Jazz for aficionados

Frogman ,  here is THE  real deal .


https://youtu.be/XNSxj0TVeJs?t=1

Carolyn Lee Jones:

Very nice.  Was not familiar with her, but Jazz can always use more Texas.

Cheers

Schubert, this video:

“Language, Creativity, and the Limits of Understanding” by Professor Noam Chomsky "

Is 1:26 minutes long. When I have more time I will watch it.

What did you think of my short summary of the post WWII debriefing on the German officers of the Wehrmacht? I posted it only in response to your quote and posting of General Butler’s commentary on this important topic. I would like to hear your perspective on what I posted since you are obviously a well educated man.

acman,

 I agree with rok about Close Your Eyes by Carolyn Lee Jones. I was not aware of her either and the trio behind her is awesome as well as her voice.

frogman,

In regards to my new Charlie Parker and co. JATP 1949 disc I agree it has already become one of my favorites and will get plenty of listens here.

Did you really pick up by listening that Parker's reed was faulty?

Your quote "history lesson" was that about the jazz or my summary of the debriefing of German officers post WWII?

James Moody, "last Train From Overbrook";


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5In7YPC-sL4

pjw, if you listen closely you’ll hear that Bird’s reed is chirping or squeaking a little bit; its the high pitched sound that you hear for an instant at the beginning of some of his phrases.  Stan Getz was notorious for playing squeaky reeds.  “History lesson” referred to the clip.

pjw, I thought it showed you think about the most important things and I was impressed.
They were scientists in uniform . Like all Imperial countries the USA had their eyes on them for a long time and we planned to bring them to USA
ASAP after the war . Imperial country is not an insult per se , it means a nation
that controls important decisions of other nations .Brits being #1 at that .USA had considerable experience at that as well , after the Spanish American war we controlled the Philippines , Puerto Rico and Cuba .As well as Hawaii and Guam.There ourselves not with puppets , our usual MO .

As well, in various ways, every country in South and Central America save Brazil .All the Imperial Countries have Staff Plans for at least 50 years out as to how who should control others . They worked in the White House and Pentagon, just on that,
all during WW II . USA and UK never saw Germany as the main enemy ,
our ally Russia was that .

Again this is not unique to USA nor is it something new . Columbus sailed
because of one .

It took me a long time to “get” Sam Rivers. Tenor player who was prominent in the “avant garde” or “free” Jazz scene. However, he was one of the few who could also play credibly in a more structured setting. Many free players violate one of Jazz players’ most important “rules”: You can’t play “outside” the harmony until you know how to play “inside” it. Many “free” players simply don’t have the command of harmony to sound convincing in a more traditional setting. Sam Rivers could do it....in his own unique way.

In 1964 George Coleman left Miles’ band and Sam Rivers would fill the teno slor for just a few months since Rivers turned out to be a little too “out” even for Miles. Wayne Shorter would then come in to round out what would be my favorite Jazz quintet of all time.

This recording of a concert in Tokyo that Rivers played with Miles is one of my favorite Miles records and one that seems to stay under the radar. Miles sounds wonderful and the rhythm section shows why it is my favorite rhythm section of all time. Tony Williams sounds incredible with that light touch and amazing ability to propel the music forward. To my ears there has never been a rhythm section who was as responsive and interactive with what the soloist is doing as this one; and did it as a unit. The tempo changes and decreases/increases in energy that compliment the shape of the solos is fantastic. He was no Wayne Shorter, but I find Rivers’ playing interesting on this recording. Takes it out harmonically often, but doesn’t stray to far. Unusual tone. I used to think it was ugly, but has grown on me. Great record with lots of surprises including an unusually fast take of “So What”.

https://youtu.be/ogOBeYvdC2U

https://youtu.be/-xkiPPSVRvE

https://youtu.be/4YzC76cwJwM

https://youtu.be/NFQVXp5dFdg

https://youtu.be/FOydWldAyvc

Notice the very appreciative Japanese audience.

There's always a "showman ship" stereotypical jazz quality to the music when the artist is in Japan; it's not about the music, but pleasing the Japanese audience; "So What" played too fast ain't cool.

Japanese think in "group" not "me" in almost everything they do .
Like a good Japanese audience, in the intro they clapped a bit more for the
’little guys" ’than the world known icons . And exploded for the group which is always the most important thing, to include the music itself .


For the money you can make in Japan who wouldn’t want to please the audience ?And Sony no baloney .

It was sometime ago that I was told by a professional jazz musician who had tickets to Japan, that they couldn't make it without Japan; that may still be true.

BTW, that musician now resides in France.

O-10, I could not disagree more with that comment. i would be careful with stereotypes in general. I have performed in Japan many times. Always a very appreciative and knowledgeable audience that, if anything, humbles the musicians due to the contrast to many American audiences. “Pleasing the audience”? Really? This from the guy (Miles) who was notorious and criticized for turning his back to the audience during concerts? I don’t think so. I understand that you don’t like 60’s Miles, but I believe you are confusing dislike with “stereotypical”. That music is anything but “stereotypical” and to suggest that “it is not about the music” is very unfair to the musicians; not to mention not true. There is an awful lot of very inspired playing on that record.

Interesting, similarly to "So What", "If I Were A Bell" was also played at a faster tempo than I remember hearing it.  So was that just an obvious way that Miles never wanted to play anything the same way twice, or were they in a hurry to get through the performance? ;^)

Pryso,  they were doing what they always did when in Japan; they played to the audience.  If you listen to any jazz album you can find that was recorded live in Japan you will hear "showboating"; that's because the Japanese liked that kind of playing. 

Miles never played songs too fast when he was at home, why did he play it too fast in Japan?

Pryso, the comment I'm about to make is not about this artists music, (the music is good) but watch her exaggerated movements; this is what jazz is in general over there.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIYIAuwzsGQ


Notice how this tune starts out "normal" but in the middle they jazz it up and break out into some "showboating" jazz; that's what they like in Japan and that's what they give them; sometime it's overdone. Playing tunes too fast might be such an example.


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-T0c3FDEkM

The OP is correct, as he sometimes is, on this.   ANYTHING western is a great curiosity there, and if it's done by black folks, it becomes THE THING.  When ever  I see / hear Jazz played in Asia, I think, another great performance wasted on foreign ears.

To them, its a sign they are wealthy and have become a rich / important nation in the world.   They can import Miles.   How cool is that.   It's a prestige thing.

Reminds  me of a DVD I once ordered titled 'Ray Charles In Brazil'.  Now that just had to a killer DVD.   We know what Ray brings, then we think of Rio, Babes, Carnival etc......  How can it miss?
    
Well, it remains the worst DVD I have ever purchased.   Performed on a nondescript high school like stage in front of the then ruling Junta, and their 'ladies'.  It was a prestige thing.   So as Ray and the Raelettes did their best, the audience just sat there like stone soldiers.

Big Time foreign entertainment, esp American, is seen as proof that a country has 'arrived' in many parts of the world.

Cheers

Today’s Listen:

Ella Fitzgerald / Duke Ellington -- ELLA FITZGERALD SINGS THE DUKE ELLINGTON SONGBOOK
Ella sings with small groups and full orchestra.

2CD set. Excellent booklet with pictures. I could have posted them all, it’s that good. 37 total tracks. All the Jazz greats play on this session. Too many to list.

with orchestra, check the Trumpet playing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mB45AIHJ04&list=OLAK5uy_kfU4X2p8rBHukodapKaobAgzPJRe4410c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMz01jD1634&list=OLAK5uy_kfU4X2p8rBHukodapKaobAgzPJRe4410c&index=4

with small groups

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-XCw8dlrxQ&list=OLAK5uy_kfU4X2p8rBHukodapKaobAgzPJRe4410c&index=15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83L8ol-SYnQ&list=OLAK5uy_kfU4X2p8rBHukodapKaobAgzPJRe4410c&index=20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xikVWnJVgc&list=OLAK5uy_kfU4X2p8rBHukodapKaobAgzPJRe4410c&index=24


Ain’t got it, git it.

Cheers

Ella sounds better than ever on that album, I'll have to get it.

Lincoln Center, which I believe to be in the U.S.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8b5i3YGy9c

IMHO, the faster pace has to do with Tony Williams, not location.

Is there a general  opinion on" Sketches in Spain "?

Not in the U.S., but at Monterey a few months earlier. Shows the band had moved on.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yp3WPBMTTE

Thanks for the Sam Rivers playing with Miles. I had never heard that. 

Schubert, I somehow believe the general opinion will be mixed. ;)

I like it , but after hearing the music it comes from, have found the classical versions better. I still listen to it on occasion.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsWidlDldVk

I find it interesting that there have been a lot of baseless assertions about “pleasing an audience” , “not about the music”, “nationalities/appreciation”, etc., and not a single comment about the playing on the Miles in Tokyo recording.  Fantastic and interesting playing from masters surely deserving some commentary.

Musicians play tunes at different tempos or different other ways all the time.  They may play it faster as a personal challenge; or, as is probably the reason on this recording, musicians react when there is a lot of energy in the room and the tempos tend to be more crisp.  

The important point to understand is that no aspect of artistic integrity has to be sacrificed, as is being asserted, by playing the tune faster or slower.  The idea that musicians of that caliber would compromise their artistic integrity by playing a tune faster, for any reason, knowing that the result will be an inferior performance is nonsense and insulting to the musicians.  

The truth is that Japanese audiences are very knowledgeable about Jazz; more so than many aficionados in the USA.  Sure, they like most people around the world are fascinated by many things American.  So what?  I find the suggestion that because of this they are less appreciative or insightful of the music, or cause musicians to cater to them in artistically harmful ways, to be very cynical and ill informed.

https://youtu.be/gwSfV4GWOgE

"So What"; I betcha they can't play it backwards?

The question, to me,  seems to be, do touring American Jazz artists feel they have to 'put on a show' in front of foreign audiences.

In other words, Would Miles, Trane, or any  other top tier Jazz player,  play any Jazz music,  in  Korea or Japan, the same as they would in NYC?

It's a yes or no answer.

Cheers

There is no way I can convey to anyone, my shock in 68, when Miles came on stage looking like a hippy in his fringed buck skin vest, and playing this music; that seems so normal now; but at that time, there was total silence in the auditorium, and you could see a big bubble WTF coming from the audience.


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6eZHnIA__A&list=RDS6eZHnIA__A&start_radio=1

YES .

When you compare that music he played in 68, with this music, which most of the audience expected, maybe you can comprehend where I'm coming from.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXSjJBKPyFg

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

O-10, I get it; I know where you’re coming from. However, Jazz fans in 1968 that were expecting Miles to be playing music that sounded like that “Love For Sale” (great!) had not been paying attention to Miles’ music too closely. That “Love FS” was 1958. Ten years before. An eternity in Miles’ evolution as an artist. The music he was playing in 1964 live in Tokyo is precisely the connecting missing link in this argument. What he was doing in 1964 was as much a departure from what he was doing in 1958, as 1968 was different from 1964. The remarkable thing is that it is all a clear and audible evolution heard in the corresponding styles. Anyone following Miles’s career since his days with Bird would not have been terribly surprised that he was doing something so different; especially with the knowledge that the great Quintet of the 60s was a thing of the past.

Rok, honest curiosity and question: what would be, in your mind, the reason(s) why Coltrane might have played differently in Japan?

Cannonball "Worksong" Tokyo with all the frills "What message"? it's just music to them.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q88M5gwgGPI


Cannonball "Worksong" for us; Aficionados on the street beat who comprehend the depth of the message; it's a lot more than just music.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCqRYneOdIM





   

I didn't say he would. That is the question.   But, I think artists do consider the audience when they play.   The appreciation level of the audience.

Say a Jazz-wise audience in a NYC Jazz club, compared to a college crowd or even something like the Kennedy Center Honors program.

People that come out to hear not only Jazz, but a particular Jazz player,  vs  people who may be in the audience for any number of reasons.

A few years ago the Bolshoi Ballet came to our town.   The place was packed.   Now, I don't think there are that many ballet lovers in central Texas.   But it was a big deal, and everyone wanted to be there.   

The performance was magnificent!!!!   How do I know?  Because no one fell down.  I bet the dancers knew that would be how they would be judged.  In small town Texas.   The most pressure-free performance they will ever give.

The audience does have an effect on the performers.

Cheers

First, dancers in the Bolshoi don’t fall down......very, very rarely. You also underestimate audiences. If that was your standard as well, then you should see more ballet. The beauty and artistry in a great ballet will touch emotionally at least some in an audience even when they “know” nothing about ballet. I hate to break it to you, but artists are more concerned about what their colleagues think of their performance than what the audience thinks. An artist, by definition, keeps the bar very high. Of course they all have better days than other days, but it is seldom by design.

**** But, I think artists do consider the audience when they play. The appreciation level of the audience. ****

Sure they do....sometimes. Some may not perform certain material that they think might be too adventurous, or controversial, for a particular crowd. However, that has nothing to do with the quality of the performance which was the original contention....that it wasn’t about the music; that somehow they were “dumbing it down” in order to please the audience.  Again, that goes to artistic integrity. Some artists like Miles were very uncompromising that way and would play what he wanted to play and the way he wanted to; always.

I know the Lord is testing me.

My point was that the dancers should have been very relaxed compared to, say, performing before the Soviet elites back in the day.  Where a lapse in the artistic area could have been life changing.   For something we would not have noticed.

Stop being so disingenuous.   My point is correct and stands.

Cheers

I know they never fall down.   Maybe they fall off their toes.  :):)

“Disingenuous”. Nice. Must you go there? 

What does “feeling relaxed” have to do with “consider(ing) the audience when they play. The appreciation level of the audience.”? If in fact those dancers were to feel “life changing” pressure when performing at home how does that compare to what Miles might feel playing for a college crowd? Moreover, those dancers may have given a more inspired performance because they were relaxed.

You don’t understand what it means to an artist to maintain. artistic integrity and, with respect, you’re mixing up different considerations. May I ask how many performers you have spoken to about this?

***** Moreover, those dancers may have given a more inspired performance because they were relaxed.*****

My point exactly.   You make my argument for me.   I just said the audience can and do effect the performers.

***** If in fact those dancers were to feel “life changing” pressure when performing at home how does that compare to what Miles might feel playing for a college crowd?*****

If Stalin is your critic, you are perfect or in the gulag.   That may affect your performance.

Miles, I don't know the man, MAY have thought these guys wouldn't know great Jazz if it fell on them.   That may affect his performance.   He may have gotten sloppy, he may have been 'relaxed' and played inspired Jazz.   Does not matter.   My point is who you play for can affect how and what you play.

I am sure personality plays a part.   Miles may have not given a F*** who was present, he just played what he felt like playing.

But I tend to think that if he showed up a venue to play, and in the first row of the audience sat, Coltrane, Ellington, Monk, Armstrong, Bird and Lee Morgan.   I think if would affect him.   I could be wrong.

***** May I ask how many performers you have spoken to about this?  *****

Miles, Trane and I lost contact years ago.   One got lost, one turned into Sinbad.  

Cheers

case in point:

https://www.pbs.org/keepingscore/shostakovich-symphony-5.html

Cheers

**** My point exactly.  You make my argument for me.  I just said the audience can and do effect the performers. ****

Rok, you are  going around in circles.  Of course the performer reacts to the audience.  I made that clear in my very first response to the idea that “performing in Japan is not about the music”: a ridiculous contention.  Reaction to the audience does not mean the music will be inferior. as was suggested.  

**** Miles, I don't know the man, MAY have thought these guys wouldn't know great Jazz if it fell on them. ****

What you are not understanding is that none of the above means that a performer with artistic integrity will, in any way, compromise the quality of the music or his performance; “showboating” being one example.  That was the original and mistaken contention.   Why don’t you  worry a little less about being “correct” and a little more about understanding the very interesting nuances in all this.  Great artists  care about the quality of the art first and foremost; the audience comes after.  

Shostakovich:

Case in point? Hardly. It is a great symphony!!! 
Again, you’re mixing and conflating issues. Did artists live in fear during Stalin’s Russia? Yes, a well documented fact; many left for America. So, what does that have to do with the main argument? Proponent of “the great unwashed” determining the ultimate value in music? Was Stalin the great unwashed? Seems to me he was the elite. Unfortunately, the one with ultimate power.  You are confusing thematic content and style with artistic quality. How does any of this relate to do with Miles playing Jazz to an audience? 

https://youtu.be/ghj5V5cUo1s

This 2 lp set, Tenor Sax Album, Savoy, is awesome. 40's, 50's, Mono, darn good engineers involved.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000M03ANC/ref=tmm_vnl_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&qid=&sr=

rok, Its about like saying a great car mechanic has a different tool box for every brand of car .

Personnel, track listing, facts

https://www.discogs.com/Coleman-Hawkins-Ben-Webster-Illinois-Jacquet-Ike-Quebec-John-Hardee-The-Tenor-Sax-Album/release/2828073

Rol, you may find these essays interesting:

https://americansymphony.org/symphony-no-13-op-113-babi-yar-1962/

https://americansymphony.org/behind-the-curtain-submission-and-resistance-under-the-soviet-regime/

You don't have to go to Russia to find examples .
Some of the greatest vinyl ever laid down was made  by the autocrat Fritz Reiner   when he conducted the Chicago Symphony .
First thing he did was fire the best musician in the band because every one
else looked up to him .
And if the Union had not took him to court he would have stayed fired .