Now Downunder - THAT is the best post here so far ! |
Mordante, your post was way too smart, intellectual and educational to find the applause it surely deserved.
Few really like it to look into a mirror.
Logic and philosophy in its consequence does not qualify for be taken serious in personal audio nirvanas ...... it is the nature of the game: this is always about individual emotional experience via an individual matrix.
The funny thing is, that the very same lonely personal experiences often cry out for absolute statements. |
Raul - the only logic answer to your original question in this thread is: NO. |
Dear Raul +++I learn that not all are/is already writed on high end Audio!+++
I think it is - problem is that it was written before the world wide web became second life for most audiophiles. Tons of invaluable technical information about audio related issues and topics have been written by dedicated gifted engineers and pioneers of audio during a time when high end was still the profession as well as the object of research and development of legions of trained and highly educated engineers and technicians.
And with the huge man power and financial resources of large companies behind them.
Those technical essays and papers are only in fragments and small portions available on the web so far.
Thus comes that many "facts" known 4 and 5 decades back are today in parts "new discoveries" by heroic audio afficionados today.
Open wide all doors of voodoo and niche-guru-ship.
The global village and its online platforms giving each and every audio voice its speaker's corner freely is no good substitute for the printed papers of the 1940ies - 1960ies.
There is no new in analog audio.
Everything was written already.
Much is lost and forgotten.
And most orchestras today do indeed manoeuvre in the dark ............ while believing that the dense fog around them is clear light leading to audio heaven. |
Acoustat6, I honestly think Raul is serious in his plans and attempts to fulfill his dreams and visions.
And I have no doubt that in his very personal point of view to the audio world as a whole he will succeed one far away future day. In his vision to let the world know and accept that his designs are what he sincerely believes they are, he will fail - as will and has so far everyone trying to make anything "absolute" or "best ever".
These are all hollow phrases today.
Human hearing and taste and visions are always individual and subjective.
If there is one single field which will never see any "best", than it is audio reproduction.
Unless we succeed in standardizing the recipients .... |
Dear Nandric, well - the non-existence of the entity of Sith is yet not proofed.
A Sith is rather exposed only by his actions and his dealing in absolutes.
You know, the dark side of the force is very tempting....... that's why so many great and mighty souls did fall for it.
It is a matter of ego and the striving for absolutes which puts one on the first steps toward the dark side.
I rather stay a humble Yedi ....... ;-)......
May the force be with you ! |
Dear Raul, growing up doesn't necessary mean to leave archaic ways. We all try - some more some less - to make things important to us "better".
And - well, english isn't my mother language either and I can expres myself and my thought a hell of a lot better and more precisely in german.
To accept, that a device - which is NOT independent as such but part of a mechanical matched team (cartridge/tonearm) - can't be the solitary "best" is important to make any progress.
As long as cartridges have to be mounted in tonearms and as long as we will have different tonearms around, we can't have a single "best" cartridge.
I am familiar with the Technics cartridge you are referring to from the old days.
It performs very good in certain tonearms.
I have a different "best" cartridge, which I know can only work to its very best with very few tonearms - because of mechanical and dynamical interactions.
I too believe that I can "proof" this to about everyone coming to my listening room. But it is the very combination of a certain cartridge with a very certain tonearm which do form an almost perfect mechanical team.
Raul - seriously - is there a single "best" food, a "best" wine, a "best" car, a "best" novel, a "best" movie, a best "song", a "best" piece of music ??
One does not have to be into philosophy to accept that the definition and election of something "best" is a futile quest from the start.
Especially so in a area where any prospective "best" would be a matter of interactions with partners.
And then finally - there is the individual experience which is different with each of us.
No matter what "listening test" one would put up, you would have different people with different taste and different ideas about how the music the hear have to be and how they get to their respective brain and evokes the illusion.
Politicians try to tell us since 5000 years what is the "best" for us.
Marketing tries the same since about 120 years - with increasing intensity.
There is a quest for the best, - but there will never be such thing in human existence.
If you tell us that you want to build the best cartridge for a certain given tonearm - then most would agree: yes, - that's possible and a smart decision. |
Raul, you are referring (maybe without knowing so...) to the Volunté Générale by J.-J. Rousseau. This gets automatic in opposition to the "Volonté de tous" of all the other audiophiles.
This is an old dilemma.
Even if we take you as the chief sommelier of analog audio's Maxim's de Paris (although I am pretty sure there will be a hell of a lot of other audiophiles volunteer for that position... ;-)....), there are always - after all is said and done - even in widely recognized outstanding vintages - different tastes among people.
Some can't stand subtle details in a bouquet that the next finds overwhelming in beauty and delight.
Accepting laws of nature (human here ....) does not mean to abandon the pursuit for perfection or the strive for progress.
And the individual recognition of a "Volonté Générale" in analog cartridge performance is not transferable to another person. Recognition in the sense of the words of this heroic phrase means abusing it.
This has been done to great sadness in politics in the past 2 centuries and our world was not changed for the better - but it filled the graveyards and corrupted our ethics.
There is always a "best" cartridge in the moment and for the individual listener's matrix.
There is always a "best" Claret (among other great but different wines) for the moment and the respective course of menu - there is no absolute best for ANY occasion.
Even Parker and Broadbent would agree on that..... |
Remember Obi-Wan Kenobi in Star Wars III ?
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes...."...... |
Hi Dgob, the "best I ever heard" is a sensible and wise statement. No man with a real understanding in audio or other complex areas of life would ever use this term without the later 3 words.
I too know the Technics P100c/4 from former ownership. It is good. It may sound to some as the pinnacle of the art of cartridge, but there are cartridges out there showing more what's in the groove.
After 32 years in high-end (and many of them at what some would call the cutting edge of development), I have seen coming and going about 100+ audio components which were named one way or another "the best" by various people - professionals and customers alike.
They came - and they vanished again.
Some left memories worth remembering.
Most didn't.
Only a handful stood the test of time and the change of taste and favor.
The chief Sommelier from Mexico surely does polarize by his statement and the way he claims the status.
But this too will vanish again in the mist of time passing. |
Dear Raul, I always listen well - that's why I am so careful with my statements. That I do not value the EPC-P100c/4 as high as you do may simply have to do with different biases and different preferences in taste (here we go again - individuality...).
To me the EPC-P100c/4 does smooth out the sound - as many good MMs and MIs do.
It (and 99.99% of all other cartridges) lacks the physical presence I am accustomed to get from reel-to-reel machines and I know I can get from a cartridge too.
But I never heard it from any MM or MI.
Much to my regret, as the higher output of both principles means a great relief for any phono stage.
However - wishful thinking doesn't help on the track.
The EPC-P100c/4 did not stand the test of time.
Even if recently re-discovered by yourself - and your great enthusiasm to promote its status ( which I do respect - don't get me wrong !!! ) will certainly put it to the attention of some followers of fashion here on A'gon.
It was widely forgotten in the past 2.5 decades.
As were a lot of other great (but none the "best"...) cartridges which would easily hold their place against any top-flight pick-up on the new market today.
In my point of view the one thing we all can learn from "cartridge discoveries" like yours and mine (which will stay anonymous....... some may think they know what I am referring to, but they are all wrong...;-)....) is that the wheel is e-invented over and over again.
There is nothing really new in cartridge design today, which wasn't there in 1980.
We have certain ideas in body construction, shape and composition and a lot of new phrases for old facts. |
Syntax, you are quite right.
Sometimes the answer to many questions is simple.
It is an everlasting and itself inducting process here.
We poor analog-junkies go always for the next fix - and the next will always be the best in the moment or the illusion.
That's why I always promote centering the concentration on the software - it stays, the hardware will be exchanged as long as the wallet and the circumstances allow. |
Dear Raul,
first - what I meant with "physical presence" has nothing to do with the way a cartridge is able to express dynamic changes or amplitude.
It is a matter of energy transfer.
And it is a direct interaction related to the mechanical/dynamically match with the respective tonearm.
I gives the sonic illusion that the reproduced instruments or voices are "there" - with physical presence AND "real physical weight".
I am into this specific aspect of tone reproduction in cartridge/tonearms since a few years now and I have found this special quality to more or less extend in a very few low compliance cartridges only. One of them outperforms all the others by a considerable margin.
And this very cartridge has unique design aspects regarding cantilever, magnets and coil in combination with an unusual body.
No other cartridge is even remotely similar - neither in design nor in this specific aspect of reproduction.
In the "usual suspects" as dynamics, soundstage, color, detail .. etc bla bla... this cartridge is on a par with all the other great ones.
Clear, neutral, balanced.
In all respect, there is no need for me to re-audition the EPC-P100cmk4 - my sonic memory is good and my set-up 1992 was the equal to anything you find here on Audiogon or anywhere else today.
As I said - the EPC is good. Maybe it is very good. But it is not great - well, maybe for the price it is.
Take my word - what I mean with "physical presence" is something you hear with good 7.5 or better 15 ips 2-track tapes on Studer C-37 or similar (if you ever have a chance - listen to the great original 2-track tape of "L'historie de soldat" on a C-37. You'll immediately understand what I mean with "physical presence".
I have already expressed my serious concerns and reservations about your use with the phrase "the best" - which in fact was the only aspect that brought me into this thread. It wasn't the cartridge.
We simply have very different positions here and my concerns are deeply rooted in my humanistic approach and the abuse this specific term and its direct "offsprings" have created in mankind and our history.
It is not "us experienced audio sommeliers" who are able to discover or define what is best or great.
It is an individual search and an individual discovery.
Many uncertain souls however do ask for and look for guidance and an opinion- leader.
This is the point when people like you jump into place and action.
It is not your fault of course.
You are chosen by others.
Anyway - just a side-step...
Many of us do strive for excellence in their respective set-ups and within the parameters of one's specific taste, likes, dislikes and wishes.
Once you can agree that those aspects listed in the sentence above are NOT the same with all people you'll see that the phrase "the best" is - well - an illusion.
And a very dangerous one.
Lastly - never accuse me again of writing long posts.... ;-)...... you are outperforming me by quite a margin in this respect. |
Hi Travbrow, please re-read my last post - my system may have changed a bit for the better, but even back then it was easily the equal of anything the industry offers today or what you may find here on A'gon.
And - no, the FR-tonearms aren't all that heavy anymore once you omit their insane original headshell and choose the correct balance. You will get outstanding and unparalleled ( in the most positive sense.... ;-).... ) results ( if aligned to the "right" geometry - which all too often it is not...) from a match with a FR-64s even with Miyabi, Koetsu or Lyra systems - and none of these is low compliance.
As mentioned before - the EPC-P100c/4 is a great performer for its price.
But unless you bribe me with insane amount of money, I won't give it more credit than that.
And I know why.
Come on folks, it can't be that difficult to accept that there are other opinions, points of view and maybe different biases ?
I have no problem if this cartridge is "the best" for any of you.
If so - great for you and fine for me.
If it ease your mind, just predict that I not able to accept this solitary status of this cartridge am either half-deaf, have no clue or am simply unexperienced ( or all three.... free choice). |
Hi Travbrow, other great cartridges?
Well - in no particular order and with different individual virtues:
- Shinon Red -2nd series
- Miyabi original
- Kiseki Purpleheart Shappire
- Sony XL-88 -2nd series
- Ikeda EMPL
and 3 others which I won't go public with.
2 of them were never available outside Japan.
1 never went to the custom market.
But you have the EPC-P100c/4 - no need to worry..... |
Dear Lewm, don't worry - I for one are married to a beautiful and shapely blonde.
And any sonic impression is only a matter of the moment anyway.
But -it will be fun.
4-5 hours by car from Geneva - or 40 minutes by plane.
Munich show is May 6th to 9th.
And believe me - Munich is at its very best in spring ! |
Dear Pedrillo,
we will hardly be able to agree about the periphery components ....
Anyway - let me suppose RMAF 2011.
I'll be there. |
Hi Downunder, great suggestion!
I'll be there.
Let's make the shoot-out at TW's room.
Bet he will be delighted to see a few of us.........;^) ..... |
Follow-up to Downunder's proposal:
how about everyone can name 3-5 records and one tonearm to work with and demonstrate the respective cartridge(s).
Maybe we will find a distributor/exhibitor who is interested in working with us and use the shoot-out as special promotional event.
Syntax - if interested at all - can join with his Miyabi and an Olympos.
I can even bring a small TT with me - equipped with my tonearm of choice.
Furthermore we could set-up a listening session at my private home - which is only a 45 minute drive from the show and situated at a lovely lakeside with great beer-garden and outstanding panorama view of the northern alps.
Meeting in person could get the egos and the posing out of the way and this could really be fun and refreshing to all.
And it would finally give real impressions - first hand ones - to everyone about the individual listening preferences of the other.
I know at least - off hand - 8 other Audiogoners who will certainly not wanna miss that.
And yes Downunder - in the very end each and everyone of us will always return to his individual taste.
Its natural - and frankly, would anyone prefer it any different? |
Dear Nandric, don't worry - I am peaceful and humanistic, despite my bad reputation...... ;-) ........ |
Even if we can't count on Raul for Munich iIgh-End show - how about having a meeting with those analog-A'goners who are coming in ?
I am here and can offer a good listen as well as some company while touring through the show.
And a nice shoot-out of the carts will be possible either way - at the show (shouldn't be too difficult to arrange) or in 1 or 2 private listening rooms. |
Mikelavigne, while Syntax has 2 Olympos (one of them really great...) he knows very well that even among his cartridge line-up it has fierce competition which it can not outperform.
With the RTR we have the old problem again - it has to be played via a RTR machine and that again is not out of question (it too will add and/or deduct quality) as it too is just a tape-recorder (if a big one...) and aside from perfect aligned C-37 with full NOS set of tubes, I really do not want to listen to any of the other RTRs around - far from calling them a reference. A truly great cart/arm set-up careful aligned on a decent TT will outperform 99.99% of all RTRs around aside from the very best tube-based pro-machines of days gone by ( the solid state output stage-RTRs are only a pale shade of what a RTR can do).
But as long as we play the very same record on various set-ups we will have a good test routine with at least one constant ( according to I. Kant and R. Steiner this one constant is all be need to move the universe...) among those cherish audio variables. |
Given the huge distances between us, I still believe the very best and most promising option is one of the major international audio events.
As these are ever diminishing in number, Munich as well as Denver seem to me the most suitable options. To coordinate the holiday vacation with our families and an audio meeting .... I certainly don't want to spoil the party, but that seems a really serious challenge to me.
At least my wife and son want me around during holidays and they both are interested in audio too......
Maybe Munich in early May is a good first step .... would be great if someone shows up. |
Mikelavigne, just checked and saw the A-820 listed and pictured in your system.
Sorry and by all means, don't take my remark about ss-based RTRs personal.
And yes, having had good relations to the Bavarian Broadcast as well as to two recording studios here in Munich I am pretty accustomed to the younger generation Studers too.
The improvement in speed stability and reduced vibration does not really make up for loss of dimensionality and low level dynamics compared to the C-37 - especially not when running at 15ips.
But this belongs somewhere else and RTRs are way behind me today. I had it, I put it to extreme and saw the borders and got some memorable experiences which helped me on my way with cartridge/tonearm set-up and the possible sound.
I respect your set-up and the A-820 is a fine machine. Should you ever run across a C-37 in fine shape with back-up set of original tubes you should nevertheless give it a serious thought - if you are really into RTR.
After all - all the truly great recordings till 1968 in Jazz, Pop and Classic alike were made on tube-based RTRs.
I am certainly no "tubes vs ss - choose sides! - audiophile".
I use both. I do believe in design - and I do get the results I want with either active devices. I use tubes in my preamplifier and ss in my power amps - partly SEss-OPT amps.
There is no audio-religion I follow - aside from true performance.
Results are all I am after.
Whatever rocks the house is fine with me. |
Raul, I can ( could...) provide a full differential balanced passive split RIAA phono stage with 100k AND 47k inputs for the MM/MI. Furthermore it has several transformers for all source impedances for LOMC and MOMC.
So we would have another constant in teh phono stage.
All inputs are RCA (pure solid silver) AND silver Neutrik XLRs - free choice.
It is tube based, but I too can provide either a Zanden, LAMM LP2 (highly mopdified), Boulder or Klyne.
So we would have "real world market"-alternatives too.
BTW - I was in Mexico City twice in 1994 when setting up my turntable there for a client. |
