Charles1dad
"But,to each his own"
Triode , words of wisdom. The low power amp/high efficiency combination seems to more sucesfully present the flesh and blood, living breathing presence that`s so convincing. This ability to consistently create such realism is what pull me over to this genre.(is it the much simpler circuits and fewer parts?). Trumpets,pianos,saxaphones and human voice is simply much closer to what I hear at live performances, the palpable reproduction is stunning at times.
Yes, this may be true for some such systems. But, one cannot say that is the exclusive domain of SET amps and high efficiency speakers. Just another way to get at natural/live performance with a sound system. It's a big audio world out there folks! Again, my current rig gets closer to what Charlesdad describes then my past horn/SET rigs.
To each his own and several roads can lead to the same destination. |
Through the years I have found that going down in amplifier power and up in speaker efficiency has given me the best sound. I am currently running an Altec 604 based speaker which is 101db. I have this matched up with 1 watt Serious Stereo 2A3 monoblocks. When called upon this combination can produce very high db levels in my 14 X 30 foot room. |
Apogee Stages were notoriously inefficient, but, for what they did, were in a class by themselves. |
Weseixas, I think you might want to recalculate that. |
Grannyring,
We`re in agreement, I`m just expressing my personal experiences as you are yours, we`ve just found different routes. If you`re as pleased with your music as I am then we`re both very happy. |
Hi 06-26-11: Charles1dad,
err no ...
regards, |
Hello Unsound,
@ 15 feet the 100db/w/m horn would have an out put of 76 db/w the planer would have an output of 74db/w, what is it you want me to refigure ...?
regards, |
OK as i had mentioned manytimes before we need to give an REFERENCE when we are determining sensitivity each meter represents a 6 db drop for the horn as opposed to to a 3 db drop for a planer/ribbon/ESL linesource.
We cannot compare Sensitivity without setting parameters ,giving references and comparing apples.
Regards, |
Agreed Charles1dad. Your system is awesome and I have always had an interest in both your amps and preamp. Very nicely put together. |
Would any builders of horns care to comment? I don`t believe horns lose 6db per 1 meter at all, 3db is the correct value. |
Hello Charles1dad,
To achive 94 db@5M the SET.horn combination in my eg would require 64 watts from it's 20 watter, the planer approx 90 watts from it's 200 watt amp.
Also to achieve realistic size, dynamics and lowest distortion( not just the loudest spl) we have found most amplifiers give there best presentation @ approx 33% of rated output. ( avg Din)
Regards, |
One question for you Charles1dad,
How would you describe the bass performance of your system? Are you able to get a nice foundation on all kinds of music? I like body or "meat on the bones' if you will. I share many of the same sonic goals as you and respect the system you have put together. A friend of mine owns the Total Victory speakers and I do find them wonderful sounding. |
Ahhh Charles1dad,
A cylindrical horn does, it is the same as a linesource, unfortunately some call small waveguides horn and there qouted sensitivity is misleading ...
My Point;
We have to be careful when we compare speakers and there listed sensitivities....
regards, |
Also in a system where the bass driver is loaded directly to the room, the drop off between both drivers are different in the critical lowmid/midbass region .
When purchasing such an hybrid setup system listening distance is very important and should be noted...
regards, |
Hence the 3 db drop of per doubling would only apply to the Conical upper midrange/high horn and not to the system as a whole with these hybrid horn systems...
regards, |
Gentlemen, I believe that the losses that are being referred to as being "per meter" should be "per doubling of distance."
I'm not particularly knowledgeable about horns, but I suspect that the 6db number is correct, *on that basis*.
If so, the 100db/W/1m would correspond to 94db/W/2m, and 88db/W/4m, and 86.06db/W/5m, according to my calculations.
Best regards,
-- Al |
Hello Al,
Per meter = doubling of measured reference distance..
regards, |
Comparing a planar to a horn is like comparing a slingshot to a rifle.
When was the last time you attended a concert or a sporting event in a stadium or arena where planar speakers were used for sound reinforcement?
If your answer is "never", then maybe you were listening to horns. And maybe horns were used because the deluded engineers are horn zealots. Maybe if they had the sense of a weseixas they would have used panels instead.
Or, maybe horns were used because they project sound better and convey dynamics better.
The arguments above comparing 200 watts on a planar to 2 watts in a horn are silly. If you want intimate presentation in a confined space, then SET might be your best choice. But if you are looking for the Power and the Glory, then put your 200 watts on the horns and forget that planars exist because you won't be able to hear them.
I own a Prius and I love it - but I'm not going to get in a pissing contest with truck owners over towing capability. Planars are nice in the drawing room - they allow for polite conversation. |
Grannying,
Thanks for the kind comments, I have equal admiration for your system(Dude and Sound Labs, nice). The bass performance in my system is very good although a 300b SET is`nt the final solution for bass freaks of rock and electronica,hip-hop etc.The Frankenstein amps do acoustic jazz bass and classical bass/cello in a very gratifying manner with much speed,articulation and texture. There`s natural bloom and warmth without crossing the line into fat,bloated and sloppy characteristics.Of course my speaker`s 94 db efficiency and 14 ohm load make for a good match with 8 watts of power. |
Anything scientific to add macrojack?....thought so, this is not about horns vs the world , so no need for your insecurities to fly !!!
We are discussing sensitivity more over i'm trying to point out it is not as simple as comparing the published numbers, but what we really need is to determine what is low/med/high sensitivity.
Eg: is it ,
low ... Below 86db/w/m
Med..... Below 96 db/w/m
high ... below 106 db/w/m
Then we will now have to determine, direct radiator, waveguide,planer/linesource, conical horn/hybrid, full conical horn system.. et al ...
Then there is application .. easy as most if not all are discussing domestic listening environment, so your auditorium straw argument wont fly and is not necessary.
Then there is impedance magnitude and phase, critical in determining how we are going to drive the beast..
Fact is most planer/linesource will easily exceed 100db in most listrening environment as will some of the larger direct radiators, so there is no shortfall in the domestic environement when it comes to dynamics, regarless of weapon choosen, of course amplfication for the application will have to be correctly choosen, that's academic.
So IMO sensitivity numbers by themselves does not a better speaker make ..
regards |
Note:
OP had used the word efficiency, but it was obvious he mean't sensitivity..
regards, |
06-26-11: Weseixas
Hello Al,
Per meter = doubling of measured reference distance.. So therefore in your example, when you said ... 06-26-11: Weseixas
@ 15 feet the 100db/w/m horn would have an out put of 76 db/w ... To achive 94 db@5M the SET.horn combination in my eg would require 64 watts from it's 20 watter ... the 76db/w figure should be 86db/w (as I indicated in my previous post), and the power requirement would be only 6.4 watts, not 64 watts. Best regards, -- Al |
Hello AL,
No your calculations are off the distance increase is 4M making the reduction 24 DB for a total of 76..
Regards, |
06-26-11: Weseixas
Hello AL,
No your calculations are off the distance increase is 4M making the reduction 24 DB for a total of 76.. If 6db is lost going from 1 meter to 2 meters (and I have no particular knowledge of whether or not that is true for any particular horn design, but I'm making that assumption, as I indicated in my initial post above), then it seems to me that another 6db would be lost going from 2 meters to 4 meters (not 2 meters to 3 meters). And then another 1.94db, according to my calculations, going from 4 meters to 5 meters, for a total loss of 6 + 6 + approx. 2 = 14db. I can't see how the loss can be 6db per meter for each of the additional 4 meters. That makes no sense to me. The loss is due mainly to the wave "spreading out," not to the attenuation of the air. Best regards, -- Al |
AL,
Yes 15 db down not 24 , my apologies guys ..... |
After the correction the linesouce in the eg would not give anything up to the SET setup and will still have more dynamics..97/99
Regards,
|
Lots of wrong info enjoy it. |
JohnK,
I would love to hear your informed opinion. I`m no speaker designer nor an engineer, but I just don`t believe weseixas`s numbers are accurate in the horn/planar comparison. At least they don`t match what I have heard in my experiences concerning sound pressure(not comparing sound quality issues). |
I have found that using efficient speakers, besides the wide dynamic swings, is the ease of use of a smaller amplifier, which sounds so much more natural and detailed than a much larger amplifier, of the same design topology, imo/ime. This has not been the case with speakers of low to medium efficiency, where the larger output amps are more desirable. |
Grannyring have you settled in with the m1's and are you glad you bought them;any negatives? |
Rleff, I love mine and they will stay for a long time. It was a bit tricky getting the right amp however. I really got lucky finding that Sunfire Signature 600 as it seems perfectly suited for the M1's.
I did several mods to the backplates that really made them more dynamic and intimate sounding.
I also got the room placement thing down for me.
What about you.... |
Gannyring-Running the m2's with audiovalve challanger 180 monoblocks;
excellant sound and no complaints;now only if I can take some bucks out of trumps pocket in Alantic City maybe some ma2's would be fun to hear them;I am good for now. |
Been looking at drivers lately.
Let's say we want 30-40 Hz capable woofer. Generalizations. Argue about speaker specs, excursion, quality and range in another thread. If you don't believe me, look at the pro drivers at Parts Express.
At 84 dB W/m, that will probably require a 6.5 to 8 inch driver in a 1 to 1.5 cu ft box. Double up the drivers (half the impedance) and the box size and you get another 6 dB.
At 90 dB W/m, that would be a 10 to 12" in a 3 cu ft box.
At 96 dB W/m, that's 15 or 18" in a 6 cu ft box.
Okay, active subs have made the bass aspect less critical but then, you have to balance control and different kinds of distortion and there's compromises either way. |
Hi Ngjockey,
My experience with pro parts is not what you are referencing above.
6 inch are usually 93 to 99 sensitivity, next doubling 8 ohm drivers will add 3 db, but if your amp does not double its power to 4 ohms, you won't get a 6db gain. Same with the drivers you have labled from 10 to 15 inch. Typically the price paid for sensitivity is low end extention.
If you will look at a few parts from Eminence (they make some hi eff stuff for bag end), Audax PR series, some B&C, PHL & others you'll find plenty drivers that are mid to upper 90's in a single driver. I have participated in a few threads on Agon on this subject. I hope this helps,
Tim |
Are you saying that an amplifier will have to have fixed current to sound good on horns ... ? Weseixas, No. A constant power characteristic seems to be adequate, although Nelson Pass has shown that constant current amps work well for this as well. Your comment about transformers seems to be a red herring; if you are talking about an output transformer, they occur in amps that are constant voltage, constant power and constant current. IOW an output transformer has no bearing in this discussion. Unsound is correct in his surmise that I was referring to peak levels. Those who say that hearing damage is an issue at volumes like this are correct, however those same people should keep in mind that a real orchestra can reach these peaks with similar consequence. However an orchestra will sound real doing it, and most audio systems that are capable of that sound pressure don't, usually because of artifacts generated by the amplification. I was simply pointing out that a horn system would allow peaks like that to happen without said artifact, if you use the right amp. Unsound and I part ways in the matter of horns that can sound like real music: I have heard some that he has not and so have this opinion. Weseixas mentioned something about a planar magnetic and a very high powered amp doing the same sound pressure. Its true that it can, but you would not want to be in the same room due to the artifacts I alluded to earlier. Now if a magnetic planar had the same sort of efficiencies they might be worth a try. IOW this points directly to the issue of why efficiency is so important! In a nutshell, the only amps that are capable of sounding like real music don't make anywhere near 2000 watts- you need the efficiency. |
Atmasphere, are you referring to some horn speakers you've heard that are so exclusive that I couldn't have possibly heard them? |
Timlub,
The 84 to 90 dB drivers would NOT be pro drivers. More typical of brands like Scanspeak, Morel, etc. Mentioned "pro" to illustrate higher sensitivity drivers in a separately listed category.
You're right about the gain for 4 ohm. Wasn't being specific. |
Unsound, I don't know. I can tell you this- one of them got "Best Sound at Show" at CES a few years ago, from Jonathan Valin of TAS. He followed up at the succeeding RMAF by saying that the new version of that same speaker (being played at that show) was the biggest improvement he had ever heard in any speaker!
I can add that I had an opinion similar to yours in the past- I thought all horns sucked. Boy was I wrong. Now I am of the opinion that horns, like all other speaker technologies, have unique pitfalls which can be avoided. If this is done they can be as musical or more musical (without coloration) as any of the best of competing speaker technologies.
Given your stance, I have to conclude that if you are being truthful about your position then you simply have yet to hear the speakers I'm talking about. |
This is an assanine thread. |
Well, what are they then? |
Atmasphere,
I think in the minority paradigm that your products operate in, which you wholeheartedly believe in for good reasons, the answer to the ops question has a much better chance of being "yes" than in general. Still not a guaranteed yes though I suspect.
But the rules that apply in one case/paradigm mostly do not apply in the other. Another reason why the only possible answer to the ops question as stated, for whatever it may be worth, is "no". |
In a real world scenario, the ops question is impossible to answer. In theory "all things being equal" makes his answer yes. Maybe a couple of you guru's can figure it out, but when you leave theory, I see this as an oxy moron and not answerable. |
too much complicated answer required for this question. it never be the same conditions. if the original thread starter asks what i think he is asking answer is- they DO in general sound diferent. high eficiency speaker sin general have more lively "imediatly" sound which is always exciting, bass is always tight,but "hard hitting to chest"
never have hear high eficiency speaker with diferent bass- most models differs very litle in this aspect.
low eficiency speakers in general have more reserved and more refined/calm in midrange. bass mostly is punchier, softer and "vibrating stomach"
I find stange coreliation between eficiency and wanting to listening loud- HE speakers can play very loud and clean but for some reason I do not want listen clasical loud with them (rock- maybe)
LE speakers on the other hand are not able to produce so loud sound, and expieenced listener can hear dicorted sound in bass with bass heavy music , but most of them for some sound very calm (in good mean) and realistic on loud levels. |
Mapman, the simple fact is that any speaker that has high efficiency conforms to the Power Paradigm unless the designer went through extraordinary steps to prevent that.
All SETs and most zero-feedback amps are also on this paradigm. Yes, it is a 'minority' technology but in the opinions of the designers of such its the technology that offers the possibility of real music, as opposed to something that sounds like a stereo.
Now the Power Paradigm offers that possibility of being that much closer to the music. The idea is that the technology is totally committed to the rules of human hearing, which I think all of us can agree is the foundation of audio; without our ears we would not play with audio gear at all.
OTOH the Voltage Paradigm is all about looking good on paper (IOW pays little attention to human hearing rules), which our ears could give a damn about.
So going to higher efficiency is clearly an access to transformation in sound quality. Of course its better! |
Atmsphere, of course that is only your opinion, many if not most, have come to the opposite conclusion. |
I believe it was Earl Geddes who said, "Science is not a democracy".
What he meant is simply this: Facts are facts and are not subject to voter approval.
No matter how many fools choose to disagree with him, Atmasphere remains correct in his statement. |
You guys are missing some key points. All speaker designers want to have high efficiency but you can't always get it without compromising something else, like frequency response or a changing impedance. As in most engineering, you have to make choices and it's up to the designer to make the changes he/she wants, efficiency is one of the first to get compromised. |
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You know guys, it seems to me that the op really just wanted to know if if efficiency is something to seek out.
We have all blown this up. I have built speakers from 84 db sensitivity to 99 db sensitivity... The all sounded quite good in their own right. In my experience, there is no requirement of high sensitivity to make really fine sounding speaker, nor do really high or low sensitivity speakers sound one better than the other. They do have different requirements for power and placement and what type of amp that they sound best with.....
The good news is that the ops question as written is truly impossible. |
Efficiency in of itself is a good thing.
But alone, efficiency means nothing except volume.
I think we can all agree there is more to it than just that? |
