Jazz for aficionados

This is a great piece not to be outdated regardless of anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVdgNXXbm_k

Inna, as you know, we are in full agreement on "Shakti", but this thread is titled "Jazz for Aficionados"; according to the letter of the law.......But this thread has never heeded the letter of the law.

I have a lot of John McLaughlin on Vinyl from before CD.

Let's call it flamenco jazz. The sound is too digital but I couldn't find better quality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY0gQaL_kcg

Some better Flamenco from Paco De Lucia


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBfxZQbCBs0



Paco 'Maleguena'



          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_yvYU5hJ_A



Enjoy

No, I can't stand those singers from his latest group, that's not flamenco singing.
Solea and his other solo performances I know very well. In a sense, they are better because it's pure flamenco, but you can't really compare. I think that Zyryab performance is excellent. Those two guitarists, clearly his former students, are also excellent.

How about just plain old "Spanish Guitar"


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oyhlad64-s


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9efHwnFAkuA



With a little Mexico thrown in;


  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIJZSs2gxdo

Orpheus 10

Acman, it still swings and it's some fantastic sounding music. I no longer categorize, but simply listen to determine whether or not the music meets my qualifications as good sounding music that I would want in my collection, and this will be added if it's not already there.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppNFJbMrOHw

Did id you figure out if it was in your collection and is it on vinyl. 

I looked it it up and there is a double lp out and wondered how the sound quality was. I love that cut you posted. 

Fourwnds, I don't have it, but I will get it.


Zawinul Syndicate 75th Lugano 2007 - Orient Express -. I see that Amazon has it, but I didn't see the LP's I would like to have. That music runs on two tracks at the same time; one is quite intricate; which is Zawinul's nature, and the other is rhythmic, the one Sabine is on.

Is that LP for 23.98 the one you are referring to, is that the double LP? If it is I'll order it tonight.

That Zawinul's Orient Express makes no sense to me. I like him but not as a band leader.
Of course, I know that Paco's tune - new flamenco, nice but not engaging.
I could never convince myself to like Segovia. Not a fan either but when it comes to classical guitar I prefer John Williams overall.

Inna, can you connect with this;


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7VxvMLz1kI


The reason I ask is because I'm going to make the transition from Zawinul in fusion day to the present.

Orpheus10, sure, I quite like di Meola, my favourite album from that time is probably Splendido Hotel.
This is from Casino album:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjJ8rAaYcN0&list=PL8a8cutYP7foPEnsOFrSRomq4-FnJemj8

And this is a very different di Meola:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjJ8rAaYcN0&list=PL8a8cutYP7foPEnsOFrSRomq4-FnJemj8

Like you said Inna, those albums were mood dependent; but they sounded ever so good when you were in that mood;

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLomzUgEsEI&list=RDf6qqmrcVEqg&index=2

Like I said....

Inna, I'm going to conclude our sessions with Arabic Flamenco guitar, and get back into jazz.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adUkn51t0lc

Acman, Kamasi Washington is picking up where "Trane" left off; he's doing this in his mind and in my mind. He can do this, and still be quite individualistic. I see he has also scored for films.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IZt1bHF0GU


This is a guy to be listened to; he is as adventuresome as Mingus was when I first heard him.

Lets get into the jazz bass players;

Ray Brown.
Marcus Miller.
Oscar Pettiford
Victor Wooten
Charlie Haden
Wilbur Ware
Paul Chambers
Jaco Pastorius


Oscar Pettiford is my favorite, and I might repeat myself. I would like for you to find your favorite and post it. whether or not it's one of the above matters not.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5EwGijmqKc

How can any list of great jazz bassists not include Mingus?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7CoJEyiSfE

Right off the bat let me say that I don’t dislike Kamasi Washington; I rather liked the clips that Acman3 posted. However, after having made a point over the last couple of days of listening to several of his clips on YouTube (including some live concert videos) in order to see what all the media hype is about I have to say that, imo, much of it is just that...hype. I think he is an interesting conceptualist who has created a high-energy sound that combines SOME elements of jazz with funk/soul/hip-hop grooves and then pours on lots of dressing with vocals, strings and visual elements. As a player he has absorbed the high energy post-Coltrane-infused funk-tenor language of players like Michael Brecker and Bob Berg pretty well; but, I’m sorry, an accomplished jazz tenor player he is not. Notice that his tunes are mostly very simple harmonically and when he improvises it is always over simple one or two chord vamps. With all due respect, the idea that he has picked up where Coltrane left off is, imo, beyond exaggeration; especially when we have (or had) players like Dave Liebman, Steve Grossman, Brecker and others who are far more accomplished modern tenor players and who clearly extended Coltrane’s harmonic vocabulary. I would bet the iPad that I am writing on that he couldn’t credibly navigate the changes to "Giant Steps", never mind a standard ballad, if his life depended on it. I couldn’t find a single jazz standard by him on all of YouTube and there’s probably a reason why. He does what he does and he does it well: high energy, impressively "large" arrangements best described as "soul-jazz"; and, he looks the part. He has created a rather unique sound, not so much as player, but with his concept as band leader/composer that is appealing and mostly accessible. FOR ME, it just isn’t on a comparable artistic level as some of the artists he is being compared to.

I suspect there’ll be a price to pay for voicing that particular form of critique, Mr. F. ;-)
though I find it way more palatable than some of the outrageous non-music-related social commentary I saw posted over the last couple of days!

I tried Kamasi Washington’s "Epic" a while ago. It’s HUGE...17 tracks and less than 7 minutes shy of 3 hours long! I was attracted by the album art to begin with. I wanted to like him...looked to be someone with a fresh vision. Or maybe just a retro-vision I could relate to. I can’t begin a credible technical assessment of his music skills and can only say, he didn’t hold me. I soldiered on through probably the first 2 discs. Certainly didn’t make it all the way to the end. The virtue of self-editing came to mind and lack thereof in this instance. I wondered what the producer was thinking - but maybe the length is part of the marketing. I won’t presume to rip the guy but "Why" is something else that kept coming to mind as the track time mounted up. Never did go back to listen again. Maybe I should.

The Pitchfork Review: something of a counter to Frogman’s comments (not that I’m taking sides...really not) providing a little bit different perspective
http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/20557-the-epic/

Revisiting...I forgot about the Star Trek Singers.  

A head cleaner...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzkd-N6UrYE&ab_channel=jazzhole13

Pryso, you are so correct; that was a result of my laziness (or tiredness) I just requested a list from google.

I still stand by Pettiford because I was thinking exclusively of the instrument. When you include all of Mingus's talents, he is head and shoulders above anyone else who plays bass, and that's for certain.

Great head cleaner, ghosthouse; and one of the greatest debut albums in all of jazz.  One of my favorite records.  Re the Pitchfork review:

Well, I guess I could simply point out that when going to their website I find that the first six "latest reviews" are of Shabaka Palaces, Sheer Mag, Yoko Ono, Integrity, Waxahatchee and Moon Diagrams.......Yoko Ono!?!  Further research (😉) shows that out of several dozen other record reviews there are one or two of artists that can be rightfully called "jazz" artists.  Let's just say that jazz is not their area of expertise.  The review is honest in its contention that Washington's music seeks to expand jazz's audience by appealing to listeners whose tastes are more in the hip hop or rock camps.  Nothing wrong with that....as long as the hyperbole in the Coltrane and Miles connections is kept in check.  I think your reaction to the sheer size of the "Epic" project is emblematic of a big part of Washington's general musical philosophy: make it big and give the listener lots of it; sure to impress....some.

"Beam me up, Scotty" 

I agree with Frogman's analysis. Just thought Throttle Elevator Music's sound was interesting. I really don't take the comparisons seriously. How much does he sound like the Clash?

Anyway he did play with Gerald Wilson, so a small amount of Jazz cred. ,as a sideman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3vD3Vl_C6k

A  sometimes interesting read, which sometimes pertains to real Jazz. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/24/magazine/kamasi-washingtons-giant-step.html

Bassist Christian McBride is the creative chair for jazz at the Los Angeles Philharmonic –- which means he gets to put together programs at Walt Disney Concert Hall with music he loves. One of the musicians he loves most is jazz pianist and composer Horace Silver.

"Horace Silver's music has always represented what jazz musicians preach but don't necessarily practice, and that's simplicity," McBride says. "It sticks to the memory; it's very singable. It gets in your blood easily; you can comprehend it easily. It's very rooted, very soulful."

I recall an interview of Horace Silver, in which he was telling about the problem he was having with his bass player who was tired of playing the same lines time after time. This is the way the bass player described it.

"I'm tired of playing that same Bing, Bong, Bang time after time". This was when Horace had a successive sting of hits, and they must have all had similar bass lines.

Horace told him, "I got to have you man, that Bing, Bong, Bang is the back bone of the music we got going on lately."

I know that "Senor Blues" was one of the tunes the bass player was referring to, and the bass line must have been similar in a number of other tunes. Regardless how important the same bass line was, the bass player said, "I got to do something different".

Personally, I never noticed it, but maybe you musicians can hear and point out this bass line.

I'll post "Senor Blues", and you guys can post others at about that time with the same bass line.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRdlvzIEz-g

Hello Mr. F-
Thanks for comments on Takin’ Off and that Pitchfork review. On the former (and prior to reading your comments) I went over to the current "Best Debut Album" thread and added that one to it. The more I listened last night the more it impressed me. On the latter, your comments about the "KW - The Epic" review are appropriate. While it’s likely a number of different reviewers covered the recordings you list, the "cultural context" the KW/Epic reviewer works in has to be suspected of influencing their "appreciation" of it.

To O and all...
I check out some of the links and recordings recommended here - certainly not every one. Even so, the content is overwhelming. How do the regulars here...Orpheus, Alex, Frogman, Acman & Rok LISTEN! to all of that stuff? Very often, just one of those albums is like a full Thanksgiving dinner with all the trimmings. It takes a long time to "eat". I don’t have the capacity to digest things that fast...I’m still listening to stuff listed here from months ago and now will be chewing on Takin’ Off. I personally can’t keep up (not that it is a competition or race - I get that) but for me, if nobody recorded one new thing ever again, there’d be plenty for me to last another couple of lifetimes.

Just felt I had to share :-)

O-10,

I had already been thinking about how some musicians need to constantly change, while others are fine with 3 loud chords.

I think it is just how they are wired as people. I have about 30 guys who work with me. Some want to work on the same thing everyday, and quite literally freak out, when given something challenging, while others get a bad attitude when they go to the same job site , or do the same job, two days in a row. It is just who they are.

Ghosthouse, Its hard work, but someone has to do it. ;) 

I really don't know the answer. Maybe , you listen harder, Maybe I don't listen to everything, maybe I have heard the language, and it comes more natural, again maybe I hear the familiar and miss important stuff.

No real way of knowing, especially on the internet.

BTW, that is some great Herbie Hancock.

That's very good Ghosthouse, and that explains why I haven't bought any 'new, new' jazz. If I bought that Herby Hancock, I would be buying 'old' new jazz.

when you take listening to old records after an upgrade, that would mean having heard that record for the 'umpteenth' time, but it sounds new all over again.

I hope I'm responding to your point.

In regard to Kamasi Washington; I never even heard the name before now, but still I hear a shadow of Miles and Trane. Only time will tell how he's going to develop.

Gents - Thanks for your thoughtful replies to, what in retrospect, might have been a bit of a silly comment. I think Acman’s "maybe I have heard the language, and it comes more natural..." definitely has something to do with it. Y’all have been at this a lot longer and way deeper. I’m hearing many things for the first time so the level of concentration invested is automatically going to be greater.

O - I appreciate what you are saying about your buying practices, especially given your "style" preferences. But, if I read you right, that HH Takin’ Off seems like something you would be well served by owning. Also, I have enough old vinyl that I do appreciate what an upgrade (even if just a new cart or an interconnect) does for the listening experience. I get satisfaction holding a good sounding recording that was made 40-50 years ago. It’s like some kind of archeological find but still functional.

I’m not saying there’s no good stuff worth buying given my preferences BUT there’s mountains of the trad jazz I’ve never even heard. Even if only one recording out of ten really grabs me, it is still a TON of music. Mind boggling, really.

Here's something I meant to ask about the HH...
Does anyone else think there's something similar between "Cantaloupe Island"  and "Watermelon Man"?  
I haven't played them back to back but, in memory, when I heard that Watermelon Man it did remind me of Cantaloupe Island...and I don't think it was just the fact there are melons in the titles!  I'm curious what you aficionados might think.  

Well, it is true that men are always noticing and comparing melons 😊.  

You're definitely not imagining the similarities between the two.  First of all, they are both in the same key (F).  They are both modal tunes with few chord changes and changing in four or eight measure phrases.  Both also have a very similar rhythmic feel even WM is usually done a little faster than CI.  The Watermelon Man groove is really a Latin groove very similar to the Cuban "guajira" beat and Cantaloupe Island has a very similar rhythm.  Nice catch.

Acman, the reason I remember that interview is because Horace was so funny, and at the same time articulate. The bassist was tired of repeating "Bing, Bong, Bang" but Horace couldn't live without Bing, Bong, Bang.

They both had a good point, and as I recall they had an amicable split. I see you can understand something like that.

I didn't realize how essential those bass lines were in the string of hits Horace had. I wish I could point them out but I can't; maybe you or Frogman could find the repetitive bass lines in Horace's early string of hits.

Something "newish" (2004)...
Bill Connors, "Return".  BC being the original Return to Forever guitarist (before Al Di Meola)...or so I read.  This is jazz that works for me; hoping others like it too (please don't tell me it's "smooth jazz"!).  Picked this track because of the recent bassist discussion and the great piano work featured (and throughout this recording).  The entire album seems very strong.  Haven't read up on the participants other than the promo stuff about it being Connors' project and a bit of his history with Corea.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-0osZs3hmY&ab_channel=BillConnors-Topic

Frogman - I envy your music education.  Thanks for the melon analysis.  

The guitar is very melodic and the piano sounds good; it's very easy to listen to. This is jazz of a high caliber, performed by some of the best musicians; it certainly keeps my interest; sounds like jazz for a rainy day, with some nice company (as in rainy days gone past).

Orpheus10, after Miles and McLaughlin you can listen to that? It's Manhattan restaurant music.