Jazz for aficionados
If Thelonious Sphere Monk had wanted lyrics, he would have written lyrics. He plays his composition "radically" different every time he plays it; if he had any lyrics in mind while he was playing his composition, he wouldn't do that. People want lyrics to "abstract instrumental music" because un-imaginative people like to be told what to think; they even like coloring books with the numbers so they know what color to paint. |
O-10, I suppose it is no surprise, but I could not disagree more with your comment... **** Old school is the only school", and even you have been confirming this with your posts. **** Your assessment of the “new” Jazz that I have posted here is your assessment and in no way an indication of any “confirmation” on my part. The first half of your sentence “Old school is the only school” makes my previous point perfectly. This serves as a great segue to my response to you, Alex. That sentence is what I would consider “nonsense” and is along the very same lines as what was the reason for and what I referred to with my previous use of the word “nonsense”. I referred to the assertion that it was “case closed”. Nonsense. Unless there is no possibility of a different viewpoint it is nonsense. Case is not closed. Now, to your comment, Alex. Don’t be so quick to judge my words to another when your judgment is based on a contradiction. **** Creative genius...it is definitely the matter of perception and of ones standards **** If it is, in fact, a matter of personal perception then the case cannot be closed. Don’t you think? That is the contradiction . **** we are kind of split between the ones who like older stuff more, **** You make the same mistake that is often made here. Those who like the new stuff, don’t like the old stuff any less.....glass half full. Difference is there is no automatic bias against the new stuff which would be.....glass half empty. **** still I ve got the feeling that it has not got the ’power’ as ’older’ artists had. **** That’s the bias. **** Maybe with time we shall be able to see it better....**** If you truly believe that, then it cannot be case closed. And I do hope you shall be able to see it better. Regards. |
I never thought of 'after the fact' lyrics to Jazz tunes as being 'permanent'. Just something a singer did to a tune that struck their fancy. It did not affect the original tune in any way thereafter. Now, if a tune is written with lyrics, then they are, and will always be, part of the tune. Cheers "reality is what is, not what ain't" I'm still laughing. Great one. |
Frogman, just to make things clear, I do not think that the ’case’ is closed,not from any point of view, just said that I would not dismiss Op’s words as such. As I said, Woody Allen made a movie about that subject and I tend to agree with his point, that I shared in a clip. Take a look at it (the movie) and the clip https://youtu.be/XbkKirBSQnI |
Thanks for your clarification, Alex. So, let’s see.... You seem to object to the use of the word “nonsense”. You seem to find it offensive or provocative. Is that it? Allow me to pose this question: Which is more offensive? To contradict a comment made or belief expressed (mine) in response to an entirely different person’s (pryso) comment with an opposing viewpoint; and then finalizing that opposing viewpoint with “case closed”? Or, for the person who was contradicted (me) to then refer to the comment “case closed”, a comment that leaves no room for discussion or debate, as being nonsense? |
Frogman, I look at my record collection and all the money I wasted trying to find something new. The funny thing is, the rich record store owner gave me advice every time I walked into his store, and he made his fortune selling jazz records. He always steered me toward the accepted giants of jazz, but I told him I wanted something "new". I bought records from him when he sold them on the corner out of a card board box; I still have some of those choice collectors items. Now he's got record stores all over the place (he never quit selling vinyl) Why I didn't take his advice, I don't know, but now I've got a ton of records for "Goodwill". Maybe I have some of that "new music" you speak of which I will give you for the postage alone. |
Rok, I told you these were the worst of times, and you told me these are the best of times for music because of "You tube". You were right, and I've got a secret to tell you, but you must promise not to tell any other "jazz aficionado"; I know you wont. I just discovered a tune by "Patsy Cline" that I don't think is half bad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMq16fJ8rbM |
Well, back then, the radio was all there was in small Southern Towns. It was country music and Broadway / Show-tunes. The Wayward Wind, Canadian Sunset, On the Street where you live etc...... Of course later, R&R came on the scene. But, by then, we had been imprinted. Glad to hear someone other than me knows Stafford. I always wondered why she had a man's name.:) Cheers |
Watch the sunrise on a tropic isle See the pyramids along the Nile Just remember darlin', all the while You belong to me See the market place in old Algiers Send me photographs and souvenirs Just remember when a dream appears You belong to me I'll be so alone without you Maybe you'll be lonesome too and blue Fly the ocean in a silver plane See the jungle when it's wet with rain Just… Yes, every word was important, along with the beautiful voice and good music. Tropic Isle and pyramids along the Nile certainly stirred my childhood imagination. Fly the ocean in a silver plane, see the jungle when it's wet with rain; that painted a picture. Vocals are vocals, instrumentals are instrumentals; let them be separate and never the twain shall meet; unless on a temporary basis. |
One of the great Jazz LP photo covers. I didn't hear no singing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIgLt7LAZF0 Case Closed. Cheers |
That is the most unforgettable picture and music I can think of; it was when Miles was "Miles", no buckskin fringed vests and stuff like that. That is the most mysterious opening music; the city is like that "Round Midnight"; maybe you're on a lit sidewalk or in the shadows where it's dark, just before you get to the skyscrapers, it all determines the mood. "Trane" enters the scene with a dramatic burst of light to let you know that you are in the city. This is Miles and Trane at their best. |
Whatever you choose to call it (vocal or instrumental), or to like it better or not, it does not matter, because it is excepted in existing form. Again, I find the words quite suiting, but its just my hubmle opinion. Frogman, we all have our ways of expression. Op is sometimes passionate, but its not something new, its his core belifs that he is speaking about. Personally, I always tend to focus more on ’what the poet ment to say’, rather than on how he said it. You, on the other hand,should certainly possess the wider perspective since your education and work had gave you the possibility to learn, practice and understand music on scale which is unknown for us,the simple ’aficionados’. But, as they say, with knowledge comes the responsibility and in this case that (imho) sometimes means excepting the role of enlightener, which often was and is very ungreateful task. But, for whatever reasons, you have took it some time ago. So, I fully understand your reactions, hope that you will be patient and that you will endure doing what you have done for some time, educating us all and trying to show us bigger perspective. Of course, you should not count on us beeing overly grateful for that (jk) Simply said,if for nothing else, than for the sake of the knowledge itself, you are not ’allowed’ to respond in a way that you feel that you are adressed, but to always try to speak with arguments first. It is an interesting subject and if we all keep it civil enough, we all might learn something |
o-10, I'm a little surprised by your "rigid" response. Jazz is suppose to be a fluid expression and I assume that means the listener as well as the performer. "Miles was Miles". Absolutely! Miles was always Miles, his own man, from everything I've read about him. But he continuously moved forward with his music. Not all of us followed him. I'm guilty of that too as I mostly appreciate what I suspect we commonly enjoy the most. But how can we say he was no longer Miles once he plugged in? I consider him a true individual who was true Miles right up to the end. The fact that you or I didn't follow or appreciate all that he produced doesn't matter. We are fortunate that we can select the particular era of Miles we love and revisit it as often as we like through our recordings. But that is one of the pleasures of the history of an art form like jazz. It is enormously varied and we are free to pick what pleases us most as individuals. |
Pryso, the subject of Miles is ancient history; "Round Midnight" is the new subject. Even Miles accepted the fact that few of the people he loved, and who loved him would like his new music, but that didn't change anything one iota in regard to him. They (a handful of people) no longer bought his new music, but each one that didn't was replaced by 100 who did. All of those people he knew who quit buying his music were still welcome to his home. The subject of Miles new music was sort of moot before he died. People who like chocolate ice cream, still like chocolate, and those who like vanilla, still like vanilla. |
Alex, thank you for your thoughtful response. I agree with your premise. Only thing I would add is that “passion” is not an excuse for lack of fair mindedness. I agree with your stance on lyrics. On that very subject: I don’t suppose it has crossed the minds of those vehemently opposed to added lyrics that by that (questionable, at best) standard possibly as much as half of the most popular tunes in instrumental Jazz would then be deemed “invalid” since those tunes were conceived as songs with lyrics (“vocals”). The Great American Songbook is just one canon. **** Vocals are vocals, instrumentals are instrumentals; let them be separate and never the twain shall meet; unless on a temporary basis. **** |
An entirely different approach to the song. Warning: It’s a vocal version 😊 https://youtu.be/gTmVgIYwd3k |
So many of your good thoughts, I could contemplate on each of them. About the closings. Imo, closings are good, healthy but also dead. Healthy dead - meaning that’s easier way of dealing with things (sometimes highly appreciated but that is not the point here). You finish with it and walk away for good. The harder way: A seed of life planted in closing - to give the chance for a new type of closing sometime in the future. Desirably an improved one. ’Cause things change. We change. What they told you about the wolf, his coat and his disposition concerns only the animal world. Like to think we are more than an animal. Well, mostly. On lyrics. I used to liked songs with lyrics. Actually, those were the only one I liked. Words were far important to me than any melody. Now I rarely listen the songs with lyrics. It is not because I do not like the lyrics but it’s because that in this case I find singer failed in performance in some way. If the job is done right, lyrics and music should be melted - You hardly notice when the singer started singing or when the singing ended. If the job is not done right, either one or another stands in front of other, jumping out from the railway, preventing me from enjoying the song in full. I also think that somewhere the lyrics in song are surplus. The same as sometimes the spoken words are surplus - there is simply no need for them. |
Do you need words in the song like this, my all time favourite... I envy no rock guitarist as much as I envy the ones in classic. The purity of each note made on the guitar and high discipline is never so required as in classic guitar. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzEFQW9CXGc No words required... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD6k2E61ABY But this song I can’t imagine without Billie’s voice. All melts perfectly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouuRsRz8syM |
I understand italian but not that good and from some reason I need not to undrestand all words in this song. Does that mean that words could be surplus here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPrf-svWUAQ But how would I react on this song if I haven’t heard it with lyrics before? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xixFY8v4Nmg Does right question ever has firm answer? Right question raises another question... |
One further thought on the issue of lyrics and why this debate is, as I said before, much to do about nothing. First, let’s establish some semantics guidelines; it would be helpful in avoiding confusion. By definition, a “song” is a musical composition intended to be sung; it has lyrics. A wordless composition is a ”tune”, “instrumental”, or “piece”; which doesn’t become a “song” until lyrics have been added. Obviously, I have no way of knowing the actual percentage, but I would wager that at least half of all “songs” were composed by a song writing team. George and Ira Gershwin, Kander and Ebb, Rodgers and Hart, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Bernstein and Sondheim, Lennon and Macartney and Elton John and Bernie Taupin to name just a few of the most prominent ones. As described in the film “Rocketmam” that I saw recently (didn’t like), often one half of the team (John) has a stack of “tunes” that he has composed waiting for the other half of the team, the lyricist (Taupin), to write lyrics for the tune; or, the lyricist has a stack of lyrics waiting for a tune. Many of the great and popular songs played as Jazz instrumentals were written first as wordless tunes and lyrics were added after the fact; or the reverse is true. Any tune is a candidate for lyrics. mary_jo, of course the question has “firm answer”. As you point out the performance is key. A great singer can make inferior lyrics sound fantastic. A poor singer can take poetic genius and make it sound terrible. Same for the musical performance part of it. As always, our personal bias has a tendency to creep into our reaction. Forgive me if I am mistaken and I don’t mean to take liberties, but I suspect that your feeling about lyrics being unnecessary, for Aranjuez in particular, became stronger as you became a stronger guitarist yourself. Here’s an interesting twist to the question. Two vocal versions; one in Spanish the other in French. Same song, same singer, two different languages. She can sing and has recorded in several different languages. Which version of the song is more effective? Both beautiful, but for me the Spanish version wins hands down. Is that because of my personal bias (Spanish is my native tongue); or, is this a reflection of the well documented connection between the music and the language of a culture making the Spanish version more effective? Spanish: https://youtu.be/VQA-0q9f4qo French: https://youtu.be/sERXZEM6sy8 You may find this quote interesting: “That melody is so strong that the softer you play it, the stronger it gets, and the stronger you play it, the weaker it gets." - Miles Davis |
OK, enough already; this debate began specifically in regard to "Round Midnight"; those who want to hear the lyrics in their mind every time they hear the tune even when it’s just instrumental without them, please do so. Please, cry in your bear with memories of long lost love; if you don’t have any beer I’ll send you one of mine. Just don’t claim those "dippy" lyrics are what the song is about because that spoils the instrumental versions of the song for everyone. Now go in peace; lyricists and non-lyricists. Correction, song implies words; make that "The music that Thelonious Sphere Monk composed". |
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All I know is the Great American Standards , and great they are, would not be what they are without lyrics . My favorite, " Autumn Leaves" is largely what it is because it was written by a Frenchman . Spanish is a great and beautiful language, a strong second to that almost universally considered the most beautiful, French. A bias would be if you did not feel your native tongue the most lovely . German is, objectively , considered a harsh and guttural language and so it is .To me, because of the Schubert lieder and my love for the country in general, it sounds’ more better" than English . That’s a bias .but not too much as they were the same language once and English is harsh as well. To my hears the French is more beautiful than the Spanish and I know little of either . My bias is to sing to "Concierto en Aranjiuez " is little short of criminal . I think it is a true and wonderful Masterpiece for the guitar . I must of heard it a thousand times and every time is like the first . Amazing . |
"By definition, a “song” is a musical composition intended to be sung; it has lyrics. A wordless composition is a ”tune”, “instrumental”, or “piece”; which doesn’t become a “song” until lyrics have been added." You’re right. I thought noone would notice it. It was too late to correct. Thank you for the warning. "Forgive me if I am mistaken and I don’t mean to take liberties, but I suspect that your feeling about lyrics being unnecessary, for Aranjuez in particular, became stronger as you became a stronger guitarist yourself." This is interesting point of view. Never thought about it before. "Many of the great and popular songs played as Jazz instrumentals were written first as wordless tunes and lyrics were added after the fact; or the reverse is true. Any tune is a candidate for lyrics." True. The links you posted, that is such a beautiful voice. Still...do I need it here? Miles knew how to express himself. The quotation says a lot about him. |
"We are on the third straight page of a lyrics or no lyrics debate quickly headed for a fourth." Oh, this means that it is time for commercials... https://youtu.be/cMIUFHY7Wp8 |
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frogman , as you know , Seoul is a human bee-hive !Going from zero to 150 into an industrial economy is a mini-miracle , but it comes at a price . In Korea more than half those over 60 , those who built the economy, live in severe poverty . Government gives less than $200 to elderly and that to only 1/3 rd of them .My Australian ex-pat buddy took me around to the large park where elderly women were "sex workers " for 2 bucks . Horrible . If you are young and needed Seoul is a great place . If you can get by with 5 hours of sleep .Reminds me of Chicago , which would be the best city in US if you only went to north side . It sure reminds one how bad our infrastructure really is.in any event . |
o10, I'm well aware nearly all the recent discussion has been on "Round Midnight" or adding lyrics to a jazz tune in general. So I was reacting to your statement, "That is the most unforgettable picture and music I can think of; it was when Miles was "Miles", no buckskin fringed vests and stuff like that." My intent was to suggest that Miles was always Miles, not limited to a specific time, regardless of how it was performed. Peace. |
Schubert, I'm so glad you're back; yes Chicago, I know that city well: the North Side and Lake Shore drive overlooking the beautiful blue Lake Michigan. Many of the skyscrapers on the lake are filled with apartments, they're not office buildings like in many cities. I once spent two weeks in one of those apartments; it was grand to see how the other half lives, almost 0 crime, you can walk the sidewalks at night in safety on the North Side. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3Oako3Vkrs |
A lovely little rendition of "Autumn Leaves " with a fine Korean Bass , an Italian Violinist and an African guitar player .All doing what music should do , making life a bit better to those who pass bye . https://youtu.be/7t3xBqAWLaU?t=2 I hear that 0-10 . |
I was more than once about to say Jo Stafford in a few discussions on here but did not as I thought nobody had ever heard of her.Her she is with Ella for creds .Her beautiful younger voice on " Moonlight in Vermont " sold millions in a country with a third the population of today. It is a masterclass in breath control and hit every note dead center.Right there on You Tube . She wasn’t Ella but who was..With her perfect pitch she wasn’t embarrassed. https://youtu.be/ctyT-9o4Vl0?t=3 |
Here are the lyrics to "Angel Eyes". Whether it's an instrumental or vocal version, we all think of the same lyrics because the song came with words. When I listen to an instrumental version of this, it can give the words even more power. Try to think that love's not around But it's uncomfortably near My old heart ain't gaining no ground Because my angel eyes ain't here Angel eyes, that old Devil sent They glow unbearably bright Need I say that my love's misspent Misspent with angel eyes tonight So drink up all you people Order anything you see Have fun you happy people The laughs and the jokes on me Pardon me but I got to run The facts uncommonly clear Got to find who's now number one And why my angel eyes Oh, where is my angel eyes 'Scuse me while I disappear Angel eyes, angel eyes Hank Crawford's "Angel Eyes". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2doxAtCfRnE You can hear through Hank's horn, a tortured heart and a painful cry for angel eyes who's with someone else that night. He shares his pain with people at a lounge and buys them all rounds to drink to his misspent love. "Where is my angel eyes tonight"? I can hear Hank's horn crying for Angel Eyes, can you? |
frogman , if you can find time I would appreciate it if you could take a hear to the Alison Balsom post I just put on Classical Aficonados .What Pinnock can do with musicians is off the chart . Near perfect musicianship and Balsom is the most beautiful musician I have ever seen . O-10 a dead man could hear the misery if he knew the lyrics .You can't do an experiment on your self before and after the lyrics, I honestly don't know if I could know myself . That Hank is a play 5 times in a row for me . You guys who know jazz will get me in the poor-house yet looking for that vinyl ! |
