it, this thread. One of the topics that came up was the idea of....you guessed it, traditional vs. “new” Jazz. I mentioned some of the ongoing disagreements here on the subject. To a man, the view was that the feeling that only old Jazz is of any value or that many of the younger players today are not on the same level as players from the past is absurd. That not only is it absurd, but that the belief is one of the things that hurts Jazz’ viability today the most. Then the punchline: Wynton feels the same way! Wynton is a big supporter of the new generation of players and not just the players playing traditional Jazz. He also likes some of the non-traditional “new” Jazz very much. His views have changed over the years and he, for “political” reasons, needs to maintain and cultivate his public persona of the unwavering traditionalist.

I couldn’t stop laughing! Well, when I was alone.

I was going to bring this up here back then, but I had the good sense to not “stir the pot” unnecessarily. BTW, my invitation from a couple of years ago (!) stands. If you’re ever in NYC I would be glad to introduce you to some of these guys and probably Wynton as well.

The music:

https://youtu.be/JrypkiPgPxc

Frogman, I have never seen anyone who could get things as turned around as you.

Me and Rok both have been saying current musicians are better educated and are truly skilled musicians; but if you give them a blank music sheet they might as well throw it in the trash because they can not compose worth squat, and you can quote me on that.

Why is it when I ask about new music, somebody uses something like this as an example; hear how skilled those new musicians play Mingus's "old music".


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPfSD0vJi8Y


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6arveYAIb5s


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkXeMzRqkcY

Orpheus, hope these links will work, if not, it must be because of russians

'Manhattan jazz septete'
https://youtu.be/dlh_-ab4lsQ

https://youtu.be/EIIhYAZ-aPs

'Guitar and the wind' (Barry Galbraith)
 https://youtu.be/K6uv9vnaXcA
https://youtu.be/tH-O0GhyHsc
https://youtu.be/vrPtqDJHTkw
https://youtu.be/bwvGXQ69DOA

Here we go again SMH...………….  

Great Kenny Wheeler clips, pjw.  Thanks.  I’ve been a fan for quite some time.  Distinctive style and tone; very complimentary to Jarrett’s piano style.  

Great bebopper, Red Rodney.  My first exposure to him was when he co-led a quintet with the great Ira Sullivan.  Used to go hear them at the Vanguard years ago.  Ira is one of the true unsung heroes of Jazz.  Fantastic multi instrumentalist.  He is a local hero still residing in my old stomping grounds is South Florida.

https://youtu.be/sFHLhSIIzsQ

https://youtu.be/aQsEicb4x74

Questions to The Frogman:

Jazz rehearsals. How much of the individual solos played in the performance are played during rehearsals?

For Instance, did Kisor blow this solo during rehearsals?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnshBIuu97Q

Thanks

Btw,   the rhythm section is awesome on this song.

Cheers

Rok, first, some context:

Every arrangement of a tune has a structure that is adhered to. Within that structure there may be room for a predetermined number of solos by specific instruments. Sometimes the arranger is very specific about what the length of the solo should be and other times the arranger gives the designated soloist free reign to improvise as long as he wants, but this is done with the understanding that the soloist will improvise as long as he has something to say and not just to be indulgent and go on forever in a way that doesn’t fit the spirit of the tune or arrangement. That is basic ensemble protocol. All this is specified in the designated soloist’s part (sheet music). When it is a brand new composition and unfamiliar to the player(s), the chord changes are written in the part and the soloist follows that chord progression as spelled out in his written part. Sometimes, as is the case here, the tune is in a basic and very familiar twelve measure blues form. Any Jazz player worth his salt can improvise over a twelve bar blues in his sleep. This is the reason that sometimes you see players looking at the music while they improvise and other times they don’t.

Not quite sure I fully understand your question: “Did Kisor blow this solo during rehearsals?“

Do you mean, was it Kysor that improvised at this point in the tune, as designated by the arrangement, during rehearsals? Yes, undoubtedly. During rehearsals, the soloist gets to blow his solo (rehearse) just as he will during the performance. Obviously, since it will be an improvised solo, it will not be “this solo”; but it will be his solo at the same point in the arrangement. This is all a necessary part of the rehearsal process. The arrangement and its performance will be most effective musically if there is no doubt or hesitation during the transitions from, as in this case, instrumental soloist to vocal statement or soloist to soloist. Unless rehearsal time is running short (happens) the soloist will get to improvise as long as he will during the performance; but, again, only as long as is musically appropriate.

In this particular arrangement Kysor was given “free reign” to play as long as he needed; again, within reason. He plays six choruses. How do I know that he was given free reign as opposed to the length of his solo being dictated by the arranger? Notice what he does at precisely 4:29. He makes a quick gesture to his right with his horn. That’s a visual cue to the band that the next chorus he plays will be his last chorus.

This performance is interesting on a few counts and relates to the issue of “new” vs “old” Jazz and your clip is actually very timely. Traditional tune performed with an obviously traditional feel; and interesting that the opening statement is played by a different trumpet player (Kenny Rampton) than the trumpet player that improvises a solo later in the tune (Kysor). Both players sound fantastic. Rampton sounds fantastic playing in the more traditional, very inflected, plunger mute style. Rampton (a younger player) has a very modern harmonic concept. He plays very “outside” the very traditional harmony of the blues form. Very interesting and at times obtuse solo that is full of surprises and never telegraphs where he is going next. He plays his solo with a very advanced harmonic vocabulary that is clearly an extension of the vocabulary of great players like Miles and Woody Shaw. Those players didn’t and couldn’t play like Rampton. Obviously, not a criticism, just that Jazz was in a different place then. The listener may or may not like Rampton’s vocabulary because it is so different (“new”) from what is familiar (“old”) but Rampton clearly has his own voice. Killer solo which is on the same level, in every way that defines the spirit of Jazz, as many of the great solos by many of the great players from the past. “New” Jazz in the context of an “Old” setting. Great stuff.

Wynton was clearly digging it. And, btw, Wynton knows all of the above and much more. Did all that knowledge get in the way of his “digging it” (Katz/😉)? I seriously doubt it.

At it's deepest level "modern jazz" is the expression of complex human emotions musically. While I adhere to "Wikipedia" for the definition of many things, I jump ship when it comes to "modern jazz"; that's because it's a departure from what originated in New Orleans, where they claim is the "birth place" of jazz.

According to me and my ears, no one contributed more to "modern jazz" than Charles "Yardbird" Parker; all you have to do is listen to jazz before and after Charles "Yardbird" Parker. He didn't just help to invent "Bee Bop" he changed things in a way that can heard, as opposed to explained.

He could even incorporate "Bop" in standard tunes like no one else; his Charlie Parker with Strings is the best example of this;


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmRkZeGFONg&list=PLqzxGGRskMsArMdq06cOawHAbO2kBWfmD




As I stated at the beginning, jazz at it's "deepest level" is the expression of complex human emotions. Before one can express these emotions, one must first have them. Never the less, that requires an incredible talent; one that doesn't often come along.

I'll give you examples of the expression of profound emotions: Bobby Timmons "Moanin" is a very clear example, he is also in the top tier of artists who have this capability.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNjRQo-zpKA




I wrote about a close personal friend I had who was also a "Blue Note" recording artist. I will never give his name for two reasons, maybe I revealed too much personal information when I wrote about him, and last, the incredible music he was playing when he shared my apartment was never recorded; therefore I can't prove that he was much more incredible as an artist, than the music that's recorded on Blue Note.

I stated that he had no formal training. That was interpreted as musicians who don't go to "formal" school are better than musicians who do. That was a moronic interpretation; not going to a formal school is a severe handicap; it's necessary to write music in order to be successful. Musicians skipped formal school in times past because of financial limitations.


Everything that happens in this country is related in some way to everything else; those with a myopic view of things are totally unaware of this. If one is financially secure, and focused on turntable setup, they would hardly be aware of the socioeconomic condition of the "lower middle class", but whether they are aware or not, that affects the quality of jazz in this country because that's where it comes from.

The Yuko Mabuchi Trio has really captivated me as of late. Her piano playing is technically engaging while also being soulful. Plus, her 45 vinyls are sonic delights!

Thanks Frogman,  excellent and informative as always.   Where would this thread be without you.

I asked about the rehearsal solo because, as you pointed out Wynton was 'digging' it, and the sax player turned around to look at Kisor as he played, so I just wondered if that was the first time they had heard it, or if they knew what was coming.   Great explanation.

Old, New, Modern Traditional..........   I think I am lost.   I think it would useful if we synchronized eras / calendars / terms.   In other words, a few definitions and time frames would be helpful.

I suspect 'modern' Jazz started a long long time ago.    I have no idea what 'old' and 'new' means as pertains to Jazz.  I have always thought 'modern' started with the break with New Orleans and swing.

In my opinion, it's all good except for the 'soundscape' crowd, where EVERYTHING that is improvised in thrown into the JAZZ bin.

Cheers

"Modern" is the break with New Orleans and swing.

Hey guys , in any field of life sooner or later you hit the wall .A car can only go so fast , you can only run so fast and eat so much .
Nobody writes new music better than Bach because in this day and age it is impossible , ditto with the great American Song book . The greatest musician in the world composes and plays in a time and place that no amount of genius can ignore .

Even a fool like me can hear musicians in all genres are trained better today than back in whatever day .IMO that often makes thing worse with the player being more important than the music .
I would like an analogy in Jazz but that is beyond me . I (think) I can make make one in classical .
There are a plethora of truly great violinists today ,within two bars you know that is is Bell , that is Perlman , that is Mutter ad infinitum .
Of say the top twenty there is one player , the German Julia Fisher , that all you can say is , that is Bach , that is Mozart , that is Brahms etc.


Fisher trained in a  way not universal but possible in German Schools of Music , 3 years as a chamber musician , primarily string quartets , where you learn to make the music first .To be fair there is one American player that comes close, Hillary Hahn .

Yuko Mabuchi is a very engaging jazz artist.

I will offer more thoughts on definitions and timelines when I have more time, but just want to make and stress an important point which is why some of the analogies presented don’t hold up. Nothing (!) that Kisor plays in that solo has anything (!) to do with “better training”, “speed”, etc. Notice how much space he uses. No flashiness or gratuitous speed. No super high playing. Instead, what makes his solo interesting is creativity (!) built upon a deep knowledge and understanding of what came before him with a vision to take it somewhere new. Sustains interest for the listener with ideas, creativity and great feeling of swing; the essence of good Jazz. And, he does it all with a harmonic concept that goes beyond what many of the greats (“old”...sorry) discussed here did. Great player and a great example of the evolution of the language of a Jazz. His concept is “new”, the tune is “old”.

***** Of say the top twenty there is one player , the German Julia Fisher , that all you can say is , that is Bach , that is Mozart , that is Brahms etc.*****

You can also say that is a Stone Fox!   Frau Fisher, that is.

Cheers

It must have been in the 80’s when I was really making the rounds in all the jazz clubs in the St. Louis area that featured live jazz; I mean the groups that were called "house bands". Ahmad Jamal started as the "house band" for The Pershing on the South Side of Chicago.

Many of our famous jazz musicians started by playing in an "unknown house band". Some of those musicians (St. Louis house bands) would probably have become famous if all those clubs had remained open, but when the economy for "the lower middle class" took a ride to the bottom, those clubs could no longer stay open, all are now closed.

I recall one club band that was especially unique; they featured a jazz musician who played the African Kalimba. I have never heard anything like it before or since, and this is the best example I could find after searching, maybe you can find something better?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPc59Y7KHqg



My point is, had this band developed and recorded, I would have at least one of their albums in my collection.

You grow corn in corn fields, wheat in wheat fields, and you grow the best jazz musicians in jazz clubs.

Another version of "Concierto De Aranjuez";



      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx6BinLTeOk


     

  ***** played the African Kalimba. I have never heard anything like it before or since, *****

The Frogman's first law is in effect.


***** Concierto De Aran*****

Nice enough, but what does it have to do with Jazz?

Cheers

Speaking of Social Justice,   how can there be justice when a man has to sell his albums with Basie and Lester?   Now that's cruel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvH8Cpnwx_U

Cheers

Growing corn:

https://youtu.be/OwTU01VffwU

Going back to pjw's clips with Red Rodney interviews, did you know when he toured the south with Parker's band he was called Albino Red?  That was a role reversal so he could get into the restaurants and hotels with the band when it was still more segregated.

o10, thanks for those new musician/older music Mingus Big Band clips.  Great stuff.

And frog, as I've said before, being a non-musician I greatly applaud your insights into performing jazz.  With understanding comes greater appreciation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsWidlDldVk

Yup , with frogman on the job you get a year worth of music education
without any tuition !
rok, a lot of jazz guitarists play it or parts of it .

Go to my last clip on Classical Aficionados and you will see a
female trumpet artist who is the fox of all fox’s in the musician file .
Ah , make that second to last , yesterday anyway .

Jazz is a way of playing music.
Jelly Roll Morton

Same tune, but, The Miles clip was Jazz.

Cheers

Actually Rok, I was chiming in on a previous conversation in regard to that tune by posting Dorothy Ashby; it ain't watcha play, but the way that you play it that makes it jazz.

Alison Balsom,

Schubert is right. We have a new #1 Classical Fox. Beautiful, talented, English and plays Trumpet. What’s not to like.

There is just something about English Classical music. Simple?

I have to have a daily fix of Handel.

Cheers

The vibe in England goes back a thousand years and educated English folk
have it their DNA (really) .
The greatest of the English composers from Tallis. Purcell , Byrd , down
the centuries to Vaughn Williams , Parry and Elgar, no matter what they wrote always looked over their back toward God .When you go to the source of love you encounter truth which is always simple.
Hear Vaughan Williams ",The Lark Ascending", a simple piece that is as beautiful as anything ever written . And he was an agnostic .

Since Handel was German I put" Messiah" only half in English court .But the Concerti Grossi are English . All his Chamber Music truly will clear your head . Hundreds of masterpieces seldom listened too . Disgrace ( to include me) .

I can not believe there is a jazz icon that we have neglected but there is; his name is "James Moody". Please post you're awareness of this icon.

While his most memorable tune is "Moody's Mood For Love", his most significant tune for me is "Last Train  From Overbrook". That's because I associated it with the last train from Union Station in St. Louis, which I boarded for destination Lackland AFB, my very first great adventure.


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=028UoUkO7zc


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0XYZNx6854


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2N8bVpRneQ

I cannot believe that this vibraphonist of truly great genius was not more known...His name is Walt Dickerson and Sun Ra who was a great discoverer of musical genius play the second fiddle on piano with him on 2 cd...This is one, look for the other also...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqrVpT_Kl9E

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtBtuvq581U

On that first link, people use to do things like that when they were on LSD.

Honestly, I must admit that I never heard of "Walt Dickerson", but I'm sure our resident "musicologist", Frogman can fill us in.

Today's Listen:

Lionel Hampton & Stan Getz  --  HAMP AND GETZ

Talk about an odd pairing.   The notes say the session came about as a result of Hamp and Getz being in the same place at the same time while working on the movie 'The Benny Goodman Story'.
Recorded 1 August 1955.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBuVenxA0i8  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPFa36raJSg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xge6ReATb_E

Cheers

Schubert,

Handel, performed by The Frogman’s favorite conductor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNqJ8mED1VE

Love the shoes. French ensemble.

Horns in tune??

Cheers

Today has been a very strange day, maybe I'll wake up and discover it was just a dream.

**** Handel, performed by The Frogman’s favorite conductor. ****

Please, don’t spread any nasty rumors.

**** Horns in tune?? ****

Actually, no 😱

Nice Getz.  

That's the most raggedy and F....d   up rendition of that I ever heard and I've heard a few .