Jazz for aficionados
rok - not trying to be a provocateur but why should anyone care what Wynton says about who is playing "Jazz"? Granted he is a talented jazz musician...an accomplished, celebrated artist. But is he "keeper of the flame" as it were? I'd be real interested knowing what criteria he's using to arrive at those judgements...which is just another way of asking, has he got a "definition" of jazz? I am NOT trying to bust your chops on this...thinking it's a discussion worth having is all, touching as it does on some of the recent music suggestions appearing on this thread. |
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not trying to be a provocateur ***** Don't worry. This thread is lousy with those. ***** But is he "keeper of the flame" as it were? ***** Yes. For all practical purposes, he is. ***** I'd be real interested knowing what criteria he's using to arrive at those judgements...which is just another way of asking, has he got a "definition" of jazz? ***** The criteria is drawn from his background. He Comes from a very distinguished and established musical family, in the birth place of jazz, New Orleans. Knows the history of the music, from it's roots and beginnings. Is a virtuoso on his instrument. Holds the most important position in the world of Jazz today, leader at JALC. Is the media's go to guy for all things Jazz. Very articulate. Very personable. Educated. Can talk about, explain, and teach the young about the music. As far as slamming Miles: Coming out of New Orleans, with his pedigree, he was not / is not, intimidated by Miles or anyone else. He is so important, we have to think in terms of who will be his successor. We don't think that way about any other player. Knows how to dress. Looks, talks and acts like a Jazz player. He is Da man!! Cheers |
Jafant asks: ****Over what subject matter?**** Jazz; or, more specifically, the idea that the music that Metheny and (late) Miles played was not jazz. ****Why?**** Its actually quite simple. In the case of Miles, because it was Miles who first criticized the young Wynton, who was being touted as the next big thing, because (and to quote Miles) "he ain't saying shit". It is only human nature that there would be some resentment there on the part of Wynton. Obviously, I can't get inside Wynton's head, but I do agree with the assessment of many in the jazz community that Wynton's rep as an important jazz PLAYER was seriously overstated. This has been commented on many times here and certainly elsewhere. Wynton is a force of nature as virtuoso trumpet player, champion of jazz and its roots, jazz educator, and more; all of that is undeniable and he deserves tremendous credit. However, in my opinion and that of many, Miles was right; he just doesn't have "the thing". His jazz is impressive for what he can do with a trumpet, not for his ability to tell a story when he improvises. He has built an empire around the "preservation" of traditional jazz. I believe he is totally sincere; but, as with the rare well meaning politician, the lines get blurred and it's only natural to fall into the trap of condemning what does not fit his formula. ****Coming from Wynton, it cannot be ignored.**** Of course it can be. It usually isn't ignored; however, not being ignored doesn't necessarily mean being correct. |
Rok - Not much time this AM. Will write more later. Great answer. Knew of the man but not much more. Have to say again, I enjoyed that video of his jazz band's performance that you posted. Do you not think Wynton has any peers in today's jazz music world? No other equally qualified authoritative voices? If I were serious about pursuing this topic would have to read Marsalis...try to see if he wrote specifically about defining jazz. "I know it when I hear it" doesn't do too much for me. OK. Later and Thanks. |
Some further thoughts on the topic of Wynton: Rok states: ****The criteria is drawn from his background. He Comes from a very distinguished and established musical family, in the birth place of jazz, New Orleans. Knows the history of the music, from it’s roots and beginnings. Is a virtuoso on his instrument. Holds the most important position in the world of Jazz today, leader at JALC. Is the media’s go to guy for all things Jazz. Very articulate. Very personable. Educated. Can talk about, explain, and teach the young about the music.**** Everything that Rok says is true. However, notice the conspicuous absence of a comment about his jazz playing. It would be an exaggeration to quote the old adage "those who can’t, teach", but I think it’s important to put Wynton’s sheer credibility as a jazz player as part of the backdrop before accepting everything that the guy says as gospel or that he has THE definition of jazz. There is an interesting irony in what Wynton has accomplished in all the ways already described. Here we have an art form that has been traditionally and staunchly resistant to the rules of "the establishment" and things like "jazz education"; a music which is deeply about self expression and soul. Yet, Wynton, himself, has become "the establishment". He holds, as Rok points out, the highest "position" in jazz. Who woulda thunk? A "position" in jazz? When and how did that happen? What the purists don’t want to accept is that you can’t stop the evolution of the art form (any art form); it is always a reflection of the times. The purist thinks that he is "protecting" the art form by blanketly (?) rejecting the new. I think Wynton can take much credit for keeping the flame of tradition alive. However, one has to ask oneself the question? Ultimately, what does the most damage to art in the overall scheme of things? To try to keep the flame of tradition alive by rejecting the new directions that the art form takes; directions which are a natural part of its process. Or, to accept the new directions with the knowledge that accepting the new doesn’t have to mean forgetting about tradition, while holding the new up to the same standars for defining excellence. By doing the latter, what you end up doing is bringing a larger and younger audience to the art form who will end up discovering the traditional. There is always room for the new and the old, and excellence is not defined by whether it is new or whether it is old. |
Food for thought (hopefully): There is a viewpoint that says that Donald Trump has no intention of building a wall. All politicians, however well-intended or deluded, sometimes say things that they know will have to be amended over time in order to "gain some traction". From Wynton’s own website: ****Two rising stars of jazz will lead the Miles and ‘Trane celebrations in Dizzy’s Club Coca-Cola. On May 13 – 15 at 7:30pm, trumpeter Keyon Harrold – called “the future of the trumpet” by Wynton Marsalis – will lead an expansive exploration of Miles Davis’ music in Iconic Miles Davis. Like Davis, Harrold is an eclectic, genre-hopping, and convention-spurning musician whose music ranges from unadulterated bebop and straight-ahead jazz to electronically-infused R&B and hip-hop.**** Hmmmm.......interesting! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oaGIbgNOUFc Jazz?: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qtZiVpwrPhY |
"Aficionados"! On this day, Friday, the 20th of May, 2016, Orpheus and Frogman agree on something; ditto on Wynton. Don't be surprised if a volcano somewhere erupts, or some other cataclysmic event occurs. If there was an award for the most "stereotypical" jazz of the year, Wynton Marsalis would win it every year. Enjoy the music. |
Today's Listen: Duke Ellington -- LATIN AMERICAN SUITE If, like me, you thought this would be The Duke's band with 30 guys on percussion instruments and 40 'Latin' trumpets, you would be wrong. Written soon after his Band toured South and Central America. It was originally going to be called "Mexicanticipacion". Mercifully, the name was changed to "Latin American Suite". This music shows why this man was such a special composer. He heard the sounds and rhythms of South America and expressed them in such a delicate and sophisticated way. With a lesser person, this could have been Santamaria on steroids. This tune was recorded in 1970. So there was Jazz being made and played during the 70's. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W1vR3D6S4w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD5PVfMyvUs Cheers |
C’mon Rok, we’re all big boys (and girls?). It IS possible to have interesting discussion about something without complete agreement. There was no "bashing" in anything I wrote. However, in that comment is found the real issue; the swing (pun) to an "all or nothing" attitude. Wynton is great in so many ways. But is he deserving of total and complete adulation and worship? Is there no room for disagreement about specific areas? Me and O-10, "birds of a feather"? Yikes! I don’t think so. We may agree about Wynton in a very general sense, but that’s about it. What I mean is, I don’t consider Wynton’s playing "stereotypical" AT ALL (!). I (and many) just don’t think his jazz playing is very interesting by the standards set by the great jazz players of the past. Ellington: Fantastic! Your description of that music is spot on. The Duke was brilliant. |
I suspect that In the not too distant future, I will click on the latest you-tube from JALC, and there, in the Tenor Sax chair, will sit, The Frogman. At that point all the boos, hisses and cries of outrage directed at Wynton will cease. Wynton, at that point, will be The Frogman's boy. Stay tuned. Cheers |
"Grover Washington Jr." was certainly popular in the 70's. That's when I was traveling a lot between St. Louis and Atlanta, and Grover Washington was very popular in both places. He was one of the most consistent musicians when it came to good sounding music; that continued up until his death in 1999. In 1971, he came out with an album titled "Inner City Blues", and there was not one bad cut on it; as a matter of fact, I have to present 3 cuts on that album: Inner City Blues; Mercy Mercy Me, and Ain't No Sunshine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUxHao8aZPI&list=PLutzgs53WVha-XVfWBt4zEqpnhCfoiMl5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CXWsVg3ZC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKfiyY9UcpI Those three cuts were from the same album. I bought that album when it came out, and it is well worn. This is what "Wiki" says about Grovers style; Fusion, Jazz-Funk, Smooth Jazz; I'm not quite sure I know what all that means, but when Grover does it, I like it. One last time for Grover; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaeEEqA3pPs Enjoy the music. |
The surgeon that performed the first, or one of the first heart transplants in this country, had this music piped into the operating room as he performed the transplant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv35zFXXLGM Cheers |
One of my favorite vocal albums is one I've been listening to a lot lately; it's "Film Noir" which was nominated for the Grammy Award for Best Traditional Pop Vocal Performance. This album is by Carly Simon, who has been all over the place in regard to musical genres. This album, Carly Simon and her vocals seem to bring a part of my past alive, and back to the present. Have you ever heard a song, or an album that you felt was made especially for you; every song in this album reaches me in that manner. The very first cut on this album grabbed me; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0wta3xkqJo&list=PLF8ORYKG1eEqjPegl49CHYc_Scqa40vDm It's like when you were with one woman but thinking about another, and this other woman seemed to have the audacity to be looking over your shoulder and telling you "You Won't Forget Me". Fortunately this album comes with a video, I think you'll like it. Enjoy the music. |
Missed a few great Jean Luc Ponty, who was playing with Zappa during this period. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GJIg-55dxY It's Blue Note https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6-VkfObluA |
Thanks Frogman, for the Abercrombe, and Liebman. 1975 One of my favorite Miles records… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j68BIF00Fso&list=PLA5ADD467591AF2BB |
Fantastic interview clips, Acman3. They should be required watching for all on this thread; the Crouch/Mtume debate in particular. Here's part two of that: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jAtaxon9t5g Its late so I'll check out and comment on the music clips tomorrow. Thanks! |
Frogman wrote - "What the purists don’t want to accept is that you can’t stop the evolution of the art form (any art form); it is always a reflection of the times. The purist thinks that he is "protecting" the art form by blanketly (?) rejecting the new. I think Wynton can take much credit for keeping the flame of tradition alive. However, one has to ask oneself the question? Ultimately, what does the most damage to art in the overall scheme of things? To try to keep the flame of tradition alive by rejecting the new directions that the art form takes; directions which are a natural part of its process. Or, to accept the new directions with the knowledge that accepting the new doesn’t have to mean forgetting about tradition, while holding the new up to the same standars for defining excellence. By doing the latter, what you end up doing is bringing a larger and younger audience to the art form who will end up discovering the traditional. There is always room for the new and the old, and excellence is not defined by whether it is new or whether it is old. " Well said, Frogman. Great counterpoint to Wynton’s position and one, personally, that I tend to believe..."art will evolve" whether I want it to or not. Acman thanks for the Jean Luc Ponty links. I had liked his playing with Zappa but limited sampling of his solo stuff (Cosmic Messenger?) just sounded awfully dated to me. On the other hand, the Blue Note recording (available on Amazon and I will order) did not. Seemed fresh. The King Kong it opens with is one of my favorite pieces from Zappa (to the uninitiated, see KK Variations on Uncle Meat). Thanks much. Orpheus very much enjoying your Didier Lockwood link. Have forwarded to to family. My sister is a classically trained violinist but lately interested in other forms (Grappelli music book on the stand in their music room). |
Acman3, loved the Herlin Riley clip. It should be pointed out that Riley is a member of the JALC orchestra and that many of the personal projects that the individual members of that orchestra are involved with are very forward looking; drawing from the past, but definitely in the present and pushing ahead. |
A latter version of Tony William's Lifetime. Holdsworth was always a monster. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFZEK-meZ-I |
Ghosthouse, you got my day off to a good start; when I discovered that something I posted is not only benefiting you, but also someone in your family, that really blessed my day. This is another album by Didier Lockwood that impressed me; he can touch on so many different genres, and still stay in the framework of jazz. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbsnoE4RvCk&list=PLehwxpvRcYAGVoOfi1iG4PzEvPoXWlRoU Enjoy the music. |
Before moving on to fusion in 1976, I thought it would be good to look at some of what was happening in (unequivocally) jazz: Second only to Freddie, Woody Shaw, is my favorite of the more recent trumpet players. This record features one of the truly unsung alto saxophone heros Frank Strozier: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kf5txz0Bh-E His last recording while still in Europe and making his acclaimed return to the USA. One of the true giants and the epitome of relaxed swagger in playing style. Straddles a fine line between relaxed and painfully behind the beat. Love Dexter: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9XBvM9WbMjc What was I thinking?! I missed this one for 1975: Beck has already been mentioned; monster! Dave Sanborn would influence the way the alto saxophone was played by countless young players. Even the diehard jazz guys can be heard to have Sanbornisms in their playing. As an interesting aside, Sanborn considers Stevie Wonder's harmonica playing one of his main influences:: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL61q9XLJ_eZCCacgEzQeh2GemoyYvdJyl&v=qRmEpnyNeJI Acman3, Holdsworth!....holy shit! Thanks. |
Rok, I happened to be listening to this album, and I was wondering if you have it "Soul Stirrin" by Benny Green on trombone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aeVlQtsaFE&list=PL5BC966488E04EF5F Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, I don't think expressing points of disagreement is "throwing rocks", and apparently you don't either. What is "stereotypical" to one person is really "gittin down" to another person; that's because the other person hasn't heard as much jazz, consequently, what's old hat to me, is new to you, and you don't recognize it as "stereotypical" because you haven't heard it before. Enjoy the music. |
Today's Listen: Grant Green / Sonny Clark -- The Complete Quartets The OP's boy. Well, he can play. Every tune well played by both Sonny and Grant. Great tone on the guitar. Lots of standards. And I think this maybe be why the OP was sort of disappointed. Well played standards, but nothing that really reached out and grabbed you. No 'Senor Blues' type tunes. Too Many like these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9R--KOCgUo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTD-4AozN5o Not enough, or none, like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4qLD3c2rGA But, a very nice record. Cannot fault his playing. Cheers |
Wynton: When Marsalis arrived on the scene, the epicenter of Jazz was in NYC. Full of hard, bitter, angry, drug addicted Jazz players. They played music that reflected this condition. Forgotten was the warning from Pops that,"If you can't dance to it, it ain't Jazz". They were all advancing the art. They advanced the art so far that they left the paying public behind. Enter the Jazz savior coming up from the birth place of Jazz. Virtuoso, clean cut, drug free, and very articulate. He called them out. Showed them they were washed up, and had lost their way. Saved Jazz. That's why folks like Miles resented him. Jesus cleansed the Temple, and you see what they did to him. So Wynton has survived relatively unscathed. Cheers |
Watching the French news yesterday. They were interviewing the American Movie Director William Friedkin at the Cannes Film Festival. He directed 'The French Connection' and 'The Exorcist' among others. When asked which movie did he think was the best of all time, he answered, without hesitation, "Citizen Kane". Made in 1941. Jazz fans should ponder that. So much for 'advancing the Art'. Cheers |
Rok, was the Sonny Clark set in St. Louis, MO.? I had to pay $35. for the vinyl record because it wasn't on CD, so think how lucky you are if you can get it on CD; I think it's boss, and I certainly can't count the times I've heard it; which means it can stand repeated listening, however, if you think otherwise..... Enjoy the music. |
Read what I said again OP. You said it was not as good as you remembered them being. I was just suggesting that maybe it was because of the large number of standards. Broadway type stuff. I used the CD by Wes as a contrast and example of what the Green set could have used more of. Swinging, Blues, Cookin' or whatever. That's all. Cheers |
Rok, do you remember that scene in the "Blues Brothers" when they played the wrong kind of music in a "Country & Western" joint; that's what would have happened to Grant Green if he had played "Moon River" in a "Hard Bop" establishment in St. Louis; at the places he was accustomed to playing. The CD was in reference to Benny Green "Soul Stirrin"; if you can get the CD you're one lucky fellow; as a matter of fact, if it's available on CD, I'm going to order one. Enjoy the music. |
O-10, you flatter yourself. I agree that what is stereotypical to one person may be something else to another person; back to that in a moment. Let's get this one out of the way: You are absolutely correct, having points of disagreements is not "throwing rocks"; but, as usual, you misconstrue what the issue was and is. The throwing of rocks (which was your phrase, btw) was not and is not having points of disagreement; it is the style and attitude used while disagreeing. You tend to have a very provocative style as demonstrated by your unnecessary reference to me in a discussion that I had no part in; and your admonition that I "not post that CC is fiction". Why do you make the assumption that I would? If you cannot understand that that comment/admonition is provocative then I can't help you further. THAT was the "first stone thrown" by you that I referred to; and what you often do btw, as exemplified by the fact that here we are, after many new and interesting posts and comments about music, and you choose to, instead of moving on, to bring up that nonsense again. I rest my case. Now, what is "stereotypical"? Who knows? You coined the phrase. It probably means something different to each of us. My comment was simply that Wynton's playing did not fit MY definition of "stereotypical"; a silly notion to begin with. It is meaningless to throw out vague terms like that at the exclusion of some substantive description of what is meant. Concerning my comment re Wynton the great irony is that it is the absence of a strong sense of what the "stereotypical" hallmarks of good jazz improvisation are that are missing in his playing. Additionally, and even more ironic given the recent discussion is that one of the most discernible and interesting influences in his playing (particularly his early recordings) is.....are you ready?......Miles. How ironic is that? Now, your self-flattery. ****that's because the other person hasn't heard as much jazz, consequently, what's old hat to me, is new to you, and you don't recognize it as "stereotypical"**** The obvious retort is "how do you know" that I haven't listened to as much jazz? O-10, if you feel the need to pump yourself up by thinking that yours is bigger than mine I couldn't care less; but, I assure you that Panonica would not agree 😜. And this claim coming from someone who proudly admits to not having or having had any interest in pre-swing, swing, big band jazz, any "before Bird" jazz. Yikes! 1976 coming up. |
Frogman, you are one of the most interesting individuals I have ever encountered. You tend to have a very provocative style as demonstrated by your unnecessary reference to me in a discussion that I had no part in; and your admonition that I "not post that CC is fiction". Why do you make the assumption that I would? Frogman, you thought I confused "Like Young" as classical music in a post that was meant for "Learsfool", plus you understood that I thought "Santana" was fusion in a post that wasn't meant for you. I thought I would head you off at the pass, (so to speak) in regard to CC. "Stereotypical" can have a number of different meanings depending on who's using it and how it's used. When I use it I'm referring to jazz "cliches" that have been used over and over again. Since you are a musician, you should be able to recognize them better than me. Presuming that I've heard more jazz than you is possibly a bit of self flattery, but it would depend on our age differences and how much we listen to jazz. Since you also listen to classical, we have to eliminate that portion of your time. In regard to all the different chronology of jazz, I'm guilty, but since I spend more time, I'll call it a wash. While this is much to do about nothing, it's been a dull boring day anyway. Enjoy the music. |
