Jazz for aficionados
Hey Frogman - just dropped by as providence would have it. Saw your 12PM post w/that Larry Young link. I will check it out. Yes...the Hammond "expert" I was citing in that other thread was my brother in law. A gifted individual (and I don't use that term frivolously). I might well share your clip with him. Peace to all posting here. |
PS - @frogman Your link is to the full Unity by LY. A lot to digest! Nothing I was familiar with (what's new there?). Found it on Tidal. Funny, the version they have sounds like vinyl...keep hearing repeated ticks and pops. This is interesting stuff. Zoltan's up. Haven't a clue why it works. No melody to speak of (quoting Neil Finn, "Try Whistling This") but it hangs together. Good rhythmic drive. Looked Unity up on Wikipedia it's 50 years old (51) but sounds modern. I'll keep listening until my dilettante brain gets bored. Have made it to Moontrane now. The music so far is accessible but with enough jagged edges to hold my attention. The solos have been EXCELLENT. I like the brisk (tempi?). I'll have to see if my b in l knows the recording and what he thinks. Maybe the track "If" would be a good one to send him. Ciao. Thanks for the music recommendation. |
PPS - @frogman Comments from my brother in law re the Larry Young recording... "What a great Hammond player. I hear the Jimmy Smith influence in his playing but a bit more modern approach in his chording. The organ sound he is using is the classic Jimmy Smith Hammond/Leslie setting. I attached a photo of those settings on the organ. [Almost] Forgot to mention the drawbar settings. It’s the first three drawbars fully out on the upper manual (second group of nine). You can see it in the main picture of the organ." I posted the pictures he sent to my systems page. If you are interested, this link should take you to it (Mostly Demos, Used & B-stock by ghosthouse in Budget Minded). https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/2178 |
Glad you and your bro in law liked the Larry Young recording, Ghosthouse. His description of his playing is exactly right. One of the things that is remarkable about that record, besides the outstanding soloing that you pointed out, is the amazing groove a two man rhythm section can generate. Elvin Jones is always amazing, and drummers' ability to play independent rhythms with hands and feet is well recognized, but I am always amazed by the way a good Hammond player can also play bass lines with his feet. Thanks for the link. |
Frogman - At the risk of alienating others (and I hope this doesn't), I do enjoy getting into the "meat" of what makes a performance superior or even just more enjoyable vs another. Coming from more of a rock listening orientation a lot of the jazz standard repertoire bores the sh... heck out of me. That's probably heresy 'round these here parts and I don't say it with any kind of superiority, in fact it probably reflects some sort of deficiency. BUT that Unity recording was not boring at all. I listened to the whole thing straight through and a couple of tracks twice. Looking forward to trying it on again later today. See if the attraction is still there. All this to say, I suspect it is "the amazing groove a two man rhythm section can generate" that's a huge part of why it is so engaging to me. Again, thanks for introducing me to this recording. |
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You’re welcome . Just what the Brits call a simple home truth . If the jazz standards are boring to you, in musical terms, it would be hard to make a more banal statement . I don’t make these general statements to be funny or a smart-ass, nor do I enjoy it . I may well be the only well educated person you will ever encounter that was of legal age before rock existed , I know what I am talking about . If the truth offends you it might be a good thing . |
Well... speaking for myself, sometimes my crotch informs my soul...and vice versa. Here’s a musical "little blue pill": https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nuYeeMcyCIk |
Who said anything about being offended? Your contribution was simply not helpful, trading as it does in hackneyed stereotype. You also misrepresent what I said (I don’t find the entirety of jazz standards boring) and miss the point of my comment to Frogman on a possible reason why that Unity recording was NOT boring to me. |
It’s OK to be entertained but the object is to learn to see/hear the truth in beauty and make it yours . You have no way to know if its a stereotype or not , you have no means to compare and contrast. The very thought comes from others who want to make you forever a part of a mass mind which benefits them and degrades you . I didn’t miss your point . |
Interesting that the subject of "wisdom" should come up; and, in this context. I just heard this on the wonderful WBGO Newark on my to way to rehearse Massenet (talk about beauty and truth!). The latest from the great Eddie Palmieri, perhaps the greatest living Latin-Jazz musician. New recording titled "Sabiduria"/"Wisdom". If one watches a great salsa dancer, it all happens from the waist down; mostly....the crotch. The title cut (second clip here) is what I heard and it knocked me out. Ronnie Cuber on baritone, David Spinoza, guitar, Bernard Purdie and other great players. Thought provoking comments previously all the way around about wisdom, truth and beauty. I’ll be sixty in a couple of months and I just hope I don’t ever stop being able to see/hear the truth in this music: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=crGXPI1fO4w https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tpgC5dDra_A |
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ghosthouse, I did presume you were under 80 which is about as young as you would have to be to have the experiential knowledge required to make any meaningful fore and after comparison . I don’t feel I am any smarter or better than you are , I do know that I am older and wiser which is as it should be and is no credit to me . |
Has "Tutu" been discussed on Jazz Aficionados? Listening to it for the first time now via Tidal. Curious what aficionado opinions are on this "latter phase Miles" album (i.e., Miles’ performance anyway, even if much of it not his own writing). Some tracks have interesting textures and atmosphere. Occasionally, beautiful melodies (themes?) appear but they don’t seem to get deep improvisational development. Maybe that wasn’t an objective of the recording sessions. Lots of electronics. Lots. Drum machine overkill in places. One thoroughly objectionable track (to me) is the Scritti Politti composition "Perfect Way" though Miles plays a remarkable solo in it (ever on the verge of being swallowed by "effects", unfortunately). I’m certainly no Miles expert but what strikes me about his solos is how they can sound economical - almost minimalist. Yet when I really concentrate on some of his runs, they’re very complex. I guess that’s Miles the Zen Master...making the complex appear simple. While I can understand the reaction of "jazz purists" to Tutu, I think the whole does hang together and has an integrity about it 30 years after the fact. Would be interesting to hear a stripped down, "unplugged" version. That might indeed be what Marcus Miller accomplished in the 2010 "Tutu Revisited" concert tour referenced in Wiki. Looking forward to others’ comments. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiIdeHm5Xnc&ab_channel=FrancescoLombardo |
I think the key to understanding Miles is found in a basic premise; a premise that is controversial for many listeners and which is at the heart of a lot of the "bruha" (to quote O-10) on this thread. This basic premise says that the artistic success of any music is determined by how well it expresses or represents the time of its creation; not as compared to an aesthetic or strict standard of excellence from the past. Moreover, whether we like what any music is saying about the time of its creation or not is besides the point. Personally, I am of two minds about the validity of this premise since certain standards are timeless; but, I have to acknowledge the "purity" of this premise and I see a basic and pointless conflict in always applying standards that only go back in time. Time moves forward; whether we like it or not. Miles was the quintessential example of this premise and, by that standard, the album "Tutu" is a success. Considered by some his last great record it is a great example of much of what was going on at the time with the use of electronics and atmospheric textures. His trumpet playing is in really good form (timeless standard) whether we like what he is playing or not. Whether the music is "jazz" or not is also besides the point. I personally don't think it is and the fact that Miles used to play jazz as most of us know it means absolutely nothing in this context and shouldn't influence how we judge this music, imo. He was never a slave to the past and always felt his mission was to represent the present and, if anything, nudge it forward not backwards. Still, and accuse me of looking backwards, but, for me, 60's Miles is still the pinnacle of his career and represents the best balance between the timeless standards and the new. Ghosthouse, your comments about the economy in Miles' playing is spot on. "Its not the notes you play, but the notes you don't play" - Miles Davis "You have to know 400 notes that you can play, then pick the right four." - Miles Davis |
@frogman Can't afford at the moment the time to adequately reply to your well constructed and well written post about Tutu. Must be brief at the risk of leaving some things out (or, at least, for later). 1) re your "basic premise" intro - always good to identify underlying assumptions. Nothing "BASIC" (as in simple) about this but basic as in foundational - YES. 2) Tutu is not jazz - not that I can offer a technically valid description of what Jazz IS but I did have the same sense listening to it. Too scripted maybe? Not enough improvisational space? Even if the recording ain't jazz, I can imagine those pieces serving as great jumping off points for improv in concert. 3) Mile's playing in really good form - glad you thought so. I did too (though I cannot claim to be any sort of expert on him) and appreciate your confirmation. I would have appreciated more playing without the mute; would have added some more "air" or another color to the proceedings. BTW - listen to his soloing around the middle of that Perfect Way track and then again just a few seconds before it ends. Gems. 4) Notes you play vs notes you don't play - I heard a very similar quote attributed to BB King. I've also read Miles asked Coltrane at some point "Why you have to play so long?" (or words to that effect). If it wasn't "...play so long?" it was "...play so many notes?" Those two figures make a good pairing for a compare and contrast essay! I expect my comment about Miles' economy was not arrived at independently but influenced by things I've read before (though I wasn't actively conscious of them while listening). |
I can't think of any Ellington recording that is not worth having. I have several of these recordings on various other early Ellington releases or compilations and the music is fantastic and are great examples of where jazz was at, at this early stage. I can't speak to the sound quality of these particular reissues and some of the ones I have are not particularly great in that regard; but, again, the music is great. I love this style of both solo and ensemble playing. From a technical standpoint the playing has a very different stylistic feel (duh!) from most of the jazz discussed to date on this thread since the focus here has been primarily on "modern" jazz. The style may seem "quaint" to some with its much heavier use of vibrato by the winds and brass and an overall much "jumpier" (for lack of better term) swing feel than in later periods. Great tunes evocative of that era. Let us know what you think. |
Probably my favorite tenor saxophone tone of all the great tenor players that there have been. Bluesy with a wonderful vocal quality in his use of inflections and economical vibrato. Stanley Turrentine had a way with solo that really told a story with music. Modern enough in concept, but rooted in the traditional and the blues. Great record: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL37BEB0C7D6F3EFF4&v=vHl2vRzQTlk |
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I find it sad that nobody seems to pay any attention to Anita O'Day. She still is one of the greatest jazz singers . I've heard her called the Basie of singers, no one had a better beat than her. Her Verve LP UMV2550 " Anita O'Day at Mister Kelly's"is the best sounding jazz vocal LP I ever heard . Down to about 300 jazz LP's and that would be the very last to go . |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNEBas4WCfQ&ab_channel=SchooloftheArts-Topic Hello? Anybody out there?? |
Ghosthouse, here's a very good description; A jazz fusion supergroup comprising bassist John Pattatucci, keyboardist T Lavitz, drummer Dave Weckl, electric violinist Jerry Goodman, and guitarists Frank Gambale and Steve Morse. School of the Arts throws everything into the pot: jazz, rock, blues, country, Latin, and classical, but this wide-ranging eclecticism works remarkably well. This is due primarily to the staggering technical expertise of the musicians involved. While there's no shortage of chops (as amply demonstrated on the solo passages on the tunes "On Fire" and "Fairweather Green," for example), there's also an impressive interplay and sympathy, making SCHOOL OF THE ARTS a fusion lover's dream come true. They remind me of Jean Luc Ponty's group in a super groove. Enjoy the music. |
In regard to the bigger questions that have consistently been raised on this thread, such as old jazz VS new jazz, I think each individual will have to answer that question for themselves. With me, it's all music, and the "old stuff" that's locked in a vault, shall remain there; any new music does not necessarily have to fall into a "genre", but can fall into one of two categories; "like", and "don't like". Enjoy the music. |
O - Yes - I had read that description somewhere (Amazon?). Didn't want to prejudice the game by advertising it as a "fusion" clip. The technical proficiency of the musicians in/on School of the Arts is very high. I personally am taken with Terry Lavitz piano work. He's new to me (I never followed the Dixie Dregs). I also like what Jerry Goodman brings and the fact the guitars are acoustic. This SotA recording is "organic" sounding in the absence of a less overused description and musical. Not a "wood chopper's ball" as can sometimes be the case in fusion. BUT the big question is which of those two categories does it fall in for you? |
http://www.jazzwisemagazine.com/pages/jazz-album-reviews/11585-the-100-jazz-albums-that-shook-the-wo... Apologies if this is a repeat/old news. Updated Sept 2016. Seemed an interesting piece, whether or not you agree with their list. |
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Most of those 100 albums that shook the world are in my collection; it's a collection that goes back to just before Clifford Brown was killed in an automobile accident, meaning that's when I began to collect jazz LP's. You could not find a better place to start a jazz collection than selecting from that list. Enjoy the music. |
O - my question about which of the two categories School of the Arts fell in for you was simply about whether you liked it or not. Sounds like you do like it. Appreciate the vote of confidence on that 100 Jazz LP list. I was surprised how many I was at least somewhat familiar with. There's hope yet :-) |
Welcome back, O-10. Hope all is well. Ghosthouse, I like the "School Of The Arts" clip, thanks. I like it for reasons that don't always come into play for me when I listen to something. You mention T Lavitz. Like you, I have always liked his playing. You may find a little background of interest: First, I think I posted something by The Dregs a while back around the time that you first started posting on the thread. I think I posted it to get your reaction to Steve Morse, but I don't remember if you commented on the clip. I knew T Lavitz when we were both attending the University of Miami School of Music. He was a saxophone student and piano was a secondary interest; although his talent on piano was obvious. He later decided to concentrate on the piano. Some of the original members (not Lavitz) of what was then the University of Miami "Rock Ensemble" went on to found The Dixie Dregs. T Lavitz was an extraordinarily talented guy with a very wide musical range. "School Of The Arts" was unfortunately one of his last projects. That project is undoubtedly a fusion project attitude-wise; with the interesting twist, as you point out, that most of the instruments are acoustic. One of the reasons I find it interesting and like it (with some qualifications) is that I like it even though it flies in the face of some of the things that are usually requirements for my liking music and what would normally be needed for music to sound "organic" as you say. First, T Lavitz wrote all the music....ALL THE MUSIC....EVERY NOTE, including the solos. It was all through-composed. Beyond that, the musicians were not only never in the same room, but were in different parts of the country and in this time of file sharing and home studios they each performed their respective parts alone and as written and sent to them by Lavitz. One could say that, eventhough these are virtuoso players, the last bit of musician interaction is not there compared to other projects; interaction that results in more spontaneity and deeper grooves, but it's pretty darn good in those regards and it's the concept that carries the day in my opinion. High energy stuff with lots of twists and turns performed at, as you say, a very high level of proficiency. Lavitz was a very interesting guy who was a jazz player with a rock player's attitude. It might also be interesting to note that his previous (I think) band was called "Jazz Is Dead". |
Hello Frogman. That is some VERY interesting background on SofA and Terry Lavitz. SofA as a recording did not strike me like the usual fusion fare - though it is clearly fusion. I’d be interested in reading more about your personal reasons for liking it. Feel free to PM me if you are concerned about taking up space here. I had no idea TL wrote all the compositions...even the solos OR that the recording wasn’t done in a single studio/group setting. No offense intended but how did you learn this? On balance those aspects might account for its more ("tempered"?) feel...a good thing, in my mind. I wonder about the reasoning behind doing things that way. (Conflicting schedules is understandable for some of it.) It also makes me wonder about how fantastic hearing them live would have been assuming space allowed for improvisation in that setting. Either way, my appreciation of TL’s talents went up several notches. I’ll see if I can find your previous posts about the Dregs. I’m not recalling it, although I do know the Steve Morse name and maybe his sound. Some of these guys, TOO MANY NOTES!. Maybe wrong pinning that on Morse, if not fusion guitarists as a stereotype. I’m no expert on him but to my sensibilities, Gambale is generally pretty tasteful. I did read the Wiki entry on Lavitz, so knew his connection with the Dregs...at several different times, apparently. Also heard of his "Jazz Is Dead" outfit. Love the humor. Need to check that out. Not a huge Deadhead (not even a small one) but Skull & Roses, Workingman’s Dead & American Beauty ARE excellent. If you don’t know it, stumbled onto an old John Mayall recording...Jazz Blues Fusion Live in Boston & New York. 1971. A very good live recording...music, musicianship and sound quality. Never heard of him previously but a Freddy Robinson (later, Abu Talib) is lead guitar. Talk about tasteful. Very very nice stuff. Funny coincidence is that my bro-in-law (studio, Hammond organ, musician) had met TL years ago. Leant him a keyboard. Not the same as going to school with the guy of course. Ciao |
Thanks 0-10. No matter if Anita sang with the greatest band in the land or some pick-up guys , she did what only the greatest can do , leaving you feeling there was no other way the song could be sung . Not the greatest voice ever but leaves you feeling like it was because she used it in the most honest way imaginable . |
Ghosthouse, listen to a guy playing trumpet on that John Mayall’s album. It is Blue Mitchell, he ’comes’ from this (jazz) side of forum... But if you like that kind music (blues, with some great playing too), here is another album that you may find interesting. I believe that I have posted it before (Mayall too), but never mind. Its a good music and in my defence I can say that lots of jazz greats are playing on it too... Its legendary T Bone Walker, album is ’Very Rare’, from 1973....participatng artists include: Al Cohn, Dizzy,Jon Faddis, David Fathead Newman,Herbie Mann, Gerry Mulliagan, Zoot Simms...proudeced by Leiber and Stoller.... https://youtu.be/ym__EtVfSQQ https://youtu.be/IUbwHrCuil8 https://youtu.be/cC-mMVku5Yw https://youtu.be/Mc4abSHRhEc https://youtu.be/QRzawYcbmJo There is album of ’Jazz at the philharmonic from 1966, where he also plays, got that one too, its even better...here is the link... https://youtu.be/pFqK6PBq-hA Of course, there are lot more great albums, both of Mayall and Walker, but these ones are sort of ’conected’ with jazz or jazz musicians, to say at least.... could not resist, here is another one...'just' the blues...T bone and Shaky Jake Harris... https://youtu.be/NuGW-Ug94Jo |
Well guys, now that we have made a distinction in jazz, called "jazz-jazz", can we make some distinctions in "Blues". I'm not partial to "Delta Blues"; the reason I mention that is because I think we should have a vague definition of everyone's likes and dislikes. While the blues in jazz is often spoke of, it's not well defined; there seems to be some ambiguity when talking about "The Blues"; would anyone care to chime in on that? |
Ghosthouse, no offense taken. The musician's community is a pretty small one. Musicians that know each other and have any kind of history together know and follow what each other is doing musically in conversation or active research. That is why I knew about the details of the SOTA project. The particulars about that project that I described, and one of the reasons that it is interesting to me, make it a particularly interesting topic of coversation. I would be surprised if you couldn't find some references to all that on line. |
@alexatpos I did have a vague notion that Blue Mitchell had more of jazz background. I guess the line between blues and jazz can get quite blurry. Thank you for all those T-Bone Walker links. I checked them out. A couple of the songs were familiar...whether I’d heard his version or covers (more likely) years later...e.g., Last Clean Shirt. The clip I liked best was definitely Jazz at the Philharmonic. (Going to Chicago another familiar one). That’s quite a backing band T-Bone is working with. That hollow body of his is seems huge. Interesting way he has of holding it. Thanks for sharing. Orpheus - I’ll be reading with interest replies to your "throw down" :-) about the Blues! Only thing I’m going to chime in with (think of this like a course from Father Guido Sarducci’s Five Minute University) is... 1. Delta (Acoustic/Country-derived) Blues (Clarksdale, MS; Sonhouse & Robert Johnson) >> 2. Electric Blues (Chicago, Detroit; Muddy Waters & Howlin’ Wolf) >> 3. British Invasion (Yardbirds & Mayall’s Bluesbreakers...esp., Beck, Clapton, Green & Page). But domestically, can’t ignore Paul Butterfield & Mike Bloomfield. It’s this 3rd gen iteration of the blues as played by a lot of Brits (don't forget the Rolling Stones) that introduced me and shaped my tastes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpG3ck9E1qE&ab_channel=ThePaulButterfieldBluesBand-Topic |
It's too bad Rok is not still around, I considered him the authority in our circle on "The Blues". Ghosthouse, with the Blues, you have to go by what you hear, instead of what you read. Roc said almost all singing Blues is Delta Blues, and he was right, because if you listen, so much of it is the same music with different words. I imagine what you have posted is from some "authority" who probably knows less about the Blues than you. The people most responsible for "Guitar Blues", yelling, howling, screaming, crying blues, could, neither read nor write, and they go way back. If we're going to talk about the blues, we should have a better definition of what we're talking about. Enjoy the music, and I guess that includes, "Da Blues". |
Blues, Jazz, Fusion; what shall it be? You guys decide. Here's a CD by Jean Luc Ponty that vaguely reminded me of "School of the Arts" but this is fusion all the way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTC-OjgwLxg&list=PLcsnGklehnTt-jtFIpbkieC60qy9PuSkB I suppose when it came to fusion, "The Mahavishnu Orchestra" was my favorite; https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lila%27s+dance |
Orpheus - What I wrote was a real stripped down, simplified version of the far more complex history of the blues. Written almost facetiously - though there's truth in it. The roots of the "song form" date back to early on in the last century and probably well before that. The blues absolutely derive from an oral tradition. Thank God for Alan Lomax preserving some of that. I don't find anything too profound in Rok's statement. This is well-documented music history, not the product of some "authority" pontificating in a locked, ivory tower cell somewhere. AND I was talking about what I hear(d) - my listening - that shaped a lot of my music preferences WAY before I even knew there was something called "the blues". Jazz-wise, I defer to your knowledge. Blues? I will be guided by my own lights, thank you. "...so much of it is the same music with different words." Yeah, it can be kind of formulaic (there's even a standard music theory structure for "a blues"!) but the blues don't have to always sound the same...and they DON'T. I'm inclined to think some of the sameness reflects a kind of dumbing down and catering to a mass market (maybe). Listen to enough B.B. King's Bluesville and it sometimes sounds like the same song on repeat. Regardless, it's pretty clear to me jazz offers a lot more creative options...a bigger palette and more colors in the paint box. Personal preference though? Most days I'll be picking the blues 5 to 1. |
