Sansui,Dual, and JBL sounded pretty good back then, and they didn't break the bank. Even today, a Sansui tuner is beautiful, and it's sound is unique among tuners "mello" is how I would describe it. Now that you mention it, I don't have any Gabor CD's. I guess I didn't keep up with musicians back then, because I didn't know a lot of things about him, like he was on drugs, and died relatively young. I don't think I've heard enough of his music. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A1bor_Szab%C3%B3Enjoy the music. |
Rok, I wonder about these musician drug addicts in regard to their business dealings. First, no matter what the "up standing business" says about the "drug addict", the public takes their word for it. Now I find that the "up standing business" was flat out lying; and another question is "Why did that business have so many drug addicts"? So many that one musician left for that very reason. I didn't finish college, but I can add, subtract, multiply, and I can even do long division; these numbers for the musicians ain't coming up right.
Enjoy the music.
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If you are speaking of Jazz musicians that end up broke and dead at 27, it's their fault.
Harsh but true: "A Fool and his Money are soon parted".
Truer words have never been spoken.
As I have said before, some folks just think other people should look out for their best interest. What a strange idea.
I think the drug thingy is true for this reason: Consider pro athletes. Some make more money in a year than most working class folks make in their lives. Within 5 years of their playing days, they are all broke. Seek out, and watch the episode of the ESPN program 30/30 titled "Broke". You won't know whether to laugh or cry. I laughed.
Lay off that purple stuff.
Cheers |
Rok, you're talking in general, and I'm talking about specific cases where all the details were laid out. There is no doubt about what you are saying, but in this case the drug addicts were taken advantage of, the same as sharecroppers who couldn't read and write were taken advantage of.
You seem to be saying it's OK to take advantage of drug addicts just like it's OK to take advantage of people who can't read and write, is that right?
No, we are not talking about the same thing; this is about "so called" sub standard albums that were not released until after the musician was dead. Those albums as it turns out, were the best he ever made, and you being an 'aficionado' could judge that, in regard to the albums.
Enjoy the music.
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I don't even pretend to understand the music business, but I always thought the amount of money an artist made was at least in part based on record sales.
If the LP is not released, how does the artist get paid or make money? Any player with an IQ over 6 would be aware that music recordings sell forever. A player in 1965 would know that records cut decades before where still being sold.
So what did he think happened to the stuff that was not released? Why didn't the contract demand release? What didn't he retain the rights to all unreleased sessions? What was he paid for recording sessions that were not released? Had they heard of Lawyers?
Why would they think the guys at the studio would put their, the player's, interest before their own?
Do I think all this OK? No. It's just human nature. Today there was a crisis here in my home. 'Our' cat that has set up homestead in our back yard, cleaned out his bowl of food, and then walked right out into the yard and killed a bird at the bird bath. My wife wants to kill the cat. i asked, why? She was just doing what cats do. They kill things. That's what they do. If she was bigger, she would kill us.
Jazz players make music, and business men make money. That's what they do. The more the businessmen makes, the less the player makes.
Cheers |
G.F. Händel: Water Music - Akademie für alte Musik Berlin:
Fabulous! If I could could give it six stars (and anybody cared), I would. Beautiful and spirited playing of this wonderful music. Truth is, I have never been a huge fan of the "period instrument" movement for some of the very reasons that I didn't like the French orchestra's performance. This is special. The period instruments display their unique timbres and overall "softer" tones; but, when appropriate, these players dig in and play them with real verve and without the often heard sense that there is something unusually precious about these period instruments or the way they are supposed to be played. Fabulous baroque oboe, baroque flute and natural horn playing (would like to know Learsfool's take on the latter). Excellent intonation and section to section balance (!) overall.
There is something special, when it works, about a conductorless orchestra. In this case the "conductor" is the concert master. Players are forced (a good thing) to listen to each other with a level of care that is not always the case when there is a conductor's beat to follow. Some really magical things can happen as a resuIt. It doesn't always work and in no way should the role of a great conductor be underestimated. This definitely works.
They are standing as was common practice at the time the music was composed. Not all are standing; only the ones who can. I don't know that this is the same performance that would be on the disc as I read a reference to the one on the disc having been recorded in a studio. Harmonia Mundi recording is a sure bet that it will be great sounding and no reason to expect that it would not be a performance at least as good as the one heard on this video.
Loved it. Thanks and will be ordering it myself.
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Hi guys - first, to answer a question Rok posed: "If the LP is not released, how does the artist get paid or make money?" Answer: the artists are paid for their work in the recording sessions themselves - in fact, this is the biggest single payment they receive, unless the album does incredibly well and they end up making a fair amount of royalties over many years. Most albums don't sell that much, though, and the royalties do not usually add up to what the original payment for the recording sessions were. Only the very biggest artists make a significant amount of money in royalties - also the studio musicians who do most of the movies in LA and London. Also guys that play for TV and radio commercials that end up getting used over and over again for years and years do very well if they are lucky enough to have done one of those (for instance, think of those Motel 6 radio ads that may have the voice-over changed up, but it is that same music that they originally recorded and gets re-used in otherwise new commercials - those guys that did that session still make very good money in re-use payments, but that is unusual nowadays). For orchestral musicians, the upfront payment we get for the session itself is much bigger than anything we ever get afterwards in the way of royalties, if there even are any. It also depends, for us, on the type of recording and the agreement it is recorded under. Many orchestras now self-produce their recordings, and they have a limited, local release, which makes it cheaper for them.
The Academy of Early Music Berlin is one of the finer early music ensembles going right now, and that is a very nice performance. The very best early music groups are still in England, though, which is sort of where that whole movement got started. There are some good ones here in the states, too. To answer Frogman's question on my opinion of the natural horn playing - I think those guys are pretty good, though there is definitely better around the world, both here and in England. The best performance of the Water Music on natural horns that I know of is John Eliot Gardiner's group (The English Baroque Soloists) - those guys that play for him are really great. That is something I have always had an interest in doing but have never pulled the trigger on - I don't own a natural horn. I really should, as there is a need for it where I am - I could easily get enough work with it to justify the purchase and learning the technique. Part of it is that I am a low horn player, and much of the solo natural horn work would be high, quite a bit different from what I normally do. I have always wanted to find a good high horn player to do it with me as a pair, so it would suit me better, but that hasn't happened yet. |
It is rare the artist that retains the rights to unreleased material. It is possible to include a provision in an artist’s contract that stipulates that, should the label fail to release the recording, the artist then retains the copyright to that recording. However, this is rare and the record label usually owns all of the contracted artist’s material for (usually) fifty years or so. Agree or disagree the record labels reasoning and justification for these practices is their claim that it takes a great deal of upfront investment to record, release and promote a recording. As Rok points out, they are a business and in the business of. making money. Having said that, I think it’s important to remember that if the label doesn’t make money, no artist makes money (from recordings). I don’t believe that a record label sets out to NOT release a recording and then save it until the artist has passed in an effort to make money. They don’t release a particular recording because they don’t feel it is commercially viable AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME. Contrary to popular belief here, some artists DO make and HAVE made inferior recordings. I use this example not to start yet another war here, but as an expression of my viewpoint. The often discussed great (and he was) Grant Green made recordings late in his career that where, in my opinion, considerably inferior to his classics. The most recently posted clips of his work show an artist going into a (soul-funk-whatever) genre that was populated by some pretty stiff competition like George Benson and Wes Montgomery; players who were receiving a lot of attention and backing. Importantly, for some reason, his backing bands in these later recordings sometimes left a lot to be desired, imo. Case in point, the recently posted "Live At The Lighthouse". Whose idea was it to hire Claude Bartee for that recording? Who knows. But it was not a good choice; he sounds absolutely awful on soprano saxophone. I can see a scenario where label executives would decide to not release a recording like that because there was so much other music in a similar bag being released by them or other labels. I hate posting recordings of what I consider inferior music, but simply to make a point here is a recording that, to my way of thinking, one has to wonder "what where they thinking?"; and almost twenty minutes of it!! Terrible horn arrangements. Sometimes artists make bad choices; sometimes producers make bad choices or decisions. Simple as that. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zKVvBHusoMYEven the great Michael Brecker's solo sounds a little "dialed in". |
The Frogman / Learsfool:
Thanks for the insight into the music business and the review / comments on the Handel piece. I did not notice the absence of a conductor. I was so focused on the players.
I also have the John Gardiner CD. I should branch out, and try more Classical Composers.. I tend to buy the best performances of the stuff with which I am familiar. I have noticed that the names of the Composers being reviewed are starting to be more and more unfamiliar. Back in the day, all the reviews seemed to be of the usual suspects.
Cheers |
Many of Grant's recordings were not released during his lifetime. These include McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones (also part of the Solid group) performing on Matador (also recorded in 1964), and several albums with pianist Sonny Clark. In 1966 Grant left Blue Note and recorded for several other labels, including Verve. From 1967 to 1969 Grant was, for the most part, inactive due to personal problems and the effects of heroin addiction. In 1969 Grant returned with a new funk-influenced band. His recordings from this period include the commercially successful Green is Beautiful and the soundtrack to the film The Final Comedown.
Enjoy the music.
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Grant Green:
I have these:
Sunday Mornin'
Solid
Matador
Idle Moments
Feelin' The Spirit
What others do you recommend?
Cheers |
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Benson’s take on Mario Bauza’s Cu-bop classic which Grant Green recorded three decades earlier. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=11-TeC5wq90A generation that is not particularly appreciative of the "less is more" approach to things might be seduced by Benson’s very slick state of the art rrangement and production. I like it; but, for feel and swagger Green’s version gets my vote. I suspect O-10 would agree. What do you think, O-10? |
Below is Frogmans statement in regard to the music posted. "the recently posted "Live At The Lighthouse". Whose idea was it to hire Claude Bartee for that recording? Who knows. But it was not a good choice; he sounds absolutely awful on soprano saxophone. I can see a scenario where label executives would decide to not release a recording like that because there was so much other music in a similar bag being released by them or other labels. I hate posting recordings of what I consider inferior music, but simply to make a point here is a recording that, to my way of thinking, one has to wonder "what where they thinking?"; and almost twenty minutes of it!! Terrible horn arrangements. Sometimes artists make bad choices; sometimes producers make bad choices or decisions. Simple as that." Here are two jams I posted 04-28-16. This is the music Frogman referred to as "inferior". While this music is "inferior" to Frogman, I don't like it any less because of his judgment; if anything, I like it even more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW_YbNKAXfA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC0qN0SquJM Enjoy the music. |
I don't pay any attention to those categories in regard to jazz (soul jazz) What's that? I'm not going to clutter my mind trying to define it. If you listen close to Grant Greens guitar, (Boss Jazz) is the only kind it (his guitar) knows how to play; and you can tell that from the sounds coming from the audience at "The Lighthouse".
No one comes between me and my music, not even my darling wife; right now I'm listening to "Flood in Franklin Park" and it's kicking, and cooking. Everybody is getting into the act: that organ is smoking, give the drummer some, cause he done kicked it up a notch, don't play that cat on the horn cheap; everybody made outstanding contributions on that cut, even the audience.
Enjoy the music.
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For the record, and to keep my quoted comments in proper not incomplete/distorted context:
****The often discussed great (and he was) Grant Green made recordings late in his career that where, in my opinion, considerably inferior to his classics.****
Moreover, the entire second half of my quoted comments are in reference to a recording other than the reposted "Lighthouse" recording. And, of course, the even bigger context and reason for my comments was the attempt to determine a possible reason for why some recordings are not released right away. I am generally not one for conspiracy theories.
Man, if that olive tree loses any more branches, not even Bird will be able to find a perch on it 😊 |
Rok, I've got almost all of Grant Greens CD's, and the one I like the least is "King Funk", but we ordered that for Donald Byrd, and not Grant Green, if you remember; consequently, that's good to.
Grant is a very creative artist, and you wont get stuck in a rut with him. I've only got two records, "Live At The Lighthouse", and "The Final Comedown" which is radically different, and I like it, but it didn't suit your taste; so almost everything except that. The best way to go about this, is to sample on "you tube" and get what you like that you don't have.
I've got so many that I forget what I got, and since I don't have them in any kind of order, it would be a job to find out what I got; if that makes any sense. He's the only artist that I didn't run into a brick wall with, meaning this sounds just like the last one; consequently, you wont buy anything that you'll regret having bought.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, by the process of deduction, we know it wasn't because they were inferior recordings, and "Live At The Lighthouse" wasn't even in the mix of possibilities that were not released. Since we know the recordings that were not released during his lifetime, all you have to do is evaluate them.
It has been stated that his "best" recordings were not released. While you say you're not a conspiracy theorist; what kind of theorist are you? After you discover the "inferior record" statement was a flat out "Lie"; what's left?
Enjoy the music.
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O-10:
Exactly what point are you trying to make referenced Grant Green?
Cheers |
Rok, facts make their own point, do you remember "The facts mam, nothing but the facts" that's all. Once the facts are gathered, you be the judge.
Enjoy the facts. |
Fact 1. Blue Note had so many "junky musicians" that Horace Silver quit working at Blue Note.
Now it's time for a question; why did Blue Note have so many junky musicians?
Fact 2. Grant Greens best records were not released in his life time. While that has been asserted by others; you're an "aficionado", meaning if you were to evaluate the records, you would know whether or not they were inferior. If you don't feel you are capable of that, then you're on the wrong thread.
Fact 3. These so called "inferior records" wound up in Japan; did they walk?
Fact 1. + fact 2. + fact 3. = Blue Note's bottom line. They sold those records to Japan, with the stipulation, that they not be released for American consumption until after Grant Green was dead.
The reason for fact 1 is because a "junky" would sell his mama for a fix. Blue Note also had the best jazz musicians. I know Grant Green was a boss jazz musician before he went to work for Blue Note. I do not know anything about Grant Green being a junky before he went to Blue Note. St. Louis is not a big town when it comes to the grapevine, a secret like that is almost impossible to keep.
Blue Note almost kidnapped Grant Green; one listen and they knew he was boss; jazz was in his soul; I know I witnessed it personally, many times.
"Junky" jazz musicians who are some of the very best, who will sign almost anything when their "Jones come down" "Ma jones coming down on me"
There it is Rok, and I didn't even have to multiply or do "long division".
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, I will most certainly drink to both of those.
Enjoy the music.
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*****
Fact 1. Blue Note had so many "junky musicians" that Horace Silver quit working at Blue Note.
Now it's time for a question; why did Blue Note have so many junky musicians?*****
I have read that about Silver, so I assume it's true.
Why so many Junkies at Blue Note? Jazz was lousy with Junkies at one time. It was part of the life style. Blue Note was the most prominent Jazz label, so, where else would you expect to find them? At Deutsche Grammophon?
Some folks who are real Geniuses in one endeavor, can be total jerks, even child-like, in other areas. Even Coltrane was affected by that stuff.
A better question would be, "why didn't more players follow the lead of Horace Silver". Wno, btw, played for many years. Long after the weak minded had passed from this earth.
Cheers |
*****
Fact 2. Grant Greens best records were not released in his life time. While that has been asserted by others; you're an "aficionado", meaning if you were to evaluate the records, you would know whether or not they were inferior. If you don't feel you are capable of that, then you're on the wrong thread.*****
I have never read anything from the folks at Blue Note stating why the sessions were not released. I do know that all artist record stuff that is delayed or even never released. We are talking about this now in regards to Prince, and I think he controlled his own stuff. Ran his own studio.
The Beatles had stuff that was not released. Some movies are made and never released. Some sub par music and movies are released and they often kill the careers of many budding actors and artists.
When you consider how these people were paid. I don't get any sense of what could have been the motivation for Blue Note to hold back the release. These were not Rock recordings. There wasn't that much money at stake. It's not like famous painters whose work increases in value after they die. If you own a Monet, it is unique, the only one he painted. The probably made thousand of copies of 'Matador' in one day. And, they have not sold them all yet.
Cheers
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Just because he was from St Louis and had a rough life does not make his music any more than what it is.
'Live at the Lighthouse' commits the cardinal sin or being BORING. You know they are going to play before they play it. I could not stay focused long enough to listen to it.
BTW, I see where the AMG liked it. Just proves there is no accounting for taste.
Cheers |
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Rok, would you please read that post again. Maybe you can answer how the records got to Japan. What the holy smoly does Prince have to do with Grant Green, Since you threw in The Beatles, why quit there, lets throw in the Pope.
Just because he was from St Louis and had a rough life does not make his music any more than what it is.
Who said he had a rough life? Bush of the beer Bushes is from St. Louis; everybody from St. Louis did not have a rough life. What's a rough life got to do with his music? Miles Davis is from St. Louis, and his daddy was a dentist; Miles got almost anything he wanted. His daddy paid for Juilliard school of music plus expenses, he was from St. Louis. I don't get the connection of music and rough life, could you elaborate?
In regard to staying focused, I can plainly see that; you're not focused enough for me to know what you're talking about.
Enjoy the music |
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Now that you've made the Prince connection, can you make the Pope connection?
Enjoy the music. |
*****
Who said he had a rough life? ******
You did. He died young, strung out on drugs and broke. Ooops, almost forgot, he was cheated and made to take drugs by the folks at Blue Note.
*****
What's a rough life got to do with his music? *****
On this thread, everything. You don't examine his music so much as feel sorry for him.
*****
What the holy smoly does Prince have to do with Grant Green, Since you threw in The Beatles, why quit there, lets throw in the Pope.*****
My way of saying, that if GAME CHANGERS, like Prince, The Beatles and probably every artist that has ever recorded, including Elvis, Chuck Berry and Miles, can have unreleased material, what is the big deal about a run of the mill R&G guitar player from St Louis having the same?
It and he are not that significant. He did not change the direction of Jazz. He was not Charles Christian. Not Miles. Not even Chuck Berry. If he had not lived, how would Jazz be different today? It wouldn't!
Made a few nice albums, but a lot of 'lame' LPs in the 70's. Not my words, professional reviewers say this.
Get over it. He was not that important. He should thank Blue Note.
That's what I meant to say, or words to that effect.
Cheers
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Frogman, and Rok, I never realized how good Grant Green's records were until now. I knew he was a good jazz musician, but I didn't realize how good until now. Maybe it's because I had heard him live without paying a fortune.
I don't know when or how he became a "junky"; I "strongly suspect" it had something to do with his associates at Blue Note records. Why did they, the junkys that is, wind up "poverty stricken"? Although they were some of the most talented jazz musicians who ever lived, they wound up poverty stricken. One of the reasons for certain is; they became junkys, but junkys with good business managers don't become "poverty stricken"; therefore I advise all junkys to get good business managers, and set a little aside for that "need a fix bad" day.
Enjoy the music.
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Art Blakey would not have wound up poverty stricken, if he had quit hitting on "Nica". He didn't realize she was a 'Baroness' or didn't know what that meant. Rich Americans pay a fortune to get a title like that by marrying someone with a title. She was trying to help manage his affairs, and he was hitting on the lady. She could take a bath with nothing but a cigarette in her cigarette holder, listening to Monk and Miles, or whoever happened to be jamming downstairs, and no one would dare take a peek. She went to the worst neighborhoods in New York ( so bad that cops wouldn't even go to them), and let the winos guard her Bentley while she took in the set at a reserved table.
It would seem that would have told Blakey something; but no, not until the lady got tired of trying to help him, and I don't think he realized even then what went down; but I was told that drummers aren't the brightest bulbs.
Enjoy the music.
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This is the day after an all night stand of partying, and nobody wanted to go home; it's around 7 AM and here we are sitting around "Maude's Flat", "whipped" meaning too tired, but not wanting to go home. There's a guy there I call "Rapscallion" because he's forever rapping, and everybody is listening because he's the only person with enough energy to rapp. Nobody knows what he's talking about, but he's talking fast and hip; consequently, it must be about something, but nobody has the mental agility to figure out what it is. BLUES IN MAUD'S FLAT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuJKFQ-OqPoEnjoy the music. |
Without any particular wish to try to establish the exact meaning of the term 'important' , on this forum or yet in jazz history, or to start another discussion, I would certainly called the sound and music of G.Green important. If that is any proof, it seems that obviously there were other 'important' or less 'important' players who thought the same and created some fine music with him, or were at least moved by his playing. Personal tastes a side, I think that there are only a few names whos absence in world of jazz would be felted in a way that today the music would be different without them, but to speculate about it seems absurd. Here is one song on album of Orpheus's friend https://youtu.be/vVMMcQspCDs |
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Alex I appreciate you coming out in my favor, but I have totally disregarded them dudes in regard to "Grant Green". I'm trying to find out what the recording quality is on "The Complete Blue Note recordings of Grant Green with Sonny Clark"
Once before I got a long compilation of Chico Hamilton's albums, that had lousy recording quality. I got a 3 sound compilation with the same problem. It's a waste of time and money to get anything with lousy recording quality.
I want all 0f those albums that were released late and went to Japan, those are the ones I don't have. Let me know if you got a lead on those.
Enjoy the music.
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Alex, you are officially one of the original aficionados, therefore what ever you say is important "is important". We write the rules here.
Enjoy the music.
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Once again, grounded and significant exchange of ideas seems to get foiled by the tendency to want to take sides in a discussion/debate so as to somehow garner supporters. Alex, as usual, makes some very good, reasonable and evenhanded comments; there is nothing that he wrote re Grant Green that I can disagree with. Moreover, as I interpret his comments, I don’t see that he is coming out in anybody’s favor. He can, of course speak for himself on that point; although it’s not really that important. I see nothing in what he wrote that buttresses O-10’s comments about Green that have been the cause of the disagreement. I have repeatedly said that he was a great player, but that his later recordings were not as good as his classics. Rok has said essentially the same thing. Neither of us has said that he wasn’t an important player. I don’t want to speak for him, and only as way of example, but Rok’s comment was simply that he wasn’t THAT important that he was a game changer. I agree, although I believe that he was, in fact, an influential player. Why this opinion about this player should cause such a disturbance is what is, in fact, most ridiculous of all. So, why keep the commentary in a "me against them" kind of realm? I have said this countless times: there can be disagreement without disrespect if everyone is comfortable and confident in their opinions. Just don’t expect silence when disrespect is directed towards a dissenting opinion. What is this "true aficionado" (or not) branding bullshit? It will lead to nothing positive and is precisely the kind of thing that keeps things mired in negativity.
I find it ironic that a music that is so replete with subtlety and nuance should receive so little of the same by some of the commentary here. Why does it have to mean when someone says "I don’t like recording x by artist z" that everything else by the artist is thought to be no good? A ridiculous and very sophomoric notion. The post before this one says it all in my opinion; how pathetic. As always, I hope we can do better.
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****Today there was a crisis here in my home. 'Our' cat that has set up homestead in our back yard, cleaned out his bowl of food, and then walked right out into the yard and killed a bird at the bird bath. My wife wants to kill the cat. i asked, why? She was just doing what cats do. They kill things. That's what they do. If she was bigger, she would kill us.****
Like a welcomed and well timed few beats of silence in the middle of a very busy trumpet (I don't dare say guitar) solo, my nomination for best post of the last few days 😜
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I asked this guy "qdrone" what stuff to avoid buying by Grant Green because he said it was inferior. This is what he posted 01-23-2011 at 1:29PM;
Qdrone, could you name the stuff to avoid, I would like to buy it.
qdrone
799 posts
01-23-2011 1:29pm
Anything that says never released or only released in Japan. Or in box sets where you have newly discovered tracks (Mosiac has one or two sets with Green) I actualy posted for everyone to understand the times these recordings were made,heroin was problem among many musicians,I'm sorry that your so full of yourself that you thought i was just responding to you.
Maybe "Qdrone" changed his moniker, or left, I haven't seen him in a long time; but that was stuff to avoid.
llMusic Review by Stephen Thomas Erlewine [-]
Mosaic released a four-disc box set titled The Complete Blue Note With Sonny Clark in 1991, rounding up everything that the guitarist and pianist recorded together between 1961 and 1962. Blue Note's 1997 version of the set, The Complete Quartets With Sonny Clark, trims Mosaic's collection by two discs, offering only the quartet sessions (the Ike Quebec sessions, Born to Be Blue and Blue and Sentimental, are available on individual discs). In some ways, this actually results in a more unified set, since it puts Green and Clark directly in the spotlight, with no saxophone to complete for solos, but it doesn't really matter if the music is presented as this double-disc set, the four-disc box, or the individual albums -- this is superb music, showcasing the guitarist and pianist at their very best. All of the sessions are straight-ahead bop but the music has a gentle, relaxed vibe that makes it warm, intimate, and accessible. Grant and Clark's mastery is subtle -- the music is so enjoyable, you may not notice the deftness of their improvisation and technique -- but that invests the music with the grace, style, and emotion that distinguishes The Complete Quartets. Small group hard bop rarely comes any better than this.
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Rok, and Frogman, we seem to have some contradiction here; could you guys help me out, I don't know what to do.
Somewhere I saw the Mosaic sets were the ones to own, but Qdrone said these were the ones to avoid, because "junky" Grant Green had made inferior music that could not be released, and he got that from very reliable sources. Now we find all that music "walked" to Japan; is that right Rok? That was the music that you said was not released, and what's the problem everybody has music that wasn't released.
My way of saying, that if GAME CHANGERS, like Prince, The Beatles and probably every artist that has ever recorded, including Elvis, Chuck Berry and Miles, can have unreleased material, what is the big deal about a run of the mill R&G guitar player from St Louis having the same?
Now I am really confused; someone said avoid the inferior junky music, meaning the Mosaic boxed sets, someone else says "So what", I'm still saying the same thing I said on 01-23-2011, and I'm still trying to track that music down so I can buy it.
Enjoy the music.
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Is this Jazz for aficionados, or The Grant Green fan club??
Just asking.
Cheers |
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You two "Snarky Puppies" are not fooling anybody; you use to speak for Learsfool, now you're speaking for Rok, and neither one of you completely responded to Alex's post, and now you don't respond to mine, when all I'm trying to do is get the lies in regard to Grant Green's music straight so that I can buy the right CD's.
When I show you a review of the disputed music, you say I'm running a Grant Green fan club, when all I want is just a little friendly advice.
Enjoy the music.
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Ok, O-10, lets play; if you insist. Remember, as I said before, "don't expect silence when there is disrespect directed at a dissenting opinion". Now, I realize that you need this bizarre interaction for reasons that only your shrink can figure out (although I have some pretty good ideas); so, let's just say I'm trying to help you out. Let's go slowly and step by step for the sake of clarity: I have tremendous respect for Alex and his contributions here, so.... ****neither one of you completely responded to Alex's post**** - How exactly did I not respond to Alex's post? What part of his post did I not address? With specifics please. ****and now you don't respond to mine, **** Seriously? Your posts can be so convoluted and confused that it's practically impossible to respond to them. However, as I see it, I responded in a perfectly clear way to what I believe is the heart of the matter re this ridiculous Grant Green business. I will try it one last time. My thoughts about Green; in a nutshell: Really good guitar player who was, I would say, a significant influence on players like Wes Montgomery and George Benson; players who would go on to be the highest profile guitar players in the emerging funk/soul-jazz movement. For a variety of reasons, his recordings toward the end of his career where not, in my opinion, on the same level as his classics. Overall, as has been pointed out, not a "game changer" in the overall scheme of the music. - So, how is any of that "a lie"? A strange claim for someone who so often hides behind the "subjectivity" smoke screen. - If by "lie" you refer to the issue of which records were released, when, which made it to Japan, etc. I am frankly not interested in those details. As usual you sadly miss an opportunity to learn something about the music that is much more important: what is it that defines a truly great musician? what does it mean to have had an influence on the music? what is influence? what is it that shapes careers in music? what is it the sustains careers in music? how does the world of the music business work? Oh, yeah....and, God forbid....what is it that some listeners don't like about Green’s later records and why? - Why the leaning on positive "reviews" by some unknown writer somewhere in the e-universe? Who cares? If you will give so much weight to these, why do you dismiss the ones critical of Green's late recordings? As has been said before, be confident with your opinions, respect those of others; and, if you really want to do something productive, try and understand why some may disagree with you. Lastly, I would like to bring up an issue that I have refrained from bringing up for quite some time out of.....yes, you heard it here, O-10.....respect for you as the OP. However, you have done such a good job of eroding any semblence of adherence to the notion of respect that....what the hell! It also goes to some comments I made recently that, in retrospect, I probably should not have made; but, like the guy hitting his head on the wall, well....sometimes the absurdity of it all is simply too much to take. I refer to the incongruesness and a kind of contradiction in the use of the word "aficionado" in conjunction with "jazz". I have always found it to be a rather curious choice of words for the subject at hand. From my vantage point, the main fuel for these ridiculous arguments is your insistence on personalizing matters; not only with your "hits below the belt" (disrespect), but also with your emphasis on "personal" accounts about musicians. These "personal" accounts are often peppered with words and phrases intended to evoke a certain feeling of closeness to and supposed experience and familiarity with the musicians and their culture; phrases like "phaking the phunk", "dis here", "jam", "boss", "gitin down", and many more like them. But, here's the curious thing: jazz musicians don't talk like that. What is this about? I will concede that perhaps these are simply O-10'isms and nothing more; but, curious nonetheless. Please enlighten me. I realize that I have thrown a lot your way. A lot of things to address, but you wanted to play. I am confident that if you take it step by step you can do it. I know you can. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx9xO98kcBU |
Frogman, you might as not even read my post, because you write anything you want anyway, that has no relation to my post.
My last post was about "records"; those are the things that existed before CD's were invented. They were in Japan before Grant Green died; they were in the hands of Japanese collectors, while fans like me were unaware of their very existence, how do you explain that? We did not know about their existence till after Grant Green was dead and long buried.
Now I guess you and Rok will give me a perfectly good explanation that will include Prince, Elvis, Miles, Chuck Berry, and you might as well throw in the Pope. Now you say you're not concerned about records when that's exactly what my post was about. Since you and Rok are in lockstep, you can answer for him.
I saw Grant Green the person many times, I even talked to him face to face, I liked his music very much, I should have been able to purchase his records; they should have been in my collection, not some Japanese collection. The question is why? Why were they not available for purchase in the United States where the man lived and died, where Rok who is so patriotic that if I say anything that might hint at failure of the government is all over me, but he doesn't see anything wrong with records that were not made available to citizens of this country, but were made available to citizens of Japan.
Enjoy the music.
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Jon Hendricks: Why on earth would it suffer the same fate as the Bey Sisters? Great stuff indeed. Rok, you may not recall, but I posted that very Freddie Freeloader clip a couple of years ago (!). And, coincidentally and if memory serves, I posted some Manhattan Transfer in my comments about The Bey Sisters around the same time; we must have been on a vocal group binge at the time. Great clips. Jon Hendricks kills me. BTW, re Benson's singing: one of the reasons that he rose and became a star in the soul/jazz guitar scene and Green lost some steam; imo. There is a long tradition of vocalists taking improvised instrumental solos and scatting them and/or putting lyrics to them. Manhattan Transfer's rendition of Coleman Hawkins' famous solo on "Body And Soul", long considered one of the milestone recorded jazz solos (and available here as well as Japan : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SAqUNlWUxlA****Since you and Rok are in lockstep.....**** Horrors! I don't think so. When I can get Rok to agree with me about the sound of audio cables....then, maybe 😄. O-10, it's simpy called respect and confidence in one's opinions. You can join the party anytime. |
Frogman, the subject is "records"; they are those black disks we used to play before CD's, remember them? They were supposed to have been unfit for release. Now we find they were among the best Grant Green ever made. If they had been released here in the United States, Grant Green might still be alive, he was just a little older than me, and I'm still kicking, unless this is a ghostwriter post.
He left his hospital bed, against the doctor's orders, to perform, because he needed the money. Now you and Rok argued that since Blue Note's bottom line was money, if the records had been any good they would have been released; now we find they were released for "Japanese" consumption. Apparently Blue Note's bottom line, and Grant Green's bottom line were not in harmony.
Now I know you and Rok want to move on. After you and Rok respond with some sensible answers we can move on; but I'm not going to gloss over the injustice that Grant Green suffered.
Enjoy the music
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O-10, I have no way of knowing (and I’m not sure you do either) whether the records you speak of (and yes, I know what lps are, I have 3500 of them) where actually released, or whether they are copies that, as I tried (in vain) to describe to you previously, can survive a move by the record co. to stop release (Prince’s "Black Album"). However, perhaps this may mean something to you; it does to me:
In 1991, I toured Japan with a major symphony orchestra (first of seven trips there). A colleague who was also going on this tour had setup for himself a minor "business" of bringing along two or three flutes in order to sell to a dealer in Japan with whom he had a relationship. At the risk of alarming the pc crowd, I will point out that Japanese collectors are a unique breed; they are passionate about collecting musical instruments and records (among other things). I cannot directly speak to the records side of all this, but I can tell you from direct experience that they will pay considerably more for a musical instrument than what it will fetch in the USA; not because it is a superior, or even a good instrument, but simply because it may be a certain vintage, a certain serial number that completes a series, was manufactured on the same day that the Japanese prime minister farted in public, etc, Long story short: I was able to sell an instrument that was inferior and mediocre at best for $8100 when it would have fetched about $4500 in the states. Why? Because he already had instruments in the serial#2000 series and in the #4000 series; none in the #3000 series like mine. Extrapolate from this what you will. Not much, I suspect.
Btw, who exactly says they were Green’s best? Somebody who happens to post on the Internet? Seriously? What does O-10 think? And since you insist on debating the issue, more importantly, why are they his best? I know what I think.
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