Dear Dgob, Glad to see that there are still persons interested in,eh, philosophy of science and logic. But Kant
was convinced that Aristotelian logic was 'perfect'. He was still 'captive' in 'subject-predicate' sentence form.
But Frege was the first to explain 4 different logical facts 'included' in 'S-P' sentence form. Kant of course asked many important questions but he was not able to answer them. He had no clue about 'quatifiers' nor
the quantification theory. He was still working with 'concepts' while Frege was also the first to state that 'sentence','proposition' or 'statement' should be the
basic of any logical or linquistic investiation. So to be
honest I am still wondering why is Kant known to every German and only few have ever heard of Frege. BTW there are onbelivable more studens of Frege in the USA then in Germanny.
Regarding Raul. I admire this guy very much and he knows what I think of him as person and intellectual. But I was
confused about his statements or the way he put his convictions in words. Nothing to do with English but with
his thougts. My questions ,particulary, with his use of the
quantifier 'all' was an attemt to understand what he 'realy meant'. Alas I discovered that is not always possible to underatand each other complete.
Regards,
|
Dear Nandric: +++++ " I don't belive in any a priori truth. " ++++
me either.
+++++ " But I am sure that Raul will announce at once to his friends in his thread about the MM carts if he
discover some cart that is even better then EPC 100. " +++++
this is important and let me explain:
by the last 2-3 years I'm looking for audio items/links in the audio system chain to " the best " status with out luck and know that I found it result that is an out of production product, yes this is my very first " the best " audio item in a commercial product.
Certainly I almost know that in the future will appear some " the best " audio items and I hope I can detect it as I hope some of you then can detect it too.
+++++ " So he obviously have some other understanding of 'the best' then some other have. " +++++
yes, if not then " the best " was/will not cause controversy. The good news is that out there IMHO exist persons that has the same understanding about and what means and why's around " the best ".
That " understanding " means: training, specific on purpose training.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Timeltel: +++++ " but even my minimally enlightened perception still respects the validity of informed opinion and well examined personal choice by others. " +++++
I did and I do always. I don't like useless " confrontations " but build or try to build in favor of us and the music.
The " confrotations " always exist I try that that " confrotations " ( when I'm inn ) finish in something positive for almost all. I always learn with.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Dertonarm, You are very provocative and 'terrible' to
argue with. So apart from the fun intended, the 'Sith' is
a name without an bearer ( an non existent entity) so the question is how he can deal in anything ,except, of course in absolutes...?
Regards, |
Hi Nandric,
The Critiques, particularly in the ultimate Critique of Judgement (1790) is a far more aporetic contemplation than the modern reading that you highlight suggests. This is hardly the place to discuss this but (Frege, Russell and related mathematical thinkers not withstanding) the review of thinking that he undertakes there exceeds some of the issues that we are touching upon within the questions of "the best". I find a friend's work to be a fairly useful in-road to a rewarding reconsideration: 'A Kant Dictionary', Howard Caygill (Blackwell, 1995). As I said, what emerges is the very real complexity that besets this debate unless limitations to the discourse and claims are established. Maybe a clear announcement of what we mean by "best" would therefore be helpful in our context.
Concerning Raul as a person, I don't really think our personal opinions of him should interfere. I own the Technics and in fact share his views about its performance. However, I limit my claim to "the best I have ever heard": at once declaring my limitations (subject to time and space as they are) and leaving open the possibility that it is the best there ever was! |
Hi Dgob, the "best I ever heard" is a sensible and wise statement. No man with a real understanding in audio or other complex areas of life would ever use this term without the later 3 words.
I too know the Technics P100c/4 from former ownership. It is good. It may sound to some as the pinnacle of the art of cartridge, but there are cartridges out there showing more what's in the groove.
After 32 years in high-end (and many of them at what some would call the cutting edge of development), I have seen coming and going about 100+ audio components which were named one way or another "the best" by various people - professionals and customers alike.
They came - and they vanished again.
Some left memories worth remembering.
Most didn't.
Only a handful stood the test of time and the change of taste and favor.
The chief Sommelier from Mexico surely does polarize by his statement and the way he claims the status.
But this too will vanish again in the mist of time passing. |
Dear Dertonarm: +++++ " t may sound to some as the pinnacle of the art of cartridge, but there are cartridges out there showing more what's in the groove. " +++++
I agree, more distortions and I mean it.
If you want to talk or share your today EPC-P100C MK4 experiences against those other " cartridges " you are welcome to do it.
+++++ " They came - and they vanished again. " +++++
certainly the EPC-P100C MK4 ( I hope ) in a near future will hand over/decline in favor of the next " the best " cartridge, I hope too this cartridge can be a " today " one and not a vintage one.
Dear Dertonarm, please " listen and listen well ": " the best " status is here to stay, remember this in the years to come.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dgob,
Thanks. I learned a new word today! (I did not know 'Aporia' had an adjective). While it may not be the place to discuss it, we are still stuck with lack of agreement on what "the best" is and whether it indeed exists (or whether, if it exists, it is by definition unattainable). I expect that people may enjoy the same cartridge and respect others' enjoyment without agreeing on the philosophy behind the words they use to describe it... Personally, I expect the carts themselves don't care much, and the cart designers are much more circumspect. |
Dear Raul, I always listen well - that's why I am so careful with my statements. That I do not value the EPC-P100c/4 as high as you do may simply have to do with different biases and different preferences in taste (here we go again - individuality...).
To me the EPC-P100c/4 does smooth out the sound - as many good MMs and MIs do.
It (and 99.99% of all other cartridges) lacks the physical presence I am accustomed to get from reel-to-reel machines and I know I can get from a cartridge too.
But I never heard it from any MM or MI.
Much to my regret, as the higher output of both principles means a great relief for any phono stage.
However - wishful thinking doesn't help on the track.
The EPC-P100c/4 did not stand the test of time.
Even if recently re-discovered by yourself - and your great enthusiasm to promote its status ( which I do respect - don't get me wrong !!! ) will certainly put it to the attention of some followers of fashion here on A'gon.
It was widely forgotten in the past 2.5 decades.
As were a lot of other great (but none the "best"...) cartridges which would easily hold their place against any top-flight pick-up on the new market today.
In my point of view the one thing we all can learn from "cartridge discoveries" like yours and mine (which will stay anonymous....... some may think they know what I am referring to, but they are all wrong...;-)....) is that the wheel is e-invented over and over again.
There is nothing really new in cartridge design today, which wasn't there in 1980.
We have certain ideas in body construction, shape and composition and a lot of new phrases for old facts. |
Dear Nandric, well - the non-existence of the entity of Sith is yet not proofed.
A Sith is rather exposed only by his actions and his dealing in absolutes.
You know, the dark side of the force is very tempting....... that's why so many great and mighty souls did fall for it.
It is a matter of ego and the striving for absolutes which puts one on the first steps toward the dark side.
I rather stay a humble Yedi ....... ;-)......
May the force be with you ! |
Interesting Thread. But I think it will be endless.
The Best for whom?
For most Audiophiles (99%) it already exists. It is their next one. |
Syntax, you are quite right.
Sometimes the answer to many questions is simple.
It is an everlasting and itself inducting process here.
We poor analog-junkies go always for the next fix - and the next will always be the best in the moment or the illusion.
That's why I always promote centering the concentration on the software - it stays, the hardware will be exchanged as long as the wallet and the circumstances allow. |
T_bone,
I'm not sure, I've not asked them recently but I suspect one or two of them might! |
Dear Dertonarm: +++++ " EPC-P100c/4 does smooth out the sound - as many good MMs and MIs do.
It (and 99.99% of all other cartridges) lacks the physical presence I am accustomed to get from reel-to-reel machines and I know I can get from a cartridge too.
But I never heard it from any MM or MI. " +++++
IMHO you need to hear in your today system this cartridge. What you say that never attain with MM/MI is precisely part of what you get with the Technics. Please read again the cartridge review about.
The name of the game to achieve that physical presence is how good a cartridge " express " dynamics and all what means dynamics.
This cartridge IMHO put new standards on cartridge dynamics and that's why I think is nearest to the recording and nearest to the live event music dynamics. Is simple: outstanding, that's why ( beteewn other atributes. ) is " the best ".
+++++ " It was widely forgotten in the past 2.5 decades. " +++++
yes the high end audio establishment decide to " hide " not only this " subject " but many others but this fact does not diminish in anyway the greatness of this cartridge and as I posted: that's a MM analog source is only an " accident ".
+++++ " is that the wheel is e-invented over and over again.
There is nothing really new in cartridge design today, which wasn't there in 1980. " +++++
I can't agree more with you. As you know in several posts some of us agree with that statement and I can add at least the same for TT and tonearms.
The Technics EPC-P100C MK4 is a confirmation of your statement and there are many other examples in several audio areas.
It is a must that the today high end establishment change for the better in favor of customers and thw whole establishment.
+++++ " may simply have to do with different biases and different preferences in taste (here we go again - individuality...). " +++++
this statement is very important on the " the best " subject and on what we agree or not on audio subjects.
I agree in part with but try to follow spreading the " myth " ( for me. ) of absolute audio individuality like the argument that preclude the existence of " the best " is only part of the overall " the best " agressive environment, is part of the establishment ( IMHO a bad part ) and a false breeze over our each one head that the establishment already put there and that many of you " die for ".
Let me explain what I think about:
the human nature made/makes that almost all of us growed up trying to learn and be better. Our each one " ego " makes that some of us were/are extremely competitive ( always wants win. ) every single day in whatever human activity we are involve even if we don't have the tools/skills and deep overall knowledge on that " activity ", even some of us " live " only with the everyday hope to be " recognizable/grateful " for other people: with or with out merits.
The big " mass/part " of human individuality IMHO does not exist, 90% of our individuality on audio/music is the same, our goals are almost the same. We can have a little different music taste but at the end we are looking the pleasure/joy of home music reproduction at its greatness level.
Of course that we are more " important " persons if we are " different " from the masses/majorities that we are not.
You are a very clear example on this: " hey I came from Krypton and by biases, taste, system, experience, goals, etc, etc are way different, is useless to speak about because you can't understand! "
you already posted something like this several times and ( in good shape ) I laugh everytime not from you but what that means in reallity.
I can live with that and can " talk " with you even if you think ( seriously or not. ) came from Krypton ( that you did not. ), because IMHO your music home system reproduction overall goals are more similar to mines than different. Are there differences? of course but IMHO not irreconzilable ones.
IMHO no one lives in an island and " aisle " totally from the human nature Earth environment.
I'm not on sale or buying nothing not even my thougths and opinion, I would like that we all try to think for a few minutes/hours " out of the audio high end establishment ": with no prejudice of any kind.
It is obvious that the most important part of each individuality is on that remaining 10% of what I talk about. Is this 10% what makes real and unique differences that create different audio-person stratums with different level on each one stratum.
Several factors incident to separate in very clear way those stratums:
our live music experiences, recording involve/know how, whole audio knowledge, experiences with different own audio systems and experiences with other people audio systems, audio discipline level and the " right " process and training to discern quality performance system and music reproduction differences, audio technical know-how, attitude in favor of music and in favor to grow up for the better, sprit to be an actor and not a mere spectactor on where the audio high end goes, good experienced ears and understanding what the music can/could makes for us and for our each one joy and happiness through a home audio systems, knowledge on our each one limitations, knowledge on the home audio system intrinsic/natural limitations, know how of the audio high end today establishment, capacity to think different and take actions according, to own a first rate quality performance audio system , top audio/music quality targets, years of posaitive " training ", etc, etc
Any one of you can add some other " factors ".
Well, IMHO all those factors and more makes a " free " and natural/automatic " grouping " for all the audio people in those diffrent stratums levels.
No one put me there or put you or any one in " that " stratum ": it is a " natural " selection/action.
We belongs where we belongs, nothing more nothing less and obviously we can improve about and as a fact we all are " working " on even if we don't care about.
Well, IMHO only the top stratum audio/music people ( where some of you are. ) has the capacities/overall training to discern about " the best " audio items subject and other " out of establishment " subjects along with the " luck " to find out that " the best ".
Now, IMHO if you or any one insist that is way " different " due to his " individuality " that's fine with me but in no way diminish the " the best " existence figure.
My position is not philosophical or something like that: I only want to live with out " deceit ", with the foots well positioned on floor and with out compromises other than those God decide.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Syntax. That's exactly what the audio high end establishment say/said and " we " follow it like " robots ".
That's why we are still in 2010 speaking, raving, enjoying and using 1970 audio products instead the today ones!!!! and this could tell me that if that AHE establisment does not change fast in favor of customer real needs then those " vintage " products will grow up in more and more home audio systems out there.
Save the Planet!!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Raul,
first - what I meant with "physical presence" has nothing to do with the way a cartridge is able to express dynamic changes or amplitude.
It is a matter of energy transfer.
And it is a direct interaction related to the mechanical/dynamically match with the respective tonearm.
I gives the sonic illusion that the reproduced instruments or voices are "there" - with physical presence AND "real physical weight".
I am into this specific aspect of tone reproduction in cartridge/tonearms since a few years now and I have found this special quality to more or less extend in a very few low compliance cartridges only. One of them outperforms all the others by a considerable margin.
And this very cartridge has unique design aspects regarding cantilever, magnets and coil in combination with an unusual body.
No other cartridge is even remotely similar - neither in design nor in this specific aspect of reproduction.
In the "usual suspects" as dynamics, soundstage, color, detail .. etc bla bla... this cartridge is on a par with all the other great ones.
Clear, neutral, balanced.
In all respect, there is no need for me to re-audition the EPC-P100cmk4 - my sonic memory is good and my set-up 1992 was the equal to anything you find here on Audiogon or anywhere else today.
As I said - the EPC is good. Maybe it is very good. But it is not great - well, maybe for the price it is.
Take my word - what I mean with "physical presence" is something you hear with good 7.5 or better 15 ips 2-track tapes on Studer C-37 or similar (if you ever have a chance - listen to the great original 2-track tape of "L'historie de soldat" on a C-37. You'll immediately understand what I mean with "physical presence".
I have already expressed my serious concerns and reservations about your use with the phrase "the best" - which in fact was the only aspect that brought me into this thread. It wasn't the cartridge.
We simply have very different positions here and my concerns are deeply rooted in my humanistic approach and the abuse this specific term and its direct "offsprings" have created in mankind and our history.
It is not "us experienced audio sommeliers" who are able to discover or define what is best or great.
It is an individual search and an individual discovery.
Many uncertain souls however do ask for and look for guidance and an opinion- leader.
This is the point when people like you jump into place and action.
It is not your fault of course.
You are chosen by others.
Anyway - just a side-step...
Many of us do strive for excellence in their respective set-ups and within the parameters of one's specific taste, likes, dislikes and wishes.
Once you can agree that those aspects listed in the sentence above are NOT the same with all people you'll see that the phrase "the best" is - well - an illusion.
And a very dangerous one.
Lastly - never accuse me again of writing long posts.... ;-)...... you are outperforming me by quite a margin in this respect. |
Hi Dertonarm,which cartridge or cartridges are the true great ones,in your opinion?Since you prefer the FR tonearm I guess it would have to be a heavy,low compliance MC cartridge?When is the last time you heard the Technics?If it was long ago and your system changed for the better,with a suitable tonearm maybe you would think the good sounding Technics now sounds great.Or maybe not. |
Dear Raul,There is this German aphorism:'Gedanken sind Zollfrei' (the thoughts are duty free). Provided that they
are not loudly annunciated. We all have the same rights you know,the right to sleep under an bridge included.
You already got many appraisals from us so no need to do this yourself.
Regards, |
Dear Dertonarm: I now exactly what means "physical presence", you are not the only person that heard it through RtR.
The thread is not about you, here the subject is beyond you, me or any one else so don't try to follow your inferior " ego ".
This thread don't sale anything and unfortunatelly you can't take off your seller hat, yes IMHO you are part of the " cloudly " audio high end establishment.
Everybody nows that you sale vintage cartridges ( FR. ), vintage tonearms ( FR )/TT, transformers and the like and every word you posted ( one way or the other ) are " promoting " what you sale.
You are very wise about a good seller and nothing wrong with that but that attitude is not the one that I'm looking for in this thread.
You already take advantage on this thread to promote that " great " unknow cartridge and to put veils of " mystery " and put interest on Agoner's, this is the way you " action ": seeing in favor of you only and how make money easy money, like I say the " cloudly/bad " part of the audio high end establishment.
It is useles/futile to go on with when you persist with your seller attitude.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Hi Travbrow, please re-read my last post - my system may have changed a bit for the better, but even back then it was easily the equal of anything the industry offers today or what you may find here on A'gon.
And - no, the FR-tonearms aren't all that heavy anymore once you omit their insane original headshell and choose the correct balance. You will get outstanding and unparalleled ( in the most positive sense.... ;-).... ) results ( if aligned to the "right" geometry - which all too often it is not...) from a match with a FR-64s even with Miyabi, Koetsu or Lyra systems - and none of these is low compliance.
As mentioned before - the EPC-P100c/4 is a great performer for its price.
But unless you bribe me with insane amount of money, I won't give it more credit than that.
And I know why.
Come on folks, it can't be that difficult to accept that there are other opinions, points of view and maybe different biases ?
I have no problem if this cartridge is "the best" for any of you.
If so - great for you and fine for me.
If it ease your mind, just predict that I not able to accept this solitary status of this cartridge am either half-deaf, have no clue or am simply unexperienced ( or all three.... free choice). |
Hi Travbrow, other great cartridges?
Well - in no particular order and with different individual virtues:
- Shinon Red -2nd series
- Miyabi original
- Kiseki Purpleheart Shappire
- Sony XL-88 -2nd series
- Ikeda EMPL
and 3 others which I won't go public with.
2 of them were never available outside Japan.
1 never went to the custom market.
But you have the EPC-P100c/4 - no need to worry..... |
Pickin' isn't the right way, when someone is a Graham/Lyra/Shelter Dealer and writes that this is a good one, where is the problem? DerTonearm also sells you some nonsense when you want that. Based on selling some FR stuff doesn't make him a Dealer. When I am right, that company is out of business more than 20 years ago. When someone wants a FR Arm/Cartridge all you have to do is to be faster at Ebay than he is. Big deal. Let's be honest, before he wrote about that, most didn't know that this company made something serious. Or Audio Technika for you, or Supex for the next one.
It is only a discussion.
Like I wrote before, for most the dice rolls only in 1 direction... |
Dear Syntax: I'm not reffering you , the statement: ++ It is their next one. "+++ in many ways goes against us customers.
I think that that fact could be change in the future for the better in the same " size " that we customers grow up on audio/music knowledge.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Hi Dertonarm,I don't own one of those 100MKIV cartridges.I just found it curious that two of the most experienced audiophiles with excellent top quality systems and both have heard some of the best cartridges available(which alot of us could never afford)disagree so much with the Technics performance.You say it loses out to a number of different cartridges and Raul thinks it is the best ever.Do you think for the $900.00 or so the last samples sold for where a bargain compared to whats available today?
I guess it will always be the same in this hobby,just opinions and people will never agree on what is the "absolute" best. |
If only we could follow this curious money trail... |
Can I propose a shootout?
How about a shootout at some agreed upon location with an entrance fee to cover expenses of setup and rental etc.
Since we are on the topic of best cartridge I bet there would be a large audience.
I certainly would be interested.
I bet NYC would be an excellent place since there are so many audiophiles in the tri-state area. |
Dear Pedrillo,
we will hardly be able to agree about the periphery components ....
Anyway - let me suppose RMAF 2011.
I'll be there. |
Dertonarm,
There must be a way that you could both select your preferred set up (the one in which you feel your best cartridge performs to its optimum)and let others judge the merits of each. If you were then both free to issue personal invitations, surely there would be some mileage in such a comparison.
I suspect this would move many forward in their pursuit of audio excellence and it would certainly demonstrate the merits of many significant claims. Of course, this would depend on you and Raul demonstrating your commitment to advancing the world of audio, which must be a key part of a site such as Audiogon and related claims? |
What about the Munich hifi show in May?
I have the "magical" Technics EPC-P100C-MK4 & Ortofon A90.
Raul can bring his vdh aligned Technics EPC-P100C-MK4
Dertonarm - you can bring a miyabe and your secret cartridge.
Lewm can bring his Ortofon M20FL super as the overachieving low cost cart.
Syntax, what are you going to bring?
Now, lets spend the next month debating about what gear to put with these wonderful cartridges.
Then we can debate what music we each want to play.
with so many variables, there will be many different results one would guess :-)
It may still go back to individual taste |
Hi Downunder, great suggestion!
I'll be there.
Let's make the shoot-out at TW's room.
Bet he will be delighted to see a few of us.........;^) ..... |
Dear Downunder, Munich is an splendid idea . For me a piece of cake to get there from Holland. There is however a
problem. This Dertonarm guy seems to be very strong and he
is,besides, an descendant from very dengerous German warriors. Ie I would like to come back to Holland a live.
I have no horses for the competioon but intend to bring my
ears with me. But my proviso is twofold:
1. the winning horse should be decided by secret vote,
2. Dertonarm should promise in advance not to cause eny harm to me .
Ragrds, |
Follow-up to Downunder's proposal:
how about everyone can name 3-5 records and one tonearm to work with and demonstrate the respective cartridge(s).
Maybe we will find a distributor/exhibitor who is interested in working with us and use the shoot-out as special promotional event.
Syntax - if interested at all - can join with his Miyabi and an Olympos.
I can even bring a small TT with me - equipped with my tonearm of choice.
Furthermore we could set-up a listening session at my private home - which is only a 45 minute drive from the show and situated at a lovely lakeside with great beer-garden and outstanding panorama view of the northern alps.
Meeting in person could get the egos and the posing out of the way and this could really be fun and refreshing to all.
And it would finally give real impressions - first hand ones - to everyone about the individual listening preferences of the other.
I know at least - off hand - 8 other Audiogoners who will certainly not wanna miss that.
And yes Downunder - in the very end each and everyone of us will always return to his individual taste.
Its natural - and frankly, would anyone prefer it any different? |
Syntax, what are you going to bring? Whatever you like to listen to. Miyabi/Olympos is no big deal to carry. Better than my Phonostage with 6 inputs.... :-) Meeting... at a lovely lakeside with great beer-garden and outstanding panorama Go-Go-Girls too? . |
Dear Nandric, don't worry - I am peaceful and humanistic, despite my bad reputation...... ;-) ........ |
i hope you guys are able to do this; for the fun of it at least. and i have a suggestion as to a way to have a proper reference. i would love to be there, but Munich in May is not an option for me.
find some Lps with corresponding RTR 15ips master dubs which are the source of the Lps. then you have a reference which can reduce the degree of personal preference involved in the ranking. or, at least, have that be part of the process to sort out the 'truth' from the 'beauty'.
i've done this exercise a few times using the master tape as a reference and it causes one to have a slightly different viewpoint on the music.....as the tape has essentially no characteristic as a cartridge tends to have. we become enamored with an aspect of the cartridge 'sound' and the tape tends to expose that as 'coloration'.
my expectation would be the Lyra Olympos SL as the overall winner.....and closest to the RTR master tape. |
Dear Downunder: May is to close for me, RMFA will be fine or better yet: México city and then Huatulco Harbors or Can Cun to take a healthy " refresh " . I can organize an audio-music-beach-Monte Alban/Teotihuacan-tour for a week for all of us.
We can have a " convention " type here and maybe begin/found the " International HE Audiophile Association " in favor of the AHEE.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Mikelavigne, while Syntax has 2 Olympos (one of them really great...) he knows very well that even among his cartridge line-up it has fierce competition which it can not outperform.
With the RTR we have the old problem again - it has to be played via a RTR machine and that again is not out of question (it too will add and/or deduct quality) as it too is just a tape-recorder (if a big one...) and aside from perfect aligned C-37 with full NOS set of tubes, I really do not want to listen to any of the other RTRs around - far from calling them a reference. A truly great cart/arm set-up careful aligned on a decent TT will outperform 99.99% of all RTRs around aside from the very best tube-based pro-machines of days gone by ( the solid state output stage-RTRs are only a pale shade of what a RTR can do).
But as long as we play the very same record on various set-ups we will have a good test routine with at least one constant ( according to I. Kant and R. Steiner this one constant is all be need to move the universe...) among those cherish audio variables. |
Dertonarm,
regarding RTR; there is nothing wrong with a Studer A-820 playing thru a custom Cello solid state output electronics as a reference. or an Ampex ATR-102 playing thru the same electronics. while i agree that 70's and 80's RTR decks had marginal output electronics they had superior transports to earlier machines. mated with great output electronics they are hard to beat. again we come to 'sounds' verses music. i've heard the Cello circuit compared to tubed output electronics. the tubes were slow and thick....the Cello was alive and allowed the music to breathe.....but had a much lower noise floor and greater refinement than the stock Studer output electronics.
have you investigated newer RTR transports with improved ss output electronics?
i guess we all have our 'holy grail's' and nothing will separate us from them.
there are many great cartridges i've not been exposed to. maybe the Olympos SL can be surpassed. i've just not heard that myself. |
Dear Mike: As interesting as is the RTR source quality performance what Pedrillo sugest was/is a cartridge shootout and this will be nice and learning.
IMHO maybe the RTR/cartridge comparison could be for a next time, but if the majority decided it then is fine for me.
An audio shootout is always fun and if we can take advantage to start/build that Association that will be nice because I think that we all as a " group " better yet as organize group we can/could help to improve what we all ready have and what we all aspire to as members of the Audio High End Establishment.
As an organized group ( Association ) we can be in touch with several other Audiophile/audio-customers associations that already exist all over the world by many years to " work " in benefit of the AHEE where all belongs.
Dertonarm, remember what you an me ( others too. ) talks about some audio standards and the need to do/start something about?, well this is a good opportunity.
If you like ( all of you ) the idea to come to México, maybe just after/before RMFA ( I think in October. ), then I have the time to organize the " tour " and we all have the time to organize for that and to define: cartridges, records, shootout " process ", etc, etc.
In the other side IMHO an audio shootout could be more " positive " to do it in a well controled and more alike of what we all have: a home audio system instead an audio show room.
Aside this could be a good opportunity to know each other and talk on what we love/like.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
¡ Oh ! and don't forget the Mezcal and Chapulines!!! that can be waiting for all of you.
regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Regards, all: I am sure there are others who appreciate the concept of a meeting of audio cognoscenti to sample and compare well respected sources in a controled setting, but will be unable to participate and enjoy the experience. A recording might serve as a reference for those who would consider "adopting" one or several, but lack the opportunity to audition numerous high end cartridges. This could serve as a foundation for future reference (remember http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1246451558&&&/Establishing-a-common-analog-listening-b?) and as a tool related to individual system evaluation.
Details would be as agreed upon by the participants but I would be pleased to "subscribe" to a CD (with appropriate material identifying the cartridge, TT, RTR, musical selection etc.) in advance. One might anticipate the possibility this could be an event held in various locations in the future.
Just a thought. |
Mikelavigne, just checked and saw the A-820 listed and pictured in your system.
Sorry and by all means, don't take my remark about ss-based RTRs personal.
And yes, having had good relations to the Bavarian Broadcast as well as to two recording studios here in Munich I am pretty accustomed to the younger generation Studers too.
The improvement in speed stability and reduced vibration does not really make up for loss of dimensionality and low level dynamics compared to the C-37 - especially not when running at 15ips.
But this belongs somewhere else and RTRs are way behind me today. I had it, I put it to extreme and saw the borders and got some memorable experiences which helped me on my way with cartridge/tonearm set-up and the possible sound.
I respect your set-up and the A-820 is a fine machine. Should you ever run across a C-37 in fine shape with back-up set of original tubes you should nevertheless give it a serious thought - if you are really into RTR.
After all - all the truly great recordings till 1968 in Jazz, Pop and Classic alike were made on tube-based RTRs.
I am certainly no "tubes vs ss - choose sides! - audiophile".
I use both. I do believe in design - and I do get the results I want with either active devices. I use tubes in my preamplifier and ss in my power amps - partly SEss-OPT amps.
There is no audio-religion I follow - aside from true performance.
Results are all I am after.
Whatever rocks the house is fine with me. |
Even if we can't count on Raul for Munich iIgh-End show - how about having a meeting with those analog-A'goners who are coming in ?
I am here and can offer a good listen as well as some company while touring through the show.
And a nice shoot-out of the carts will be possible either way - at the show (shouldn't be too difficult to arrange) or in 1 or 2 private listening rooms. |
Dear friends: That could be fine. We can have two meetings: one in May and one in October here in México.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Downunder: +++++ " I have the "magical" Technics EPC-P100C-MK4 & Ortofon A90.
Raul can bring his vdh aligned Technics EPC-P100C-MK4
Dertonarm - you can bring a miyabe and your secret cartridge.
Lewm can bring his Ortofon M20FL super as the overachieving low cost cart.
Syntax, what are you going to bring? " +++++++
we are talking on two different analog source alternatives ( MC and MM/MI ) and IMHO in a shootout we need that both alternatives be " linked " with what each one needs, especially the MM/MI phono stage. It is desirable that the shootout could be fair or as close it can for both alternatives.
regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Raul, I can ( could...) provide a full differential balanced passive split RIAA phono stage with 100k AND 47k inputs for the MM/MI. Furthermore it has several transformers for all source impedances for LOMC and MOMC.
So we would have another constant in teh phono stage.
All inputs are RCA (pure solid silver) AND silver Neutrik XLRs - free choice.
It is tube based, but I too can provide either a Zanden, LAMM LP2 (highly mopdified), Boulder or Klyne.
So we would have "real world market"-alternatives too.
BTW - I was in Mexico City twice in 1994 when setting up my turntable there for a client. |
Dear Dertonarm: It depends of what we all really want it: a serious cartridge shootout or a shootout just for fun.
Just for fun any of the commercial units you name it can be use.
I take the Pedrillo good idea of the shootout to more than a " simple " shootout make something where all of us can " learn " on the why's of the contest results, trade offs and how we can take advantage on those learning exercise and due that we meet in a serious way then could be a good opportunity to begin/build that International AHE Audiophile Association and leave that meeting with something real where all of us can participate and be actors in the near future and not only spectators on how the AHEE must grow up.
Well only my thoughts, unfortunately I can't be there in May but like I say we can have a meeting/tour again by October that you already posted will be at 2-3 hours from Mexico city.
In principle other that the " tour " I would like that all of us can have the opportunity to be in " touch " with three MM/MI cartridges: the Technics one, the Azden YM-P50VL and the AKG P-100 LE and in the other side the Olympos, A-90 and other two top LOMC cartridges that any one of you can suggest.
With this in mind and especially with the MM/MI's my target/priority is that these cartridge can be " serve " in even overall conditions as the LOMC ones.
Anyway, here IMHO is not the place to discuss and to achieve the whole factors/needs/touring and the like of the meeting.
Like you there I'm focus here.
This kind of meetings can be make by the desire of the " community " my email ( as yours ) is open for any kind of suggestion about and for the people can say/decide: I will be there, count with me for May or October.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear friends: Thinking in " high voice " maybe some of you could take the October meeting here in México like family holidays/vacation where I can organize activities for the family ( wife and soons/childs. ) while we are on the Audio meeting and obviously we can organize activities for the group / whole family.
There are a lot of things to know and food to eat/drink.
Just " open " thoughts.
regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Raul: Isn't October still hurricane season in Mexico? |
I am afraid that if we met in person, you guys would find out that I am a 21-year-old shapely blond female, and you would no longer pay any attention to anything I say. (Of course, if this were true, I would stay home looking at myself all the time and not give a hoot about audio.) Also, I confess that I want an Olympos AND an MC A90. Also, I change my own mind daily about which of the good to great cartridges I own is best (even though so far I own none of the "best" except the Colibri), and I even think it depends on the particular peculiarities of the LP I am trying to play.
I will be in Geneva for a WHO meeting the last 5 days of April. When is the show in Munich? |
