Jazz for aficionados

I Want To Live is a GREAT movie! A Top 10 Noir for sure.

This is my favorite version and the LP I have;


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_Ne0Ig9lDU&list=PLreXLMe9iHTaEQlGrGK6M8BAfC1egQZrK

Here's Jeru again as Miles called him;


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hi6n03cjNk


The West Coast was definitely more laid back than what we have been featuring. Try this one for size and tell me what you think? In general, do you like West Coast better than East Coast hard-bop?


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12Ahmng5ee0


Enjoy the music.

Hey O - see my reply from 11:35 last evening re West Coast vs Bop. There’s a place for both and fortunately we don’t have to pick one style over the other. "East Coast" (I hadn’t been certain that was a meaningful category name, but since you use it....) definitely seems the grittier of the two. On any given day I might prefer Hard Bop to start, but listen long enough and West Coast, as I said last night, is a nice change of pace.

But talking East Coast, I couldn’t find Pilgrimage as recommended by Frogman. Instead, started listening to Brecker’s Tales from the Hudson River. This is Track 5, African Skies. McCoy Tyner guesting. The entire album is pretty strong. I’ve listened to it all several times since finding it just the other day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCOAvvumyWg&ab_channel=JazzHawk

FWIW - One thing I’m learning about my personal taste at this point in time: tend to prefer quartets and quintets to anything smaller.  In fact, I can get more specific than that.  Start with drums, bass, piano (trio's tolerable if there's a piano) and add one or more other soloists (e.g., woodwind and/or brass).  

any thoughts on the complete plugged nickel show by miles davis on CD?

SQ, re-masterings, etc.?

Sorry, randy-11, can't help you with that one.

O - re the Brubeck Trio w/Desmond & Mulligan...
I had to rewrite what I started out with. Initially: if ALL West Coast Jazz were like THIS, just shoot me.  No doubt, East Coast/bop would be greatly preferred. Geez, give these guys some amphetamine...and I ain’t talking about the tempo!

By the end, however: This is really, really good! Starts out slow and I don’t care much for Desmond’s alto sax tone (not a fan of soprano sax or clarinet, either). Got hooked by Bruckbeck’s solo starting at 6 minutes and especially with the chord progression/theme he plays around the 7 minute mark. Then right before 7:40 Brubeck and Desmond start playing a kind of counter melody duet (not sure the proper technical term). By 9:15 Mulligan has joined in and they are all playing counter melodies (?). It is sounding like a piece of baroque chamber music. Very, very fine.

Tales From The Hudson is also great.  If you like that do make a point of checking out Pilgrimage, it is possibly Brecker's best record and with a poignant story behind it.  It's on YouTube and I posted the link earlier.  

Frogman - I should have been clearer about "unable to find it".  I meant on Tidal or Spotify so couldn't readily listen through the main system.  Yes, I did see it on YouTube.  Thank you.

Ghosthouse, when I went to the record store, it was never about "West Coast" or "East Coast", it was just about the name of the album and who the artists were. Now that I'm trying to communicate with you, in order to help your collection, I'm saying "East Coast" for that purpose.

Frogman is the only professional in our club, and the one to talk to for concise definitions. Since I never had to define things to myself when I went to the record store, I'm quite rusty; fortunately, Frogman is our go to guy for descriptions of music and definitions; he offered to teach me, but I'm too busy to learn, I find it much easier to rely on him for such things.



Enjoy the mmusic.

@frogman 
This is a hard listen for me.  I am 20+ minutes into Pilgrimage and so far (especially w/respect to MBs soloing) it has seemed an undifferentiated mass of noodling.  On the first 3 tracks, very little structure that I can grasp or melodic content (not that I'm looking for something to whistle in the shower).  Okay have now gotten to Tumbleweed and there's a bit more that's accessible here.  I read the All Music comments and the first few reviews on Amazon. A highly regarded album.  I can "see" why you would group it with the likes of Three Quartets.  But overall, kind of a slog for me (and there's still almost an hour left!).  Might be a little beyond where I'm at "music appreciation-wise".  I'll try to come back to it; sometimes the soul receiver ain't tuned in quite right.  Might become a favorite listen as is sometimes the case with things that were not immediately appreciated. Thanks again.  I remain interested in your recommendations.  

Ghosthouse, you've got one person to please, and that's you. Nobody is going to get me to learn to appreciate raw oysters, I don't care how good they are.

There is such a thing as "growing" into a new genre of music when another Aficionado is pointing things out to you; this is the way I would be if I got into classical, but you are doing right by paying close attention to the albums like "Blue Train" where there is a strong consensus, plus the very best sidemen.

Went to the Village Vanguard earlier this week and heard Javon Jackson quartet. Stayed for both sets. They were very cohesive. Javon Jackson (tenor sax) Jeremy Manasia (piano) David Williams (double bass) McClenty Hunter (drums). Easily worth the ticket. Every player worth their salt. Of particular note: the drummer--he is young, he is fast, he is creative. Interestingly, Al Foster (drums--played with Miles Davis and many others--in his 70s now) was in the house and sitting very close to the drum kit. He seemed to be having a good time taking in the show and watching the young drummer work. Also, David Williams has played, it seems, with everybody of note and that dude can make his bass talk--doesn't matter where his fingers are on that fingerboard--he is money.

Isn't that place amazing?!  The vibe as you go down those steps and when you see those photos on the walls of all the greats that played in that room over the years is almost overwhelming.  Btw, I saw Al Foster play there several times in the 80's with Dexter Gordon during Dexter's "comeback" period.  Probably the greatest jazz club still in existence.  Thanks for sharing

Ghosthouse, I was listening to "Something Else" by Cannonball Adderley, released on Blue Note Records in 1958. Also on the session is trumpeter Miles Davis in one of his handful of recording dates for Blue Note.

Cannonball Adderley – alto saxophone
Miles Davis – trumpet
Hank Jones – piano
Sam Jones – bass
Art Blakey – drums


                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLPW93VIVgs


This is the complete album, and I would like to know your honest opinion of this album, as well as all the rest of the aficionados out there?

"Somethin Else" has been one of my favorite albums since it came out. I would like to point out one small detail that's easily overlooked; that's the fact that "Something" on that album is spelled "Somethin" minus the "G"; but however you spell it, it still sounds good.

The music ranges from beautiful ballads to the hardest of "hard-bop", and all the musicians are in fine form. The tunes are: "Autumn Leaves", "Love for Sale", "Somethin Else", "One for Daddy-O" and "Dancing In The Dark"; don't forget to give me your review and rating of this album.




Enjoy this music.

O-10 makes some be very good points that one could say really go without saying.  When listening to music one doesn't have to please anyone but ourselves.  We sometimes "grow into" a genre and jazz being an evolving art form we sometimes have to grow into the different periods of the music.  Sometimes it takes time and more exposure to "get it".  And all that goes to a personal choice which is probably heavily influenced by our respective personalities and the place that each of us has for music in our lives; the relationship.  Some listeners approach the experience with an open mind to all the possibilities and with the firm knowledge that what there is to "get" is not always understood right away as the backdrop.  Or, is the backdrop that the scale is always firmly tipped to the side of what we currently like?  Iow, do we demand that challenging music always prove itself to us right away?  Or, are we comfortable with the idea that sometimes we have to prove ourselves to it as listeners?  It is, after all, the musician who is the artist.  Just some ruminations on what I find is a very rich subject.

Ghosthouse, I must say that I am surprised that you found so little to like in "Pilgrimage".  "undifferentiated mass of noodling"?  Wow!  Structure and blowing that is admittedly much more abstract than in things like "Three Quartets", but still very rich in those regards.  In fact, widely considered Brecker's best writing and most inspired blowing.  You do well to want to come back to it at some point later on and I have a strong feeling that you will come to appreciate it.  After all, in keeping with O-10's comment about "strong concensus", there aren't that many records that receive such strong positive concensus as that one.  

This was Brecker's first solo record; might put some things in context and in some ways my favorite of his solo recordings.  Great lineup too:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLloUaOFZpOhcaevThkk-rW70srfO6LwYI&params=OAFIAVgC&v=sm-CSR...

O - listened to "Somethin’ Else". Interesting feel to it. Overall, more laid back than expected. Seemed more akin to some of that West Coast Jazz you posted. A classic album I’m sure. Liked the arrangements and playing. I enjoy Miles’ muted trumpet sound. It almost sounds like he’s playing two notes at once when he first comes in on Autumn Leaves. Overall though, it isn’t something I feel compelled to own. Not enough there to hold my interest - for whatever reason. That isn’t by any means a comment about the quality of the music.  Regret not to being able to respond to your suggestion with greater enthusiasm.  Do appreciate your patience, interest and sharing.

Frogman - I probably could have been a little more diplomatic and less dismissive by choosing another word than "noodling". I absolutely DO appreciate some music requires more effort to enter. But for me, with that sort of music, it seems to leave a little seed behind that draws me back. No sense of that with the first 3 tracks on Pilgrimage. They just had me wondering "Why? What’s the point?" Maybe I was tired during that audition. Anyway, as mentioned, I’ll try going back. Tumbleweed did seem to be more accessible.

I’m playing that S/T Michael Brecker you posted a link to. "Choices" is up now...3/7 from The Cult of Michael Brecker playlist. This track I am liking. However the opening of Syzygy induced that same "What the heck?!" reaction as Pilgrimage. "Dude, I know you can play! Do you have to beat me over the head with it?" Less would be more, I think. My Bro in Law has talked about "musician’s music". In fact I remember him bringing over a Brecker Bros. LP way way long time ago. Think that’s the way he referred to that LP. Maybe that’s the case for Pilgrimage. I acknowledge Brecker’s technical excellence (even though I’m not adequately trained to fully understand it).  Don’t always connect emotionally with what he is doing. On the other hand Tales from the Hudson works very well and this S/T debut has promise.  Pretty certain I’ll revisit his debut sooner rather than later.  Thanks to you too for the patience and sharing.

We are the music we like; as I stated previously, it began when we first wiggled our little buns to the music we liked; blues, rock, pop, or even Blue Grass.

Jazz is a language that speaks to some and not to others; Portuguese is the only language that seems to speak to me, even though I don't understand a single solitary word, but I like the sound of the words. Maybe jazz in general is a language that doesn't speak to you.

Now that you have sampled several different categories of jazz, you can choose which turns you on the most.


Enjoy the music.

Hey there O - Funny you should make that comment about Portuguese.  Learned a little Spanish.  Grew up around Italian.  For various reasons been exposed in the last few years to (Brazilian) Portuguese from native speakers.  I expect there's a difference from that spoken in Portugual proper, never the less, it has struck me as the most beautiful sounding language - and like you, I understand none of it.    

"...jazz in general is a language that doesn't speak to you."  - broadly speaking, that might be the case, but I'll continue to look for the exceptions that do.  

Turning the tables a bit, what's your reaction to Brecker's African Skies?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCOAvvumyWg

@orpheus10 Based on your post above, I recommend you listen to the song, "Sing in Portuguese" by Randy Stonehill on the "Wonderama" album (1992). It is a song for his grandmother, who was Portuguese, and it is hard not to like--although nothing close to jazz.
Regarding "Somethin' Else" I would add my voice to those that thoroughly enjoy this record. I own it as both a redbook CD (RBCD) and SACD. It is one of the few SACDs that I find rewardingly worth the SACD price paid for the difference between the RBCD and the SACD. There is absolutely nothing wrong with my RBCD version; the Analogue Productions SACD on my system simply sounds better to me. I consider Adderley's version of "Autumn Leaves" my favorite rendition of that jazz standard, which many artists have covered. "Alison's Uncle aka Bangoon" is also contained on my SACD (might be on others' RBCDs too). It is a terrific tune. According to Michael Cuscuna in the SACD liner notes, "In the early '80s, when I discovered an unissued tune from Cannonball Adderley's "Somethin' Else" album, I contacted the woman who handled publishing for Cannonball and Nat Adderley. She couldn't find a trace of music for the piece, but assumed that it must have been written by Nat Adderley since Cannonball didn't write very much. Because Nat's daughter was born on the exact day of the recording session, she gave it the title, "Alison's Uncle" (meaning Cannonball). And that is how it initially came out. Years later someone with keen ears pulled our coats to the fact that it was actually "Bangoon" written by Hank Jones and previously recorded by both Donald Byrd and Gigi Gryce." I guess that explains the absence of the music in the Adderley publishing archives....    

The Beatles- Sgt Pepper 50th edition.

@jafant What is your assessment compared to earlier versions I'm guessing you own?

^^Hard for him to say listening in a truck. ;)

I bought the 50th anniversary and own the last gen digital master and also original US pressing and I like the soundstage of the 50th the best (centered vocals vs extreme L/R panning). Ringo's drums (especially snare) are clearer and more dynamic as well.  No downsides to the 50th compared to the others to my ears. Worth buying to me.

Dave

Asterwart, that LP started life in the top percentile of jazz albums, and there's not a cut on it that I don't like; they all have different grooves.

"Bangoon" isn't on the LP, maybe they got it on you tube. I'm with you on "Autumn leaves", that one is tops in my book.

Me and Randy have something in common, we both like songs sung in Portuguese, although neither of us understand a single solitary word. I found that song he sang for his grandmother.

BTW you will find "Somethin Else" in just about every aficionado's collection.

"Somethin Else" was the subject of heavy debate here in this thread about two years or so ago. For anyone interested it might be worth searching the thread’s "archives" for some of that commentary. One of the points of contention was whether "Somethin Else" was a "better" or more important record than "Kind Of Blue" as some asserted. As I recall I was a lone voice with my opinion that, while it is a great record, it was not a particularly influential record the way that KOB was. I also recall that it seemed that there was an unfortunate bias against KOB simply because of the fact that it is an audiophile favorite.....those pesky audiophiles 😎. I like "Somethin Else" a lot and it is a classic. I do have a couple of thoughts about it; one that was also controversial during that previous discussion. First, imo, I think it really is Miles’ date more so than Cannonball’s eventhough Cannon is the "leader". Cannonball was a sideman in Miles’ band and I can’t imagine Miles taking a back seat to one of his sidemen. The proof is in the pudding and as great as Cannonball sounds on the record, to me it is obvious that he is playing with less exuberance than usual and accommodating Miles’ more sparse and introspective style; not a negative and just an observation. My only "issue" with the music is also a personal one. I have never really liked Art Blakey very much as a sideman. His drumming style is a little laid back, almost a little lazy, to my ears. Again, not necessarily a negative, but it might explain Ghosthouse’s reaction to the record. It should also be noted that the title tune is a Miles composition. Definitely one to have in one’s collection.

I'm going to cover the albums that would be in the average Aficionado's collection. When You went over to share a glass of wine and some music, you would most likely find these albums available for listening and discussion.

I purchased this album when it came out; it was so different that in addition to who is that, more conservative aficionados were asking "What is that"? on some of the cuts, like "Bird Calls" for example. Charles Mingus was one of the most unique jazz musicians of his time.



      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eVeZUx7cB0&list=PLG6ZYx25JDSY-tKnrFlLL_RppgeyeG-cD


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC5NPGaRLXk&list=PLG6ZYx25JDSY-tKnrFlLL_RppgeyeG-cD&index=7


"Fables of Faubus" is my favorite cut on this fine LP.



Enjoy the music.

Hello again Orpheus -
So the album is Mingus’ "Ah Um"?

Andy Summers did an album of Mingus’ music called, "Peggy’s Blue Sky Light". Didn’t cover "Better Get Hit in Your Soul" but he did cover
Goodby Pork Pie Hat and Boogie Stop Shuffle from Ah Um. In addition, Fables of Faubus appears as a bonus track on his Earth + Sky.

Would have posted Summers’ version of Better Get Hit but couldn’t find one (nor of Fables) on You Tube. Instead, here is his version of Boogie Stop Shuffle. Actually the whole of Blue Skylight is at the 2nd link.

Wonder what you will think of these more contemporary "takes".

Still interested too in your thoughts on Brecker’s "African Skies", by the way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_dD9W7liwA&index=1&list=PLQ4IOTdzCC4cywUvFGbWDKBcWf8GLgndt&...

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQ4IOTdzCC4cywUvFGbWDKBcWf8GLgndt

What's up with the alternate spellings for "Better Get It?"  is it Git Hit??

Ghosthouse, I noticed you didn't mention what you thought about those two Mingus cuts. They both contain some fantastic jazz, and I have come to the conclusion that you didn't hear it.

I don't think it's necessary to make an effort to hear and listen to good jazz. If you didn't hear it, forget it; it's not your cup of tea. You once said that was the case with "jazz jazz". One should not have to make an effort to enjoy music, and I could very well live without "new jazz".


You asked me about Michael Breker's, "Syzygy" and it sounds like it's spelt; we begin with "noodling" as you described it; although the rest of the crew is just fine, and the tune gets better as it progresses.



"Boogie Stop Shuffle"; the lead off sounds like a "Rock" guitar and certainly doesn't have the feel of the original "Boogie Stop Shuffle". Since this is "new jazz", I'm not the one who can give a critical appraisal; although halfway through it gets interesting.

From my point of view, these musicians would be better off without that tribute thing where they include another well known musician, unless they felt they could capture the essence of the other musician.

"Weird Nightmare" is interesting, and it might be capturing the essence of that tune. Mingus can be very complex at times, and I would have to do a lot of listening to grade Andy Summers on this album. He's got a host of musicians unknown to me on this album.

I will have to first listen to Mingus, and come back to "Peggy's Blue Sky light", and let you know whether or not Andy Summers succeeded. Without a doubt I will have to listen to this on the big rig, it's not sounding too good on this one.

O - I DID sample the Mingus Git It & Fables. That’s how I knew to reference the Andy Summers. But yes, in terms of "did it rock my world?" (to use that cliche)....No. Even so, I can hear how radical that Mingus LP must have been when it came out vs the other jazz jazz of the day; I do prefer Fables more than Git It in that respect. Reading about it, Ah Um is certainly held in high regard. According to Wikipedia, "Mingus Ah Um was one of fifty recordings chosen by the Library of Congress to be added to the National Recording Registry....".

I’m guessing you and I are separated taste-wise by more of a cultural divide than I at first realized. That divide, as you have mentioned several times, reflects the times we grew up in. The jazz jazz you enjoy, I often find lacking in melodic or rhythmic interest; it just seems "light" to me - thinking about Somethin’ Else (or even, Git It) as examples. I know that’s "heresy"; and I am NOT talking "light" as in light jazz.

BUT I still greatly appreciate learning about these historic jazz albums. It’s like visiting a great art museum for jazz. We all don’t respond in the same way to every style of art that’s on display. I might prefer Flemish painters and not like Expressionism at all. But you won’t hear me arguing Expressionist art shouldn’t be in the museum. I just won’t be in the gift shop later buying a print of one of those pieces.

As far as the Brecker, Syzygy was Frogman’s recommendation and off Brecker’s self-titled debut album as leader. That’s a tough listen too...like what I heard on Pilgrimage’s first few tracks. African Skies is off his Tales from the Hudson. African Skies sounds like JAZZ JAZZ to me and I really like it. It’s got a strong melody that is worked in an interesting way, great rhythmic drive and excellent solos; a varied aural texture. Not boring at all. I still want to know what you think about it. Here’s a link again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvFVxU3j620&ab_channel=strumaus

Brecker seems like a force of nature to me. He DOES remind me of Coltrane in that way. Listen to JC’s. soloing on One Down, One Up. A little overwhelming and almost too much to take in. I’m hardly any kind of expert on him but the Brecker I’ve enjoyed so far has been when he is grounded and balanced in a larger ensemble (like on that Tales from the Hudson recording).

Gotta run. Ciao.

Ghosthouse, at last, something I don't have to "pontificate" over; plain and simple; I like it and what "all" of the artists are doing as well; Michael Brecker-Tales From The Hudson -African Skies.

Brecker left out his "noodling", and he's blowing in fine form. McCoy Tyner is very much himself; I can't think of a new word at the moment, but it would amount to more "Tyneresque"; Trane fanatics know what I'm trying to say. Plus I like the African flavor.


Mingus is a lot about "culture"; he's a painter, and when you don't know the culture, you can't see the picture.


Enjoy the music.

Ghosthouse, St. Louis has a fantastic art museum; when I took my son, (who was a little tyke at the time) to infuse some culture in the kid, I got lost in the paintings, and almost lost my little tyke. (The way the guards acted, those paintings must have been worth a few bucks)

Maybe I should go again and we can compare art to music?

O - If you've not been in a while, a good time to go back!  Your son might enjoy it too (and now, less likely to get lost, I'd expect).  Would happily join if I lived closer.  Visiting art museums is a favorite thing to do when traveling.  

I see the St Louis Museum of Art has a very nice website.  

Not intended to sway anyone's point of view; after all, we all like what we like and as O-10 pointed out recently we all grow into genres and appreciation of their uniqueness and different layers.

"Noodling" is defined as "aimless musical improvisation".  Now, Michael Brecker's opening to the tune "Sysygy" may sound to some as noodling; but it is anything but.  Brecker was the kind improviser that never noodled a single note in his career; he was an extremely purposeful improviser.  The extended improvisation in the opening of the tune was a deliberate element of the composition.  Some may not like or appreciate this kind of improvisation without the harmonic underpinning (comfort?) of the harmony instruments in the rhythm section, but it is a deliberate element of the composition which creates musical tension followed by the release of the tension when the harmony instruments come in.  A conceptual choice....improvisation BEFORE the statement of the melody.  Moreover, that improvisation sticks to the harmonic changes of the tune.  Hardly an aimless exercise.  Again, any one of us may not like it, but I believe there is value in, at least, acknowledging the artist's intent and not being dismissive of the artist's vision.  

This may be of interest:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TlEAl3jdn6o

Frogman - I might not like Syzygy any more after reading your explanation (the intro, anyway) but now at least I have a better sense of what’s going on there. Very helpful discussion. Opens a little window that might also illuminate pieces other than Syzygy. Thanks.

Yes, that intro...it surely do create tension! :-)

Frogman, I noticed all the comments were made by musicians. When I went to see "Trane" live, the professional musician at the table was the only person out of five who knew exactly what Trane was doing, when according to the rest of us he went to the seventh galaxy. (that musician is still with us and performing)

Absolutely nothing against the greatness of "John Coletrane", but it has been stated by those of us who are not musicians, that "Trane" had a tendency to "experiment", travel to unknown galaxies during his performances. I didn't understand it then, and I wouldn't understand it now; when musicians travel to parts unknown, it's a musician thing.

I'm listening to pilgrimage now, and it isn't inaccessible, it's quite listenable. While I liked all of those musicians, Herby Hancock might be the only one who never lost me; (not referring to this record, but down through the years) "Pilgrimage" is a record I'll have to get. When ever the music gets anywhere near what was referred to as "free blowing" or "loft jazz" I was lost. There is a slim line between improvisation, and too far out; when the musicians speed is faster than his ideas, that's when one of us is lost.

Sometime the links require a degree of listening that I don't give them; that means I should listen to them at a better time.

Ghosthouse, that was thirty years ago when me and the little tyke were at the art museum. I would certainly like to go again, but did you see the steps in front of the museum. The library is even worse, the steps to the first floor are at least three stories high.

If you're ever in St. Louis, the price is right (free), but if your legs aren't up to it, ( mine aren't)  don't even think about it, that's a big place.

O-10, glad you are enjoying "Pilgrinage"; there is a lot to like there and I agree it is accessible.  Speaking for myself, I know that there was a time when I would not have thought so.  We all grow as listeners if we let it happen.  Sometimes we don't even realize that it is happening.  I hope that I am being neither presumptuous nor am taking too many liberties when I say that over the course of the life of this thread we all have grown as listeners.  You make some good points, but I would say this and none of it is intended as criticism or disrespect of anyone.  It is a "musician thing" only to a degree.  What I mean is I know and have known non-musicians who understand those "galaxies" and "parts unknown" very well; believe or not, better than some "musicians" that I have known.  Imo, it is a matter of wanting to understand and not put up our own roadblocks to understanding.  However, for some listeners that is a kind of "work" or effort.  Some of us want to do that and others don't.  A personal call and not applicable to everyone.  Also, assuming that what the player is doing is not, in fact, "noodling" (aka bulls&!+) I don't think that it is that "musician's speed is faster than his ideas"; it is instead that the musician's ideas are faster than the listener's speed.  You are quite right, there are plenty of bulls$!+ers out there, but I don't think that Trane (or Brecker) were two of them.

Frogman, time, time and time again, the same thing has been said about "Trane"; he goes to galaxies out in the far reaches of the universe. I believe musicians are impressed by the complexity of what he's playing, while people like me are saying; "But it don't sound like squat".

Since "Trane" is one of the greatest musicians who ever lived, that statement is "Blasphemy". No matter who is blowing, I divide the music into two categories; this sound good, that don't.

O-10, musicians are not impressed by the complexity, they are impressed by the incredibly high level of the MUSIC he is making. The person who first introduced me to Trane decades ago was not a musician; he was a jazz fan and loved Trane’s music, including music from his "out" period.

Thanks for the Hal Galper clips, acman3!  Hadn't seen those and I thought I had heard just about everything by M Brecker.  Still in his twenties he had a tone that was my favorite.  It changed over the years and got rounder and darker over time; arguably more beautiful but I liked the edge that it had back then.  Good stuff!  

Gino's was packed, and if you were a man about town who went to live venues, you would have thought you were at a professional musicians convention; every local professional musician I knew from the various clubs in St. Louis was there.

There were two couples plus a professional drummer at our table, which was close enough to McCoy Tyner to clearly see the expressions on his face when he pounded the piano.

As soon as the music started, all conversation ceased; this was an audience of serious aficionados, and it was the first time St. Louis would get to see and hear John Coltrane on the Soprano Sax.

The set began with the "Trane" standards that the crowd came to hear, which were all played with extended improvisation. Every local sax man that I had ever seen was there taking it all in.

At last "My Favorite Things", the most important tune of the evening, the one that featured the Soprano Sax, which was brand new in the Winter of 63. That tune and the piercing sound of the Soprano Sax put me in a state of instant bliss; it was almost like the sound was inside my head emanating out, nothing had prepared me for this sound live.


After 15 minutes, which is longer than the recorded version, I was ready for the next tune. After 20 minutes the audience was ready for the next tune, and "Trane" was in the outer reaches of the galaxy. For an instant I saw a look of panic on McCoy Tyners face, (Trane was outward bound) Elvin Jones made eye contact with Tyner, who returned a look that said "Just hang with me".

By this time it sounded as if two different tunes were being played at the same time, while "Train" sailed past Orion's Nebula with his eyes closed in that happy place where musicians go, but he didn't take the audience with him.

"Are you sure Trane is clean" my date asked me, referring to his past bout with controlled substances.

When "Trane" opened his eyes, the look of the audience told him it was time to wrap that one up.

The only way you can hear this extended improvisation is to buy the new recorded sets of these live extended versions.

I enjoy reading your reminiscences, Orpheus.  Thanks.

Nice story, O-10; thanks for sharing. But, as concerns the point that I think is being discussed, with all due respect and not doubting what you are saying about that audience’s reaction, I think you are missing the point. Here’s what I mean:

That account would have been from at least 50 years ago or so, no? 50 years before that would have been about 1910. We didn’t even have jazz as we know it then. The point is that 50 years is an eternity in the arts and a great deal changes in 50 years, including audiences’ tastes and openness to more adventurous or challenging music. Can you imagine how audiences would have reacted to be-bop, not to mention hard-bop or beyond in 1910? Not too well. The audience that you were part of that night had never heard anything like that before. Well before the period in Trane’s career that we are talking about many many MUSICIANS thought that what Trane was playing was bs because it was so different and unconventional and that included records like Blue Train, a record now considered to be mainstream. Swing tenor players did not understand what Trane was doing and were highly critical of him. All that changed with time. Never mind my own personal experiences of the non-musicians who like Trane’s intergalactic travels on recordings, I listen to those live recordings and what I hear when the space ship lands back on earth is a lot of applause from the audience; clearly there were many audiences who liked what they heard. Besides, just what is the point of all this? Some listeners like or appreciate late period Trane and some don’t; and they don’t have to be musicians to like it. That’s all.   Thanks again for the nice personal account.

Some interesting comments from Tyner himself about his time with Trane:

https://jerryjazzmusician.com/2001/11/mccoy-tyner-talks-about-john-coltrane-and-the-recording-of-a-l...

Enhoyed the McCoy Tyner interview very much, Frogman. Thanks. (BTW - What a gracious, well spoken individual he seems.)

A while ago I started Bill Cole’s book on Coltrane but got bogged down with some of the music transcriptions. Need to get back to reading that.

"...more light, more light, more light...."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xk8x4bV8Mc&ab_channel=GeoffreyPenalty