Jazz for aficionados
Rok, I hate when somebody misses one of my jokes, especially when it's meant for them; consequently I'll have to tell this one over again. The joke was not about the narrator of the event, but the event itself, and I asked you "Who does this remind you of" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bF5yqfaYVw Enjoy the music. |
****Frogman, you are one of the most interesting individuals I have ever encountered*** Why, thanks O-10! Re your examples: I didn't confuse anything; I simply took your comments at face value as I'm not a mind reader. Try being a bit clearer going forward if you want to avoid confusion. Anyway, I hope your day turns a little less boring. I am very intrigued by Wynton's use of cliches. Let's make things interesting. Could you please post some examples of what you mean? Specific spots in recordings of his solos? Thanks! |
I can hear a musical phrase, and when I hear it again, recognize it, but I can't tell where I heard it the first time. Another thing is when a musician is "clinical", his music doesn't flow; I think that's the "Juilliard" effect. When people have been taught precisely how to do something, that's the way they do it; maybe classical music works in that fashion, but not jazz. I have observed that when a musician has had little formal musical education, but somehow he's getting his musical message across, you only hear the part of his playing that reveals a lack of formal training. When a person goes from one extreme (a degree from Juilliard) to the other extreme, which would be no formal training but has, what I can only identify as God given talent; in jazz, it's quite possible that the person with natural talent, to sound so much better than the person with the degree from Juilliard; especially if they're playing extemporaneous hard bop. I notice you like to use the expression of "nuts and bolts" to indicate formal training, and musicians who rely on formal training sound mechanical; hence, your expression of "nuts and bolts" is quite appropriate. Enjoy the music. |
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FWIW - I won't even address this post to O-10, since he does not want to be educated. However, Frogman's modesty is showing here, and I will say what he will not. There is absolutely no way that O-10 has heard even half of the jazz that Frogman has, even if he is decades older. The very idea is ridiculous. Frogman is a PROFESSIONAL JAZZ MUSICIAN (also classical). Music is his life - he is not just your average audiophile on here who just listens to music in his spare time. He makes it - he lives it - he breathes it. He has of course listened to it and studied it all of his life, and the vast majority of his waking hours just about every single day are devoted to it. It is quite within the realm of possibility that in fact he has heard more jazz than everyone else participating in this thread put together. |
I think we all know where this is going, so in the interest of saving time and typing:, allow me: O-10's response to Learsfool: How do you know how much Jazz I have heard. Not only do I live and breath and listen to Jazz, I eat it also. So there!! The Frogman: O-10, no one is questing how much Jazz you have devoured in your life time. O-10: Frogman, you are the most unique person I have ever met. The Frogman: Why thank you O-10: O-10: but you don't have any idea of what happened in Seattle. The Frogman: HUH?? O-10: Just answer the question Frogman. Answer the question. The Frogman: what question? O-10: Don't play that game with me. I have spent almost 2 years in South Korea. I don't play that Jive! The Frogman: WTF are you talking about? O-10: I am talking about the fact that I have heard 2.3 trillion bars of Jazz played. How many have you heard? Answer the question Frogman! At this point Learsfool will intervene once again. Learsfool: The Frogman is just too modest. Not only does Frogman Play, Live, Breath, make Jazz, HE INVENTED JAZZ!! And I don't wanna hear any of that Jelly Roll Crap!! The Frogman: (modestly) Thanks you Learsfool. At this point O-10 will attempt to defuse the situation by posting a clip of a Group of one legged guys from South Sudan playing Sudanese-funk Fusion by banging on their wooden legs. Lord help us. Cheers |
Best I could do. I swear I can hear their wooden legs hitting together. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aagky9IPqFU |
Did something happen while I was away? And what are those thumping sounds?...like the banging of sticks ☺️ Don’t worry Rok, take a deep breath and check this out; it’s going to OK. Here’s another for 1976. Non-fusion from one of the best and most interesting piano players that most have never heard of: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T01se2ZNnBg Back to fusion, 1976: Weather Report’s breakthrough album: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jp-cwoZWoGA Weather Report member Jaco Pastorius would forever change the way that the electric bass was played and previous ideas about what was possible on the instrument:: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-0NNA6w8Zk4 Chick Corea’s "Romantic Warrior": https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=giup9k87MMo |
I am afraid that I am not doing Return To Forever's (Chick Corea) "Romantic Warrior" justice with the lack of some commentary. This recent romp through Fusion has led to my revisiting some of these records and I have to say that this record is an absolute masterpiece of the genre. Amazing compositional values from one of the most creative minds in contemporary music (including jazz-jazz), Chick Corea. This should be approached like one approaches listening to a symphony. Elements of Baroque music can be found along with strong rock and traditional jazz fusings. Just like Kind Of Blue is often cited as possibly THE record to play for someone who has never heard jazz, this could be my pick for demonstrating the genre Fusion to the curious. I recommend listening to it beginning to end. Even if you generally don't like Fusion, give it a shot and see what you think at the end of the ride. Their last record as a band: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=giup9k87MMo |
I don't get it. But, I realize it could be me, so I read a lot of the reviews and comments on you-tube and Amazon. "Corea is a god". "This is the best record ever recorded" Yikes!!! I'm thinking, what planet are these people from. I'm thinking, how can people get all that from this music, when I get nothing. Then I ran across a review on Amazon that provided a little insight. paraphrasing: It depends to a large degree on your age. He said during the formative years when he became interested in music, Fusion was Jazz. He was not aware of anything else. There was Rock, and there was Jazz(fusion). Fusion being a more 'sophisticated' form of Rock?? Bebop was no where to be heard. Several people said after being 'raised' on Fusion, they later discovered Bebop, and never looked back. As if Fusion prepared their ear for real Jazz. I say, whatever! I know the first music I ever heard with which I associated the word 'Jazz' was probably Duke Ellington, Count Basie maybe Cab Calloway.. That was the type of music my family listened to. We also listened to Church music, Broadway tunes, Blues, R&B and early R&R.. Which means, Rock was noise to my ear from day one. Still is mostly. And that includes this so-called Fusion. Everyone can't like everything, although I wish I could. My son loves Rock. That was the music he heard during his formative years. If I had known that, I would have locked him in my stereo room with Monk and Mingus going 24/7. Hindsight. Back in the day, one professional Jazz critic once said, "Young people think any instrumental music is Jazz". He may have been on to something. Romantic Warrior: For what it is, not extremely irritating. There are a few measures here and there where you could almost think it is Jazz. Cheers |
Has the final obituary been read for "fusion", or is it coming back again? I wish I had something good to say about fusion. If somebody can find something good to say about my bright yellow double knit low waist bell bottomed trousers, I'll find something good to say about fusion. They both were current at about the same time. Somehow, I'm slightly disoriented, and I think It's a result of too much fusion; that art work on the album covers is so discombobulating, plus all that space music; where do you think "Hymn To The Seventh Galaxy" came from? Fusion is surrealistic art, put to music, and when combined with intoxicants, is designed to send one to the farthest reaches of the seventh galaxy, all the way out past Orion number 9.; that's what it was good for. Now that we're back down to earth, where do we go from here? Enjoy the music. |
I'm in a "Don Cherry" mood; his music is transitional, it's the stop over you have to make before getting back to solid terra firma, down to earth jazz. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRqxQhF4LX8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNXePvT5H0s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp5mZxkeV1c Enjoy the music. |
Excellent post O-10. And you are correct comparing it to bell bottoms. Both are equally relevant today. I said about three years ago that the 70's was a terrible time for music. Music from that era just never gave me good vibes. I am sure there are exceptions, but overall, not the best era for music. Cheers |
When I was about 22 I heard Romantic Warrior and decided I never wanted to be without it and bought two albums. I think it was my introduction to music being an art. I had never thought of it that way before. This album is so colorful. I love it. In about 1976 there was a electronics(mostly stereo equipment)show at the Salt Palace in Salt Lake City Utah. It was in a large arena, maybe 200' X 200'. It was really good sound equipment being demonstrated, even some of the highest of high end at that time. Every booth that was displaying sound equipment played this cut Romantic Warrior loud and clear, by way of a local(in the arena) FM broadcast. That was goose bump time for me. |
Since everyone seems to be in a Chick Corea mood; how about "My Spanish Heart". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLR1Un97Myg Enjoy the music. |
1976 Don Cherry…. Picked up a copy of this on vinyl about 3 weeks ago. Amazing sound! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuwDDz933ZI |
Yeah Rok, I liked that impersonation of Monk, it brought back memories of him in Nica's book. Right now I'm listening to Chick Corea's "My Spanish Heart"; that was some beautiful music; once he dumped that fusion, he never went back, and I'm going to follow in his footsteps. I can see no difference in "fusion" and my bright yellow double knit, low waist, 2 inch thick cuffs, bell bottom trousers. (they would be nice if you were to form a group called "The Clown Posse") Apparently the final obituary has not been read for this fusion beast, although this is the only place it's still alive; what does it take to kill it. Do you know where we can get some silver bullets? Enjoy the music. |
Like all Jazz, it kept mutating. You can hear it in modern Jazz to this day. Is there a Bill Frisell or a John Zorn, without Fusion. Don't think so. You always have the decision to add something new to your past or go back. Just because you move forward does not mean you discard the past, but like I said a long time ago, once you stop moving forward and learning the new vocabulary, everything new will sound odd, out of place, except the vocabulary you know and you are stuck in the past. The decision is always yours to make. Both as usual have consequences. |
Acman, you can not add or subtract anything from your past. In regard to music, I never make a conscious decision; what I'm saying is, I hear with my inner ear, my soul; and if the music resonates, I buy it; if it doesn't, I leave it be; it's just that simple. I don't view music the same way I view food, like this is healthy and that's not. I don't make any conscious decision at all; it's yes or no made by my inner ear. Enjoy the music. |
Rok, you and O-10 still don’t get it: THE GENRE DOESNT MATTER! Is it good music or not? That’s what matters; and whether it is good music or not does not depend on whether any one of us likes it or not. Now, a few clarifications: Enthused? I am enthused by any good music in any genre. It was O-10 who brought up fusion as a genre to explore. And, yes, contrary to what he said after the fact, he suggested exploring the genre even before determining (unbeknownst to me) that it is I who should "lead". Anyone who really cares to verify this timeline need only go back over O-10’s posts. But, thats not really important, I really don’t care about any of that and O-10 and I don’t need to argue about that as far as I am concerned. I saw it (somewhat reluctantly) as an opportunity to explore a new genre and share and discuss some interesting music. O-10 then decided (I think for reasons that are not really important to discuss as far as I am concerned) that the discussion should be ended. I was already in, let’s say, a fusion frame of mind and so decided to continue exploring it. So, what’s the bottom line? : ****Good grief!!! They’re everywhere, they’re everywhere!!!!**** Pretty good bottom line if you ask me. I hope this doesn’t rub anyone the wrong way, but it needs to be said: Good grief!!! How many times do we need to hear about Grant Green!!! Again, bottom line: new music, interesting discussions/debates, new posters. Not too shabby! The big picture: From my vantage point it is incredible that a listener cannot "find something good to say about fusion". There’s bad fusion just like there is bad jazz of the "ding, ding-a-ding, ding, ding-a-ding" type that is what is mostly discussed here. So what? But, to not be able to appreciate at least SOME of what a tour de force like "Romantic Warrior" has to offer is a shame. The level of craft is astounding and the level of the compositional values is outstanding; there is much to appreciate even if we much prefer other genres. To me, it’s far more productive and positive to, instead of saying, "the 70s were a bad year for music", to instead say "I can’t relate to the music of the 70s"; keeps the door open to growth. But that’s just me; and for whatever it may be worth to anyone else, it’s also the attitude of the overwhelming majority of musicians. ****One never knows............ Do one?**** You haven’t been paying attention. Btw, O-10, I’m NOT picking on you, I just think one should be careful about making comments that are not factual. First of all, "My Spanish Heart" IS fusion; and Corea didn’t "dump" fusion at all after that recording. Check out his Elektrik Band recordings. 1977 coming up soon. |
Frogman, Thanks for posting Romantic Warrior. Haven't listened to it in a long time and had forgotten how much I liked the album. My jazz began with Frank Sinatra, Oscar Peterson, Erroll Garner and Louis Armstrong. (when he played more than he sang). I started playing drums in grade school and by the time I got to high school I was listening to Miles Davis and Frank Zappa. Chick Corea, Herbie, and Weather Report exploded, (at least to me) on the scene when I was in high school and because I was living near Seattle I got to hear them live many times. It was a great time to love music. One of the many aspects I like about fusion, (and a lot of jazz for that matter) is that the song "develops." With a lot of pop you know everything about the song in the first 16 bars, maybe 8. It's one of the reasons I like the Beatles, (and others) so much; their song develop and change throughout. I have also been blessed with extreme difficulty understanding lyrics. In other words, I hear the human voice as an instrument. I remember one morning listening to Weather Report. I had been married all of 2 days and my wife and I were still getting to know each other. It was about 7 in the morning and I've got my stereo playing "Black Market" and was playing along, intensely on a kitchen pot. It was the nearest instrument. Count me in as a member of the "I like fusion" club. Bob And we're still married. 29 years this August. |
Frogman, why didn't you put my bright yellow doubled knit bell bottomed slacks with the low waist and 2 inch cuffs in your post; I'm sure they fit somewhere. As I stated before, I no longer make conscious decisions in regard to music, I trust that to my inner soul, so if it doesn't like the music, don't blame me, blame my inner soul. It also told me that "My Spanish Heart" is not the fusion that you have been presenting. The word "fusion" can be used to represent so many different combinations that it's meaning is abstract, vague, and non definitive. Fusion in regard to "My Spanish Heart" could be the fusion of jazz and Spanish music. Fusion that we have been listening to is electronic space music. Since I owned those bright yellow double knit bell bottomed trousers with (correction) the 3 inch cuffs, I'm sure I had a good reason for buying them, just as I own all these fusion LP's, I'm sure I had a good reason for buying them as well; but at the moment whatever that reason was, it eludes me. I can not separate those trouser and "Romantic Warrior" they both belong to a time in the past that I can no longer relate to. Those fusion records have not been converted to CD's, nor were they down loaded to the play list like all my favorite records. The facts speak for themselves, now do you want me to lie and tell how much I like fusion in order to agree with your obsession with fusion? Enjoy the music. |
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One of the many aspects I like about fusion, (and a lot of jazz for that matter) is that the song "develops." ***** Interesting. I always felt just the opposite about Fusion. Just a collection of unrelated and unconnected sounds. If it had a beginning, middle and ending, with all the players providing mutual support, if might be considered Jazz. As it is, O-10 nailed it. The title of the tunes and the album covers tell you all you need to know. The Frogman pointed out on one of the JALC clips, how one soloist picked up and continued the theme by repeating the last musical phrase the previous soloist played. I didn't hear anything approaching that on the Chick Corea record. Incoherent. Cheers |
Rok, the most rewarding foray into new music was Mary Lou Willliams, and to think, I did not have one single record of hers in my collection; that would have been a tragic oversight of mine, if we had not gone exploring. I always "assumed"; there's that word that makes an ass out of you and me; that her music was old, and related to a genre of jazz that (may the jazz Gods forgive me) I could live without; but the truth was so far removed from my assumption, that I enjoy her music more than anyone else in my collection. Her music is so down to earth and easy to listen to. I don't think we're ever going to be so fortunate again, but we can't go anywhere until Frogman performs the final rites over the "Fusion beast". Although it wouldn't hurt to think about where we go next. What happened after "Fusion"? Grover Washington was hot, so was "Spyro Gyro". here's "Morning Dance" in case you've forgotten. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVDZ5UY_oDw Just speculating on what's next. Enjoy the music. |
O-10, the last thing I want you to do is lie about any of this; your honesty is far more interesting. "Obsession": please allow me to remind you that it was you who wanted to go into fusion "in depth". Once again the problem is that there is no grasp of just how deep this stuff (any music) runs and you talk about it as if you do grasp it. Rok, I expected better from you. From the standpoint of logic alone, since it was I who pointed out to you what you describe about one soloist picking up where the other left off, something I did because you were not capable of hearing (recognizing) it for yourself, does it not follow that you should perhaps, just perhaps, give some (just a tinzy wins y bit) of credence to what I am now saying about this music? Makes sense to me. Now, let’s put logic aside and let’s look at the facts of the matter: A soloist picking up where the other left off was an example of just ONE solo in that JALC example. It is ONE way that a soloist can start a solo, and a good and interesting way, but NOT the only way. If that were the only valid way then you can go ahead and deem about 90% of the "jazz-jazz" solos posted in this thread as bs; not a reasonable proposition, I am sure you would agree. The majority of great solos don’t do that. Now, the really good stuff: The reason that you didn’t hear that particular solo technique (and, yes, it IS the dreaded "technique") in the Corea music, and assuming your perception abilities have increased dramatically since the JALC clip was posted (if so, you’re very welcome, btw) is that in the Chick Corea music most of the music is "through-composed" (Wiki, look it up). That is what I meant when I said that the music should be approached like a symphony. Much of what you hear in that music is not improvised; it is part of the composition and within the framework of that composition there is room for improvised solos. In that way, it is like Duke’s jazz suites with "movements" within which and between which the soloists improvise. The soloists don’t follow each other in the more typical and simpler way, so there would be no opportunity for the soloists to even do what you point to. Apparently you thought that what was part of the composition was soloing. Now, the REALLY important stuff: Sadly, not much new. Wholesale panning of an entire genre that, obviously, many on his thread find value in; and, instead of simply expressing dislike it is put down in insulting ways. Nice. And btw, Johnny Dodds, Dexter, Martial Solal (!!) and others as well and nary a peep. Go figure. 1977 coming up. |
This is a tune that really impressed me; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dnIBKw4d84 Maybe we start at a given point in time, (past fusion) and everybody select favorite tunes for that year, just a thought. Enjoy the music. |
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does it not follow that you should perhaps, just perhaps, give some (just a tinzy wins y bit) of credence to what I am now saying about this music? Makes sense to me. ****** If I were deaf, I would give you complete credence about how this music sounds. If I couldn't read, I would wait with bated breath for you to tell me about the origins of Fusion. If I had been born yesterday, I would hang on to your every word to bring me up to date.. But sense none of that is true, I appreciate the things you point out in music, and I am glad you do it. BUT, that does not mean your opinion cannot be challenged. Learsfool's admonishments notwithstanding. Makes sense to me. Cheers |
