JADIS DEFY7, can not get it to sing

You are wasting your time with those cheap solid state preamps.  That Jadis amp was very expensive back in its day. at least 20 years ago.  You need a good tube preamp, and no cheap preamp will make your Jadis sound any better.  The Mitsubishi is cheap mid fi as is the Onkyo.  You set yourself up for failure the way you went about this.  

I had a Defy 7. One of the better tube amps I owned, or borrowed. Extremely high input impedance ( around 500 K ). Sounded great with matching Jadis preamp. There are straps under the chassis to get a good match between it and the speakers it is driving. A very complex amplifier. It went through several revisions, as I knew the importer, and got the scoop. My opinion : Sell the Defy, as you will not get it to do what it is capable of doing. I 2nd stereo5, as you are wasting your time and money on those preamps. As far as you coining the phrase " shoot out " in 2000, I, and my audio buddies and partners, have been doing shoot outs, and using the term, since the late 60s. So, I am sorry to burst your bubble. Maybe you can become " coined ", as being the 1st individual, to use a cheap solid state preamp, with a Jadis Defy 7 ( I am sorry, I had to ). Enjoy ! MrD.

OK GOT IT. I do recall, either the seller of some Augonners mentioning , that the Jadis will need a  great preamp, maybe a  jadis as 1st choice, 
Well I do not have $6K++ fora  used jadis pre.
I am going to sell it, It sat quiet  for the seller, as he had a  Jadis JA 200 mono blocks. I did not use it, as the 2 cheap chinese  tube amps do nothing for this amp.
I am going ss intergrated until i can get some cash together fora  used Jadis intergrated, like the DA50.
Thanks for the honest fair and for real answers to my problem. 
I plan to sell it as $3500 and I will pay shipping.
Audiongon and Ebay.
1st I will call the Jadis dealer in california, maybe they know someone willing to make a  swap for a  Jadis intergrated.

sic
read
I recall when i 1st purchased the amp both the seller and some AUDIOgon-ERS mentioned/suggested to me, that the Defy will require a  class A powerful preamp to make the amp work. I did not fully believe and hoped i could work around that issue, I was wrong and this error will cost me.
Thanks to the honest replies that I should sell the amp.
Paul
New Orleans

Keep the amp and sell every preamp you have including the ones on the way use that money to buy a good used tube preamp on Audiogon, It doesn't have to be a Jadis. You made a mistake pairing a bad preamp with your amp, the preamp has a huge influence on overall sound quality.

So you bought the amp 11 years ago, what preamp were you pairing it with prior to the Ming-da? Have you ever gotten good sound in the time you've owned the amp? Also what speakers are you driving?

The OP, in his initial post, mentions the speakers he is using. All that is needed is to read.....imo

I would wait until the Onkyo preamp arrives next week. I don't expect it to be a perfect  match for the Jadis, but there are unexplainable things in audio and you may be surpsised at what you hear...Of course, don't spend your money on the Mitsubishi preamp... 

No it is a MARANTZ 90's modle pre which is on the way. , The Onkyo was a  intergrated, which i canceled purchasing. 
The Mitsubishi pre I also canceled.
Even if the marantz pre produces superior sound over the bland flat chinese tube pre (I bought it as it mentioned it was a  copy of the Jadis 200 pre curcuit, the trans in the Lite LS9 weigs about 1 lb = has no dynamics, no fidelity, no nothing, but does have 10 tubes in the design, which is another reason i bought it  and was cheap at $600). 
<<Thanks for all the helpful ideas, but after pondering my situation, I plan to sell the Jadis Defy.. 
It is too heavy for me to move, and too big for my listening room. 
I started my audiophile journey witha   jadis Orch Refer and now hope to go back to a  Jadis intergrated.
The Jadis Defy is too much for my needs. 
Sadly I never got to enjoy the big amp, but thats my mistake in not believing folks who mentioned I will need a  good pre to bring the Defy to life.
I will use a  david Hefler 220 amp with the Marantz pre , until I can find a   jadis intergrated, at a price I can budget. 

mozartfan, when I owned it ( for about a year's time ) it produced quite more heat, than my 100 wpc Krell KSA 100. And, because of my, admittedly, high volume levels, microphonics was a big problem ( other tube products, as well, not just the Defy ). Another poster here, on your thread, who made a comment, briefly, but deleted his post, suggested using a passive preamp. The Defy would work well with a passive, and I am currently a big advert to passive preamps ( I love my Luminous Audio unit ). But, it still is a lot of amp, and the recommendation I have, is the same. Sell it. My best to you, Enjoy ! MrD.

Yes just arrived the Marantz Pre amp, , and was looking very forwrad to hearing the amp in great sound,,,sadly the pre arrived DOA.
I requested a  partial refund from the Ebay seller. 
I'm done,
I will take the amp next week back to my Baton Rouge tech guy for a  final ck, as i only picked up the amp from his shop, and did NOT ACTUIALLY LISTEN TO IT ON  his preamp.
I want to make sure this amp is good to sell. I will place it on Ebay 
open bid $1K
Ship $200. any suggestions on how i can guarantee the amp to the buyer, will be greatly appreciated. I am  a  fair guy and want the buyer to be satisifed. 
Here I have only the tech guy in BR and can only hope  this amp is in great shape.
If the buyer was honest and he hardly used it, and i never used it , this amp should be NOS. But will have to rate it 7/10 only for AGE and NOT FOR USAGE.
any ideas appreciated.
Open bid $1K NO RESERVE. 

@mozartfan, Maybe you could explain why you continue placing blame at the Jadis’ amps feet, when you keep on describing other gear in your system that is failing...or has failed, ie the acquisition of the Marantz preamp. ( which BTW, I doubt would have been a great match up with the Jadis either!)

BTW, IF you still want a preamp suggestion for the Defy 7, I would suggest you look into a Schiit Freya +. They come in below the $1K threshold you have set and I think it would drive the Jadis well...and give you the sonic results you are hoping for. 

@mozartfan...……………...

There is a Jadis Orchestra Reference Integrated for sale on here from Brooks Berdan Audio.   They are listing it for $3749.00 and they are taking offers.  It's a brand new unit.

Using a valve amp on speakers that dip down to 3 ohm and which are only 86.5 db sensitivity is more likely to be your problem.No preamp is going to fix that.I would keep the Jadis and try some more efficient 8 ohm speakers.

I understand the SEAS Thor are demanding,
Yet my Jadis Orch Refer made great muisc with those speakers.
I sold off the orch due to the EI KT90’s going bad, and replaced with EH KT90’s.
saw the Defy up for sale in 2007 on Audiogon, and purchased.
as I  have no cash fora class A pre so for this reasion I am selling.
 am sure the amp is according to all the reviews, but its out my leauge to own.
 going back to intergrated, right where i started back in the old days.
The Defy is  for sale on my local cragslist, and will list it on ebay in 2 weeks, , start bid, no reserve $1K, 10 day list.
time to move on...........

mozartfan OP

The Jadis Defy 7 is not the amp I would recommend with these speakers, as if you look at the impedance and phase angle of your SEAS Thor MTM they are quite difficult to drive at 80-150hz and again at 3khz,
https://ibb.co/Fm8mXwD

Especially when Stereophile said this about the Jadis Defy7 in their bench test of it:

If we adopt a more stringent 1% distortion limit for maximum output, the Defy-7 reached only 12dBW, 16W.

The picture was worse still at the frequency extremes—for example, the maximum power at 20Hz for 1% THD is 9.1dBW, less than 10W, though if some sort of visual clipping limit is adopted, 17dBW, 50W was possible. The situation was no better at 20kHz, where 10dBW, 10W was the continuous power limit for 1% distortion.

These results were repeated into a 4 ohm load (remember that this is ostensibly the 4 (to 8) ohm tapping on the output transformer). With both channels driven, the result was a loss in level of between 3 and 6dB, depending on the distortion criteria.

Cheers George

Hi George, Way over my head level of understanding. Good news is I just got back fromm my tech guy in Baton Rouge . The slight hum I heard out the right channel was mainly from the pre,,,,BUT/HOWEVER there is a  MINISCLUE hum, in the jadis right,,,as i say only the vol on the powerless vol control is turned up to lowest muisc level, no one on earth can hear the hum = the amp is in PERFECT 10/10 condition. 
The LITE LS9 chinese tube pre (modled on the jadis JA200 pre,,or so they say,,has like 10 tubes) does have a  hum,,BUT/HOWVER after 3 minutes warm up (which i did not allow for at my house,,I shut it off after 1 minute) the hum (lacking some proper grounding,,,= possible the brand new cheap $5 interconnects) the hum fromn the pre completely disapears)

I am  His shop has a  old 3 way witha  a  15 inch woofer, 
The amp WORKD, 10/10,,I am hestitant to sell it now that i acutally heard this amp in performance,,and can not wait til my spade wire end post arrives fromk ebay so i can take the bi wire from each speaker, join them  witha  wire nut,,then takea  single wire, hook up the spade end post to the wire and now makea   single wire instead of bi,,as it is wayyyy toooo dif to twist 2 thick wires together and wrap it around the Defy's speaker post...
So I havea  ALOT going on,,but the GREQAT news is the amp  has a perfect (slightest hum) bill of health,,and now i am about to makea  offer on a  big tube pre amp off ebay.
I will test it out,,and seller mentions i can return if not a  match..I will give him $200 restock fee for kindness.
So the big Q is, are the old 3 ways with the 15 inch woofer a  better match, = more efficient vs my King of all speakser, the SEAS Thor's with the exteeme demand  = low efficiency???
maybe the speaker spades are in my mail box now,,,be right back,,,,,,no,,maybe tomorrow,,,I will only test the speakers when i get the copper speaker spade,,,I can not wait!!!!
Guess I may sell my brand new CAYIN EL34 25 lb amp, just arrived, has a weird 220 plug,,,seller is sending a  adaptor for my stepdown trans,,,,

If the Cayin 25 lb intergrated sounds OK = some bass, great mids, sweet highs,,I will keep the cain and sell the Jadis,,,all is ????, = open possibilites at this moment. 
But as i say, the jadis is really LIKE NEW as the Audiogon seller back in 2007 never used the Defy and i have not either,,so its reallya  10/10 brand new Queen of all Amps, The Jadis single mono block.
I wil also mod my Thors,,,taking out the bottom W18 6/5 woofer and replacing witha  a EXCEL (The King of all speakers =the SEAS EXCEL)W22, 8 inch woofer for a  added few HZ's on the bottom,,and maybe addinga  Mundorf Silver Oil cap , just 1, to the tweeter.
Lots of plans,,  all is ???? at this point.
I was very concerned when i 1st heard the hum after arriving home last week,,,which is why i drove back up today to listen at the tech's table. 
He agrees the amp is 10/10 ,,,now of course to you perfectionist audiophile troops,,its not OK, as the hum, ever ever so sligyht, should not be there. 
I say, who really cares abouta  hum so slight,,that when the muisc kicks in at vol level 1, the hum is IMPOSSIBLE to note.
I am nota  perfectionist audiophile,,i am only interested in life like sound stage. 
The thors deliver this image perfectly. 
Bass = check
mids gorgeous,
highs super clear , distortion free , with the King  of all tweets, The Royal Millenium 

well i figured why not try to get the amp, pre , cd player up on a  bench , instead of trying to bend over breaking my back, poor eye sight,,all discombobulated,,,so i did just that,,set the Jadis Defy 7 up on a  bench with Lite tube pre Cayin CD player with high end op amps installed,,all i have to do is sway out the chinese 6922 for the Bugle Boys 6922 and hooked the speakers correctly BIWIRED,,,
Found 1 jam cd, (as all my cds are classical) , found a  Tina Marie best hits,,BAMMMM! 
Like majic, 
This Jadis Defy 7 sitting on my shelf now since 2007, is now finally SINGING gorgeous.
UNREAL, Class A sound.
Now all I have to do is upgrade at least 1 cap in my Tghors to the Mundorf silver or Mundorf Supreme and add in a  W22 8 inch 
UNREAL. 
I will now order that cayin Pre amp
Thanks
For all the great tips to help me out..
I will keep posting as changes aere made,,,Tina sounds INCREDIBLE on this Jadis Defy with EH KT90's. Bugle Boys in the 4AX7 and Bugles in the 2 AU7's. 
Tina's voice sounds just LIVE. 
Finally i  can give up my $20 computer speakers listening to past 10 yrs,,,
WOW. 

HOLD ON, SELL is off.
Yep, 
Just purchased the XIANG 728 tube pre, arriving next week, if a  no go, will return and buy a  
LEAF  Audio tube preamp.
Will report back on all the new listening seesions. 
Both pres have dual outs, So I just bought a  10 inch sub cabinet, + a  dyanco 70 watt RMS sub amp + a  excellent Cerwin Vega 10 inch woofer.
will let you guys know how the XIANG SHENG 728 responds. 
My hunch is RETURN and buy the Leaf Audio pre.
paul
new orleans

I am a bit bewildered by all your fast moves but one thing that is driving me crazy. You have a superb amp and finally have heard it sing. And yet you continue to throw a series of cheap nondescript preamps in front of it hoping for good sound. Instead of buying a bunch of different things, subwoofer, sub amp, new speakers, why not invest in a really good preamp?

@jond   +1000

OK Jon, let me try to explain this story. 
My Jadis Orch Reference delivered INCREDIBLE sound stage/dynamics, (highs a  bit STEELY/harsh, a  bit I said), as the KT90 EI Czech tubes live up to their reputation, BUT could not hold up as reliable,,unless tubes burn out/short after so many hundreds hours,,I used the jadis lightly on sound/only playing orchestra, no rock/jazz. So I could not find budget price EI's,,,, and so decided to sell the Orch , as i came into some $5K , as a  gift,,noted the4 DEFY7 for sale on audiogon, , bought it in 2006/2007,,,everyone on audiogon mentioned I will need a  *good pre*, I felt I could work around that and finda   chinese tube on ebay,,bought a  Ming DA MC7,,,after 1 minutes worth, i knew *huge mis calculation*, dumped that Ming Da at a  big loss, pd $700, sold for $350..That was 2007.
,,yes pass, nearly, or more than a decade, sitting in a  box. 
In 2018 I bought a  Lite LS9, *clone of Jadis pre amp* (??!!! Big fat LIE), finally took both pre and amp to a  tech guy here in new orleans to ck both out,,,1 month later says he had no time to * make repairs on Jadis Defy,* as his *reserach * shows the Defy has *terrible issues and needed major overhall*..I believed him,,at 1st,,then cked out baton rouge's tech studio, found only 1 with great google reviews. Drove up, and had Mark at Advanced Video ck it out,,3 weeks later, says he has it up N running....to my great surprise...got home, hooked her up,,,heard some slight ringing at opening all switches on pre + amp + cd player,,,not sure which had a  slight tiny short,,(I think it is the Lite pre),,,brought back  to Advanced,,Mark says all needs proper grounding and not to worry about the *miniscule at opening ON switchs), I agree, as the muisc plays, hum completely disapperas. 
Now I just bought a Xiang Sheng 728 for $300, which I have option to return. If this Xiang can not deliver at least 20%+ more dynamics , sound stage , make that 30% as the Lite is flat,  and just aweful cheap chinese junk,,,,which i plan to dump on ebay for whatever (pd $700), , I bought also a  Cayin MT35, as i thought I will sell the Defy and go with a  intergrated, WRONG more, as the cayin MT35 is too weak to drive the SEAS Thors. 
So I will dump that at a  huge loss, has 4 EL34's. Same seller as the Xiang Sheng, but can only return the Xiang as it comes from his California wharehouse, the Cayin shipped from china,
Long, too long story,,shortened, is this
My hunch says the Leaf Audio pre on ebay (with 2 solid reviews, both wrote me back and said its a  *solid/good pre). 
That I will return the Xiang and buy the Leaf Audio , its a  Clone of various pres, like has maranzt parts and also ideas based on Audio Reserach. 
Has 2 AU's and 2 AX's. 
(
I plan to replace with Bugle Boys and will  bring the Leaf to Mark , see if he can replace the caps with Mundorf, Silver Oil. 
And now this is the end of my journey,,,UNLESS the Leaf does not pass my critical tests,,and I have only  one  other option,,buy the Cayin CS 10 off Ebay, guy says he can let it go for $1800, and will accept return. 
Its a  besat at 50 lbs!!!!, has 4 6922;s. 
But really, don't have $1800+ $100 ship, for at least 6+ months.
If the Leaf is a  flop, and the Xiang is superior, I will repurchase the Xiang and roll the tubes and bring to Mark for upgrades. 
Which he may not agree on, as he says, alot of these so called *upgrades* are *snake oil.* 
He is of the camp, a  good cap is a good cap, no such superior sound witha  $$$$$$ Gold Silver Oil Cap from Mundorf, at least not  to his critcal hearing. 
I may go Mundorf Silver Oil, or Supreme. 
And also will upgrade my Hovalnd caps in Thors to Mundorf Supremes, the C2,C3 and the R2, as per Madisound tech.
I will report back when the Xiang is tested. 
Not even sure if I will need to roll the EH KT90's, to EL34's, as some claim the EL34's are the most muiscal tube around. 
But thats another $$$$$$. 
This hobby can really  get expensive if one is not careful. ...

If I had received such a gift, I would have looked at new and used preamps in the 4K range and spend 1K on a power cord for it. 

@mozartfan  You just posted an interesting point. You have found yourself in a difficult position...because you acquired an excellent amp and spent $$ to do it, without realizing that the amp is only half the picture at best. I wonder how many folks have done exactly the same thing, blown their budget on the amp ( or the preamp) and had noting left to complete the picture. This is certainly one of the 'traps' with buying separate pieces. In your case, this has led you to incorrectly assume that the amp is at fault, when in fact the upstream gear is at issue ( some, or all of it...starting with the preamp). 

I read your post and I don't think you really understood mine. Stop flipping cheap supposed clones of well known preamps. Save your money. Use the Xiang for 6 months or whatever while you save up then sell it. Use that money lets call it $1500-2000. Stop looking on Ebay for Chinese preamps with good user reviews and instead look at used preamps here or at USA Audiomart. Find a really good used preamp and buy it. Looking right now here are several at or below your projected budget that you could buy right now:
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649552585-herron-audio-vtsp-1a-tube-preamplifier/
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649553582-docet-lector-zoe-tube-linestage-preamp/
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649554216-audio-note-m2-phono-preamplifier-w-balance-control-and...
Those are just three examples all below $1500 that would likely kill any of the preamps you've mentioned and be a good match with your amp. Obviously in 6 months they will be gone but other good used preamps will be available.

The Xiang 728 arrived, and after 10 minutes of Faith Hill, its going back, as one buyer on ebay wrote back after i read his comment/review on the CLASS A Single Ended tube pre , which he liked, and said he once owed the Xiang and felt it was flat = no dynamics. I quickly in less than 5 minutes, agreed. 
Its a cheap chinese preamp. 
What I did discover in the session, is that the Jadis is dead quiet,,all along it was the Lite LS9 (Jadis clone) that has ground issues, which i will give  to my tech guy in baton Rouge to repair and sell in his shop, at whatever price, and he keeops some commission, + I will dump my brand new Cayin MT35 on hin to dump for whatever,,hoping for $400, paid $650+ $150 ship from china..The Xiang is going back and will put that $300 towards my final pre amp , the Class A LEAF AUDIO. 
Has 6 Leaf Audio caps, which i will swap out and place in Mundork's Supreme or Silver Oil. My Tech guy in BR liked the payout from the pic,but adds *not sure how it sounds*..also I learned from my painter who knows alittle about stereo's , says add 4 more spades on the  biwire speaker cables from the Thor, as jumping both high/low together may  not allow the FQ's/HZ's to brethe properly, besides the Jadis has  biwire posts. 
So makes sense to buy 4 more spades (which are on order) and biwire. This may have flatened the repsonse from both preamps. Regardless, it does not subtract much, both are too flat for my taste, based on my 6 yrs experience with the Jadis Orch Reference (EI KT90's)  which delivered like like vocals, sounds stage, It was like the band was playing right in   the listening room.

So the Defy is dead quiet and this is indeed grat news.
Can't reture the Xiang yet, as seller says he needs to give me a  contact code to return,,,meanwhile the Leaf Audio pre offer at $475 is gone, now its not even $499,  , lists now at $519 + $80 ship/china. 
I could wait for black Friday and get it  lower,,,,,,at this point I'll pay the $500, as my hunch says , based on both ebay buyers writing back with thumbs up, ,,,
My paypal is maxed, so I was hoping to hurry and return the Xiang,,but seems it may be another week before i can make the Leaf purchase. 
The Leaf has 2 outs, so finally i get to work in a  sub,,which arrives tomorrow, a  sub cabinet + Dayton 70 Watt RMS amp both from parts express, and a  used, excellent condition Cerwin Vega 10 inch red rubber surround as the sub.
SWEET.
I stand by my opinion the SEAS Thor kit is the finest reproducion for music.
I had the Philips 2 ways, from the early 1980's and reproduced excellent sound  in that epoch,,,but next to the Thors, I could clearly hear  their weakness.

I'll  post a  comment when the Leaf arrives. about 2/3 weeks from today. 
System will be 
Cayin CD17 has  6 6922's + new high tech opamps
Jadis Defy 7 Bugle Boys front/EH KT90's power..
Speakser Thors, will possibly add new Mundorf caps to C2 and C3 anda  new R2 resistor as per Madisound tech suggesion.
With the Leaf Audio Class A pre has  2 AU7, 2 AX7;s , both pairs  will be rolled to Bugle Boys,  + caps replaced to Mundorfs, Supreme/or Silver Oil. 
Amazing this Jadis has sat in my room, with a  sheet over it for all these years, and has no issues at all. 
This amp is most likely 15+ yrs , and is dead quiet. 
This beauty now sits on a  bench shelf, waiting for the preamp, ,,,,,finally my journey for class A sound imaging is nearing victory ,,,,I can see Mt Everest peak just over the ridge,,,,

here is a  link to the Leaf, not sure if it will load here on audiogon

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HiFi-Tube-Preamplifier-Class-A-Single-ended-XLR-Balanced-Audio-Preamp-ARC-LS22/254012527611?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908131621%26meid%3D54ce26a9163149108d69c76f8aedc39d%26pid%3D100678%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D10%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D254002285514%26itm%3D254012527611%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100678.m3607&_trkparms=pageci%3Aa768d4d4-f543-11e9-8620-74dbd180deb6%7Cparentrq%3Af69e9d4116d0a4ea9b234e0bfffbedcb%7Ciid%3A1

@mozartfan   I don't know anything about the Leaf preamp...but I do know that the little Schitt Freya+ that I suggested before is a very good preamp for the $$ ( friend owns one and drives his ARC amp beautifully!). Any reason why you would not consider the Schitt? ( except for maybe the name, LOL). 

Cheap Chinese knock off that will make your Jadis amp sound like crap. You need to spend at least a few grand on a preamp worthy of the Jadis. The Chinese crap you are looking at is just that, crap.

At this point, I'm not looking for Class A sound,,I made a  bad move selling my Jadis Orch Refer, which had a amp + pre all in one.

I hold the idea that intergrated are superior to separates. But again, its my opinion. So I have to deal with what i have on the table, with no budget over $600.
I drew a  line in the sand.
I'm tight on audio budget.
I'm past 60, and starting to tighten the audio budget. 
The Leaf will be my final purchase..unless i can get a  buyer for the Jadis Defy and put that cash into a Jadis intergrated,,,but thats all hypothetical. 
Got to deal with the now moment.
I have Class A speakers SEAS Thor
Class A CD Player Cayin CD17, with bugle boys 6922;s. 
Jadis defy7 Class A amp. 
The Ebay descrip says *Class A tube pre amp*. 
From the looks of the guys, she  is nice, with those 6 nice caps , just waiting for Mundorf's. 
The Leaf is on the way, pulled the triger this morning, $600 (includes ship). 
Should be here next week. The Xiang arrived in 3 or 4 days!!! from china, DHL, quicker that my California ebay purchases.
Now grant it, the other 2 chinese pres, did not have the advantge of biwire set up.
My hunch says binding both outs together, somehow interfers(hampers FQ flow patterns) with the xover in the Thor's biwire set up.
additionally , the Jadis's biwire output was *limited* by not utilizing that bi option.
Not sure, 
So the Leaf will have the biwire set up, giving it full possibilities, nothing holding back.
I will  make a  honest UNBIASED>fair>critque of the Leaf, with the cheap stock russian tubes (has 4 6922's) and  rolling  with the Amperex , which i have at least 8+ Amperex on hand, Bugle Boys. I noted how Bugle's made a  nice pop in dynamics with  the Jadis Orch Refer.
...,,I think this Leaf is a  new offer, as the 2 ebay comments are both this year. 
It is based on the ARC LS model. 

mozartfan at this point I wish you good luck your mind is obviously set on what you want to do. I hope the Leaf is the preamp you've been searching for and perhaps selling the Jadis is not the worst idea. No point in keeping a high end amp and not surrounding it with gear that lets it show its best.

stereo5"Cheap Chinese knock off that will make your Jadis amp sound like crap. You need to spend at least a few grand on a preamp worthy of the Jadis. The Chinese crap you are looking at is just that, crap."

This is vile, hateful, prejudiced language, the wholesale, unconsidered association of Chinese manufactured equipment with crap when there is plenty of electrocrap manufactured in you're "Western World" that you believe has achieved some sort of  unusual excellence and superiority.

@clearthink I don't think that is the case here the various preamps in question were literally billed as reproductions of famous preamps and are very inexpensive hence "cheap knockoff". The OP's continuing dissatisfaction with said preamps reinforces this. Sure there is good Chinese gear being produced but still a lot of cheap and cheaply made crap.

@clearthink...……………………….

First, think clearly.  The thread is about purchasing many cheap preamps, the one in question being around $500.00.  What do you think you are going to get for $500.00  from a Chinese company no one ever heard of that is trying to clone an expensive ARC preamp for a fraction of the price?    Why don't you buy one and if isn't a piece of crap, I'll buy it from you?

Second, I do not need to be schooled by you and I have nothing against Chinese goods.  My Golden Ear Triton Reference speakers and Triton One speakers are BOTH made in China (but they don't sound like crap).

"This is vile, hateful, prejudiced language, the wholesale, unconsidered association of Chinese manufactured equipment".  My post was neither vile or hateful or prejudiced, you are trying to make something that isn't there.  The preamp was a knockoff piece which is illegal everywhere except probably china.  Get off your high horse.

Stereo5, I feel your wording, and attitude, to be very offensive. That would be like me saying, I do not like the SQ of Mac amplifiers using autoformers ( which is true ), but, understand those that do like them, as yourself. I also feel all tube preamps " color " the music, as I use a passive device, but again, I understand why folks prefer them. You obviously have very little personal use of some of these so called Chinese made clones, so how can you comment. Besides, I know some folks who would not purchase your speakers, for the very reason you put down this " Leaf " product; " Made in China ". Just not justified, imo.....I apologize if I hurt your feelings in any way. Audio, and more specifically, music listening, should be fun, and positive shares, instead of blatant put downs, are needed here, on the 'Gon. Enjoy ! MrD.

What is needed is truth.  Many Chinese factories make knock offs using designs that they have illegally copied(or stolen to be more specific) and then flood the market with them.  They have often times used cheaper parts and such, and the results are undercutting the very companies that they have stolen from.
 
Cable companies are another favourite target, but of course it’s not limited to the audio world.  It’s a relief that finally the American government has told China to stop behaving this way and has initiated tariffs to back up their position.

@mrdecibel ................

I put down the Chinese preamp because it is a cheap imitation, knock off which is probably illegal, nothing more and nothing less. If you can’t see that, then you are blind. Putting a 500.00 preamp with an amp that cost more than 5K when new is just plain silly and will not yield good sound. I purchased a cheap Chinese hybrid integrated back in 2006. It was a Yaquin. After using it for 4 days, it caught fire and the manufacturer refused to warranty it. It went out in the trash, hence “cheap Chinese junk”. I am willing to bet that more than 90% of us here would not do what the OP proposes.   Regarding my system, no worries you don’t like it.  Right now I am loving the sound of my McIntosh MR88 tuner playing through my McIntosh C2500 tube preamp, into my McIntosh MC302 300wpc  amp WITH autoformers and listening through my Golden Ear Triton References. Breathtaking sound to be sure.    

Why don’t you try this: purchase the Dartzeel clone that is selling for $1200.00. It must be a real bargain as the real amp goes for something like 17K. The real Dartzeel uses 4 caps larger than soda cans. The clone uses caps smaller than my finger. I am sure it will sound just as good (not).

stereo5"I put down the Chinese preamp because it is a cheap imitation, knock off which is probably illegal, nothing more and nothing less. If you can’t see that, then you are blind."

I am not blind my vision and hearing are both exceptional and you’re frequent, repeated, incessant hate filled attacks on Chinese products reflects a deeply rooted prejudice, intolerance, and ignorance of cultures, languages, and practices different from you’re own and if this product is illegal in any way you are free to report it to the relevant authorities for proiper remedial action but of course you will not do that you would rather spread you’re distaste for things Asian hear!

Notice I do not say that those who disagree with me are stupid which is basically what stereo5 uses for reasoning, logic, and argumentation!

stereo5, whatever dude......handbags are an excellent example of copying a design. I see nothing wrong with it. It gives women, and possibly, some men, satisfaction, that they can own a $3500. look alike for under $100. If you look at the parts in this Leaf unit, I would suspect it would cost a few thousand, if it was built here. As far as using many more " smaller sized capacitors ", many designers feel this is superior ( Steve McCormack might have been the 1st to do this, as far as I know ). And copying designs ? Stewart Hegeman; Matti Otala; and a few others, whose circuit designs have been copied, and appeared, in so many American made products. No where in the Leaf ad, does it suggest, it is the equal of the Audio Research LS 22, of which it's circuit was copied. BTW, I have no reason to purchase any amplifier at this time, as I am very happy with the collection I have, specifically, a pair of mono blocks, designed by Hafler, for the movie cinema industry, and I can honestly say, they run my modified Klipsch Lascalas, quite " invisibly ". I did mention I was not fond of McIntosh amps ( solid state, specifically ), that use autoformers. I sold many, and have owned many. However, I did say, I understand why listeners enjoy them, but you still became defensive. And as far as tube preamps....been there, done that. " I " choose to listen to my recordings, unadulterated, non smoothed over, non colored, non editorialized, as this, brings me closer, to what is actually going on, with the musicians, the performers, the producers, and the studio engineers. I gave credit to the listeners, such as yourself, for enjoying tubes, and the Mac amplifiers. You responded hostile, and combative. I do not care if someone stated, that my system was not to their liking ( btw, this has not happened yet, after listening ). My system, is for me, no one else. You are a very angry individual, so it appears, and I am not the only one who sees this. So take care, my friend, and enjoy your system ( s ), as I am happy for you....really......Always, MrD.

Your love of Chinese knock offs are noted, but they are not for me. The Chinese repeatedly steal US technology by reverse engineering. If you are fine with it, good for you!   If you or your wife is happy with a knock off handbag, that’s great.  I prefer the real thing and won’t support that illegal industry.  What particularly bothers me is the knock off handbags using the exact same label  as the real one.  That is illegal and people who buy that stuff is stealing away sales from the legit manufacturers.  It is the same with counterfeit cables and other accessories. 
I have no problems with legit things made in China like the iPhones and iPads my wife and I both own.  However the clones and knock offs are an entirely different matter.  As long as you people with the clones and knock offs can sleep at night, I say kudos. 

Too late, I can't edit.  You and another individual keep saying I am angry.  Angry about what?    I don't know what I am angry about, so kindly let me know.  I do not like being schooled on audio.  I am old and retired and if you do not like my opinions, that's fine, but there is no anger, unless someone puts Justin Beiber on my stereo.....Then you will know what angry is.

China is FAMOYS for STEALING and COPYINg all sorts of techology, This is a fact. 
But remember China can NOT build a  <<RELIABLE CAR>>> Not in their capacity, China is only good at mass produce, and flimsy made. 
There are rare exceptions to the rule. Seems some german engineersb took their designs to China for build,,I am speaking  of the world class CAYIN units. 
Yes you heard me right CLASS A. 
I'e heard ARC and other USA labs products,,I do not like USA and HATE all/every british stereo/speakers.
I only like french amps (aka Jadis) and danish speakers (AKA SEAS) , all others i have zero interest.
Now back to my Leaf. 
Both ebay buyers wrote  back to me and gave thumbs up, but did not specify and details. 
From looking at the guts of the unit,,she looks likea  winner..especially if i roll the cheap china 6922's for some REAL muiscal 6922's, The amperex, 1960's. + I have options to upgarde the 6 caps to Mundorks Silver Oil ($$$$$, but caps for small =so only $$). That should give the pre extra sublimity in the mids and especially in the high FQ's. 
Again to bring claity, china alone can not build  a  good sounding stereo, Its not in their genes,,but then look at how much garbage came out of britian and also the USA, tons of trash. 
The holders of the mysteries of super high TRUE fidelity in all things stereo, are the french, = aka Jadis. 
The geramn techs with their Cayin are a  very close 2nd, and considering budget, cayin is the best deal, past 20 years and will remain top budget stereo,,Yet the discontinue great products, and leaves the buyer with few choices. 
I'd put my cayin CD17 with new high grade opamps + amperex tubes up to jadis's best $20,000 CD player, and A/B the 2, you might well prefer the Cayin. 
Jadis is rediculous on price tag. 

In 2 weeks, the Leaf comes up for review..
now here is yet another issue.
When I bought the Defy, had brand new (as the seller never used the Defy) 6550/Gold Lion,,I sold those off, (1/2 price retain value) as i felt (???) the KT90 was the best sounding tube,,so i laid out $700 for 12 KT90's. EH..
Could it be possible the EHKT90's are muiscally  trash tubes?
I have no idea. as I can not afford to roll 12 power tubes. Has anyone heard kt90s vs 6550's and can give me some ideas on sonics. 
The EL34's in the Cayin MT35, sock a nice hefty punch in the bass, , mids are rough and highs simply roll off .
The Jadis Orch Refer with EIKT90's (before they shorted out after 4 years/600 hours/give or take)) offered good bass 8/10, great life like vocals/mids 9/10, highs 8/10, sound stage 10/10, life like band playing in your living room dynamics 10/10. yet had a  slight *steely* sound distortion with the EI KT90's. 
= No tube is perfect.

What would be very nice is if i could roll all avaliable power tubes to acheive the sound i am looking for. I listen to classical only, no rock, no jazz.
If anyone knows of the best tube for classial/voice/chorus, please chime in.
I could go KT120;s, , as i think JJ has 120's for $50 each. =doable. 

I spoke too soon as to cayin's deletion of products,,seems cayin is alive and well. Designed in Germany, built in china. 
Beats Jadis by a  very lony mile.
Now that new 6L preamp, is nice,,but price?>?? = $$$$$ I am sure,,and this intergrated with 
<<<MUNDORF SILVER/GOLD CAPS>>>>
UNREAL...
<<Price??>>
I am quite sure = $$$$$$ 
Beats Jadis I am very sure. 
Jadis does not use Mundorf Gold Silver caps. 
I'd like to see the guts to the cd 100 player and compare it to my 2003 cd17.
I paid like $800 for the Cayin CD17. 
Wouldn't sell it for $2K. 

I will consider buying the NEW cayin SC6LS. 
= Read *consider* as ~~~Dream of buying~~~


https://en.cayin.cn/products_info?itemid=117

Perhaps we can stop the juvenile behaviour of calling racism on any criticism of Chinese companies that steal technologies, designs or brand names.  Perhaps the poster who wants a $3500 handbag for $100 would understand the concept of theft if his car was stolen?  Perhaps not.

Anyway, I agree with the sentiment that most preamps out there in the $500 range would not be the equal of a $5000 amp.  One's financial situation can make it difficult to enjoy this hobby!  I would add my +1 to the suggestion to try out Schiit Audio preamps.  I've owned 3 of them, and they are worth a look.  

Here's a thought, 
If the Leaf performs <<OK>>> = Not too shabby sound,,,I may keep this Feal+ Defy7 Set up as 
1 system and add,,,yep,,,I'm moving into the audiophile big leagues,,,,adding a ~~~ SECOND SYSTEM~~~, 
Never ever thought I'd go that route,,,but i just might...why?
Because I noted the CAYIN 845 intergrated (can be useda   power amp as well).
Yes I know the bass might not be there, But remember I am addinga  DAYTON 70 watt RMS sub amp, with the Cerwin Vega 10 inch as a  sub (Leaf has dual outs),,ahhh but the intergrated function of the cayin 845 has only 1 out,,oh well, give up some bass, but the mids are to die for...
This could get interesting,,,but also expenisve. 

Just a  thought,,,or maybe a  ~~~dream~~~~

Here is another option open as a  possibility, 
Sell the Defy and put that cash into a  cayin 845, the Pro model, not the Limited Edition.
This is a  very likely senario to this journey.
Good thing is the Jadis was not the cause the hum in start up, it was the Lite LS9 chinese preamp, Clone of the Jadis $15K preamp,,,,???,,,,anyway. 
Considering i listen to only classical muisc, , i think the 845 tube will offer the finest voicing of orchestra/vocals/chorus.
Over the Jadis's KT90;s. 
I would like imput on what price to set for the Defy, as it does have 15 yrs, but almost no usegae, . I'm thinking $3000, $200 ship/FEDEX.  and add Best offer. 
The EH KT90's alone is $800. + amperex Bugle Boys add another $300. ,,,I might start at $3500, based on new tubes/very low hours on amp = no abuse from R&R, high vol, 
If you are a believer in *break in time* which i am not a  believer,,,its barely broke in. 
any ideas greatly appreciated. 

@mozartfan, you asked, so here it goes....I have kinda supported you throughout your journey, but I have to say ( and I do not mean any harm ), that, you are all over the place. Take a deep breath, relax, wait for the Leaf, as you did order it, and see ( hear ) where that combo takes you. You are making it impossible for me to continue reading your thread, as you are " jumpy ". This is not a life or death situation, but I am seeing you as a very uptight individual, concerned over one of the greatest and enjoyable pass times we all share; music, and the listening joy it brings us. As to the others ( you people ) here, who do not like the Chinese products, I do not know what to tell you. This is life. You would rather spend $3500. on a handbag, so be it. Not everyone has that kind of cash, so, good for you folks who do. You likely have no issues with the ridiculous cost of medications the pharma companies are presenting to us, and I hope you people never need them........Everybody....relax.....and ENJOY ! MrD.

The Leaf + Defy deserves a  audition. 
The thought occured to me as i watch a  845 demo on YT, the mids are liquid gold, , yet as you know orchestras are multi layered/very complex interaction of countless FQ's/HZ's. The 845 may meld/= blend>>> all into a  gorgeous delicious <<soup>>, = the details in the orch sections get lost. which will not work for me. My 1st priority in a  stereo is that it offers distinct, separation of the instruments. 
The Defy's inner dysnamics may offer this <,separation>> in FQ's, which the 845's offer as a  <<blend>>.
Won;t work for me. 
I can not stand a  *warm* sound = lacks crystalization of the FQ's. 
I must have a  COLD crystalization, where  voice/chorus is heard as  above (sound stage)  and aprt from the orchestra.
I am almost positive the 300B and 845, although world class amps, are designed specially for jazz.
I'm guessing.
The Leaf will have its fair chance. 
If I think there is more to the Defy (= Leaf is holding Defy back) I will save up for the new cayin SC6LS Mark 2 preamp. @ $1300+ ship/china.

Glad i did not pull the triger on the Cayin SC6 Mk1 on Ebay for $1900...I thought cayin was dead,,,it is this thread which gave me the bump to look into Cayin on google. 
I was very surprised cayin is alive and doing very well.
I heard the Cayin Mk1 on youtube, she 's a  winner, crisp highs, gorgeous mids, + bass. 
Mk2 is a  new redesign. 
1st I have to sell off the LiteLS9 Pre and the cayin MT35. 
With that cash, I can get the SC6LS Mk2. 

I do not understand one thing you say. " I can not stand a warm sound ". Tubes add warmth. Yes, some designs, some tubes, more than others, but, they all, do, add warmth, even the mega dollar units. I choose to not use tubes, for that very reason. I understand those that do use tubes. But they do not make this statement as you. I think I will leave this thread for a while............Enjoy ! MrD.

OK, Yes what i meant is muddy/sloppy warm mid range. 
Which I have in this cayin MT35./EL34's. Now if I roll the cheap chinese au's/ax's in the Front, has 2 au's, 1 ax,,,perhaps I will add some dynamics to the mids /highs,,But I am going to sell it.
So you are correct, tubes are warm by nature, but not according to my Jadis Orch Refer with EI KT90's, which delivered sharp percise FQ's, and , beats any SS amp. 

Tubes give life to muisc, 
There is no SS amp that can match a  good tube amp. 
I hate SS amplification. 
Not sure why folks still continue after all these decades, to purchase solid state amplification. 
Solid state is D~I~N~O~S~A~U~R