Is revealing always good?

Cool Zd542, we are on the same page then. Thanks.

"04-06-15: Bombaywalla

I wish that were the case, but its not always true. Sometimes you have the system set up properly, and the CD's still sound bad.

Zd542, i might have to disagree with you here - i've found that once you setup a system which has minimal distortions (for a particular budget i.e. $), then, well-recorded CDs sound good. The ones that continue to sound bad are the ones that were badly recorded, are compressed & have other maladies."

I should have been more clear. You're right. If you get everything setup properly, the recording itself is what will hold you back.

Thanks for your kind words, Charles1dad.

Bombaywalla,
Hello, I have to agree with your distinction between true transparency and revealing as compared to the hi-fi vernacular of those terms. When people complain of too much transparency, I have written before that this in reality makes no sense, you can never have too much true transparency. The problem is as you clearly pointed out is that the false tilted up high frequency information is confused with being a more revealing sound, wrong conclusion. In my opinion the more genuine revealing and transparency that you are able to achieve, the more natural and realistic your music will actually sound. You'll hear more nuance which is desirable. So, count me as another person who agrees with your well written explanation.
Charles,

04-03-15: Cerrot
Bombatwalla, excellent explanation. I enjoyed reading it. Thanks,

thanks Cerrot.
(sorry I did not respond earlier).

Is revealing always good?
I recently bought a very revealing and transparent CD player (and AVM player). Because I listen to redbook CD's and 705 of the CD's I listen to are jazz recordings from ca. 1955-1963 the recordings often have bad "digititus." The piano's ring, clarinet is harsh, transients are blurred --- just the nature of the recordings. With a revealing CD player, all this was palpably evident so much so that at least 1/2 those CD's were rendered unlistenable. Now, with a cheaper, more colored CD player (a new Creek) --- not nearly as revealing --- one that "rounds off" some of this digititus, these CD's are again listenable.....

This para by the OP is written with a derogatory slant to maligning the "revealing" & "transparent" nature of the AVM CDP. (I have no idea whether the AVM CDP is actually revealing & transparent but will simply accept the OP's word that it is).
So, I'll go back to my 04/01/15 post where I wrote that the OP has a high distortion component or components in his signal chain that have now been disclosed since installing the AVM CDP into the system. This/these components need to be identified & changed out or modified to reduce/eliminate the distortion.

So... is revealing a particularly good thing for redbook CD playback? I think not. is "colored" always a bad thing? I'd say no. At least for CD playback. Thoughts?
Robsker

The way the preceding para was written with a derogatory slant to 'revealing' & 'transparent', the conclusion that Robsker came to is self-fulfilling to a "no". I noted this negative slant in the OP's opening para hence wrote (in my 04/01/15 post) that revealing in this particular sense is not good as it speaks of distortion.

In reality, you actually do want "revealing" & "Transparent" (as Kijanki also wrote) in a positive sense such that one's system is "low distortion & accurate". I've noted that the best systems are always accurate/low-distortion/revealing in a positive/good way. In such accurate/low-distortion/revealing systems, increasing the volume simply increases the SPL & distortion still remains minimal (of course to a point until the preamp &/or power amp have output signals that are close to their max). Such accurate/low-distortion/revealing systems are (what I call) a chameleon in that they had no sonic signature of their own but take on the sonic signature of the source material. Of course, there are very few systems that are 100% this way but the aim is to make one's system trend in this direction as much as one's pocket-book & listening room would allow. The pleasures from such a system are long-term as such a system will always convey the emotion of the music to engage the listener.
Badly recorded CDs still sound bad but are very much listenable.....

you do not want "colored" in digital playback as that is also a distortion; the only thing is that it is a distortion that is more euphonic/pleasing to the ear. One will be satisfied with such a sound for a short while but will yearn for more accurate sound very soon. There are several tube components of the 1970s, 1980s that had a certain "tube glow" to them. All very nice until you heard a more accurate system & realized how much better the sound could be.

Thanks for the feedback Nonoise & Kijanki. good for me to note that I'm not the only one who feels this way...... :-)

Bombaywalla, to me it also means "low distortion & accurate sounding". Many low-end systems sound muffled to me and that might be good in comparison to open sounding low-end systems projecting brightness harshness and distortion, but to me revealing is the objective. I had problem with many CDs sounding harsh or bright with new revealing DAC and amp. Changing speakers made sound even more revealing but pretty much all CDs sound good now.

Early CDs were digitized with jittery A/D converters. The only way to fix it is to digitize them again if original analog master tapes still exist. They will sound harsh but would you make your whole system less revealing just because of that?

Spot on Bombaywalla.

Most posts here, whether it be when someone speaks of a cables ability to unravel nuances, or a speakers penchant for accuracy, or in this case, a CDP that reveals, the feedback seems to bring a lot of baggage from other threads.

I love detail and the ability to hear all that's going on without the harshness or etch. Both are completely different arguments yet they are too often conflated and lead to some long and heated diatribes, with folk speaking past each other.

All the best,
Nonoise

CORRECTION to the last para of my prev post - the way I interpreted the OP's definition of "revealing" was with reference to context of his entire post which, to me, indicated that certain portions of the frequency spectrum were accentuated/emphasized at the expense of others which made his old recordings CDs unlistenable. My 04/01/15 response was based on that interpretation of "revealing".
More often than not on Audiogon forums people have used "revealing" & "transparent" in derogatory terms to indicate that their play-back audio spectrum is tipped in favoring one region of the audio spectrum or the other.
In my mind I would like "revealing" & "transparent" to mean "low distortion & accurate sounding" but that''s not the way i read the posts most of the time - most of the time people are complaining that their component/system is "revealing", "transparent" & the OPs orig post is just one such example.

I wish that were the case, but its not always true. Sometimes you have the system set up properly, and the CD's still sound bad.

Zd542, i might have to disagree with you here - i've found that once you setup a system which has minimal distortions (for a particular budget i.e. $), then, well-recorded CDs sound good. The ones that continue to sound bad are the ones that were badly recorded, are compressed & have other maladies.

Are you sure that you're not confusing revealing with poor timbre? For example, if you have a system where a cymbal sounds like someone dropped a piece of metal on a concrete floor, that would be a problem because timbre is wrong. It has nothing to do with how revealing the system is.

yes, I'm not mixing up timbre & revealing.
In fact, what you wrote above in the quote is a distortion for sure. When you have distortion in your components (& the system in general) many things (& often even everything) is wrong including timbre, timing, soundstage & the ability to reveal the nuances of the music.

Another way to consider this issue, and I suspect this may be what you are referring to in your post, is that you can have a "mixed bag" of components. For example, maybe you have an amp that produces a high level of detail with little distortion, with a preamp that does not. You then have a situation where one well designed component, shows the flaws in another.

correct. that's what i'm saying. It's not wrong to have a "mixed bag" of components if what you mean by "mixed bag" is components from different manufacturers. Is that what you mean by "mixed bag" of components?
I've found that there are several manuf within each $ budget that make the lowest distortion, most accurate component. The trick is to find that manuf & that component. If one goes about selecting one's components this way one is bound to end up with diff manuf for the various components but if each component is minimal distortion & accurate sounding then the system as a whole will maintain that attribute.

I recently bought a very revealing and transparent CD player ....

what in the world does this sentence mean??
Obviously I interpreted it one way (in my mind it meant "low distortion, accurate sounding") & my earlier 04/01/15 response was based on that while Zd542 interpreted it another way (& I'm sure that other members have interpreted it in still other ways).

"Once you replace the offending electronics & convert to a time-coherent speaker (which is minimum phase over most of the audio bandwidth. When I say most i mean something like 200Hz - 8 or 10KHz) all your CDs will become listenable once again. The bad recordings from the early era of Jazz will still be bad recordings but they will be listenable & you will enjoy the music from them."

I wish that were the case, but its not always true. Sometimes you have the system set up properly, and the CD's still sound bad.

"So, no "revealing" is not good because it signifies distortion/high levels of distortion."

That sounds a little extreme. Some people pay a lot of money for components that reveal more of whats on the recording. I don't see how you could call that distortion at all. Are you sure that you're not confusing revealing with poor timbre? For example, if you have a system where a cymbal sounds like someone dropped a piece of metal on a concrete floor, that would be a problem because timbre is wrong. It has nothing to do with how revealing the system is. You could even argue that a harshness in the high frequencies is less revealing. (Assuming, of course, that the recording itself is not at fault.). In a case like this, more revealing would mean having a system that can properly reproduce timbre so a cymbal would sound more like a cymbal, than noise.

Another way to consider this issue, and I suspect this may be what you are referring to in your post, is that you can have a "mixed bag" of components. For example, maybe you have an amp that produces a high level of detail with little distortion, with a preamp that does not. You then have a situation where one well designed component, shows the flaws in another.

Bombatwalla, excellent explanation. I enjoyed reading it. Thanks,

That would be an excellent argument for going back to boom boxes.

I recently bought a very revealing and transparent CD player (and AVM player). Because I listen to redbook CD's and 705 of the CD's I listen to are jazz recordings from ca. 1955-1963 the recordings often have bad "digititus." The piano's ring, clarinet is harsh, transients are blurred --- just the nature of the recordings. With a revealing CD player, all this was palpably evident so much so that at least 1/2 those CD's were rendered unlistenable. Now, with a cheaper, more colored CD player (a new Creek) --- not nearly as revealing --- one that "rounds off" some of this digititus, these CD's are again listenable.

So... is revealing a particularly good thing for redbook CD playback? I think not. is "colored" always a bad thing? I'd say no. At least for CD playback. Thoughts?
Robsker

What you are hearing in your playback system is high levels of distortion that appears to you as "revealing". People have come up with ingenious names for distortion & "revealing" is just one of them. You have some inexpensive component in your system & you also have high distortion loudspeakers that are making many of your CDs unlistenable.
Once you replace the offending electronics & convert to a time-coherent speaker (which is minimum phase over most of the audio bandwidth. When I say most i mean something like 200Hz - 8 or 10KHz) all your CDs will become listenable once again. The bad recordings from the early era of Jazz will still be bad recordings but they will be listenable & you will enjoy the music from them.
So, no "revealing" is not good because it signifies distortion/high levels of distortion.

Recordings are works of art that should be reproduced as accurately as possible fbofw.

Those old paintings by Michelangelo are showing their age. Someone should do something about that. 😏

If the recording is harsh, you need to know if the performance was harsh. If it was, no problem. If it wasn't, you need to fix it, not cover it up. If she ain't pretty, wearing dark glasses won't make her prettier.

Another option is to use a speaker switch box and have warm, easy-to-listen-to speakers in the front corners and higher def speakers situated more forward into the room. If the recording is harsh, press the button that changes the speakers. Or do it manually. Or just use warm, easy-to-listen-to speakers.

I got sick of this too and switched to pro stuff, big JBLs which sound good more often than the audiophile speakers I have tried over the years.

when it reveals shortcomings of a bad recording, you have succeeded. You dont want to pollute your rig so it makes bad recordings sound acceptable. What you can do is try to make them sound better. My "bad' recordings all went away when I got a new killer preamp, upgraded cables and controlled my vibration and ground as well as finally did something with my room. My motown CDs do show the treble boost but that is on the recording. What you can do is get either a lesser cartridge or lesser cd player (cheaper, not too good at revealing all the flaws, for those 'bad' recordings). You still have a revealing system (better cartridge/cd player for the good recordings) and you haven't compromised your rig. For me, I could not rest until the bad recordings sounded awesome. There really are very few very poor recordings. Even what seems like compressed pop cd's from the 70s can sound better off a hard drive, resampled/clocked and then going through a really good system. You really want to be able to play everything-audiophile cd & vinyl as well as stream tidal and all of it make your jaw drop. Dont compromise...and in order to not compromise, you need to reveal.

I think "revealing" is good up to a point. It's great when it's revealing a great recording but when it reveals all the naked shortcomings of a bad recording it may not be so good. Especially considering there are far fewer of the former and many more of the latter.

Completely agree!
I think it can be achieved.
Choose your gear carefully, combine well and your system can be extremely revealing whilst remaining easy on the ear and a pleasure te listen to.

Bad recordings won't sound so bad anymore, much will be revealed of them in a way that makes the most out of it, not ruin it.

Agree that one component or cable in a system can ruin this balance.
It is always easy to blame the recording.

"Hey, didn't this used to be a bad recording?"
I have though many times in the past:)

I think the problem is people's idea of what the word "revealing" actually means. I know many folks who feel that revealing equipment/cables, are those that highlight the upper frequencies, and thereby seem to offer more resolution. This makes for entertaining HiFi, but not for natural music.

I prefer a more neutral sound, one that neither highlights the upper frequencies hoping to inspire a heightened sense of resolution, or one that highlights the lower frequencies hoping to inspire a heightened sense of musicality.

I like to call it naturally revealing. There is plenty of information there, but not artificially stimulated sound.

I feel revealing is a must but its only 'good' if it reveals a system that sounds good. If there is a flaw in the system, a revealing CD player will make that flaw shine. Most say they dont want that and would rather mask a flaw with another flaw. A good sounding system that satisfies you emotionally should be revealing so you can get as close to the performance as you can.

Active Pre-amps do three things in my estimation

1) control volume
2) Provide inputs and outputs
3) make sources sound a particular way

The first two are required if not provided elsewhere. The third is optional but I find to be most useful when multiple different sounding sources are used in order to bring more uniformity to the sound overall. Whether one likes that sound or not is mostly a subjective judgement I think. I can understand where one might deem most to not add any value in the third regard if bases are covered already otherwise.

03-18-15: Audioengr

"I have found that active preamps under the... $10K... mark, particularly solid-state are usually poor and add the most sibilance and compression to systems."
........................................................

Are you really serious??? That's the most ridiculous statement on audio equipment that I have read in some time. Audioengr,do you mean to tell me that you have actually listened to "every" SS pre/line amp out there? An across the board statement like that has zero valadation...

Revealing systems which are not forward sounding can and do sound very good on poorer recordings.

If one has a bright and forward biased system, watch out, at louder volumes can and will make one run from the room.

But on the otherhand, even this bright and revealing system playing a better recording will sound pretty fine, it's a matter of balance.

Not if its revealing noise and/or distortion.

Otherwise yes. It's hard to argue that a cleaner signal is bad somehow.

A revealing, resolving system is superior, however all it takes is one sibilant component or cable to skew the balance and make it harsh sounding. It is possible to have your cake and eat it too, but not inexpensively.

One can certainly add tubes or cables with roll-off to deal with this, but ultimately you are going down the garden path, not improving the overall system.

The best thing is to identify the offending component or cable and replace it.

Typical offenders are active preamps that are too cheap. I have found that active preamps under the $10K mark, particularly solid-state are usually poor and add the most sibilance and compression to systems. This is why I use either a transformer passive linestage or the volume control in my DAC, which is not like a preamp.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

I've come to the conclusion the only thing I look for is musical-ness, everything else is irrelevant.

JaFreeman --- THANK YOU!

I replaced my 6CG7 tubes that came with my AVA preamp (a Transcendence 8+) --- which were new Russian tubes --- with NOS Sov Tec tubes and all the etch and grain went away and the difference is rather amazing! Many CD's I could not enjoy before I can now enjoy. Why does AVA put crap tubes in their gear?

Again... thanks JaFreeman, your counsel helped a great deal.

Also, if a better player does not make anything sound better, can it really be a "better player"? Does not make any sense.

Lowering the noise and distortion is the key. That would be inherent in a better player, but alone does not assure success in that noise and distortion can come from many sources and the best gear is not necessarily immune. If you get a handle on noise and distortion, anything will sound the best it can. Of course some recordings include noise and distortion, by design or by oversight as well. A better player will reveal everything and allow one to determine what belongs and what does not.

"Conversely, hard rock/metal music sounds really bad on an excellent CD player- I live w/ this. "

I find hard rock/metal sounds similar on my system to what I hear live in different venues. That for all kinds of music is what I strive for with my home setup. The room end up being the biggest bottleneck in that it is hard to reproduce the sound of a large venue in a smaller room. Other than that, no complaints.

I recommend NOS Siemens or Telefunken tubes. At a minimum, military tubes. Nothing in current production is very good. Same with most tubes.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Rob, regarding tube equivalents for your 6CG7's, just call one of the many on-line tube stores. I had the convenience of going to my high-end retailer, who gave me a set of Sovtek tubes, supplied by ARC for retail replacements in their gear. In the case of my AVA amps, circa 2000, Russian beat Chinese to a very high degree of improvement, but there a lots of fine tubes that will improve your sound. Also, if you have been under the AVA philosophy of "any cable will do", maybe look into some finer cords and cables, but don't spend too much--save for your next amp upgrade.

There are a couple of issues going on here.

1. The new CD player is demonstrating an effect whereby, the music played shows faults in the recordings. This subject has been discussed before. It may be necessary to hang onto an older cd player in order to listen to the older recordings. Also, with the new player, if the newer recordings are better, through the new player as opposed to the older player, it makes sense to have the new player for better quality cd recordings.

2. Listening to the new piece of equipment in your home system before purchasing. This really is the way to go. I am a firm advocate of taking equipment home to listen before purchasing. My favorite store allows me to do this. Because a) they would have my credit card information and would charge the amount if I failed to return the item and b) they know that I'm not a lookee loo and will purchase the item if I like it.

If the item is fairly expensive, which most high end equipment is, it is really unreasonable for stores to not allow one to do a home demonstration for a few days at the minimum.

to expect me to come out of pocket for large sums without such in-home demonstration is not reasonable to me.

As far as revealing, I have found that better equipment does indeed "reveal" the issues of other equipment to the extent that further upgrading may be necessary.

An example for me was my purchase years ago of the Audio Research REF 3 pre-amp. I took it home for an in-home demonstration (San Diego to Los Angeles), and compared it to my existing retubed AR SP 11 pre-amp. I found that many of my older cd recordings sounded really bad. some like a tweeter was aimed directly at my ear. Bad recordings and bad recording equipment. Not so much through the SP 11. But, the newer recordings through the REF 3 was absolutely wonderful. Don't get me wrong, the newer recordings through the SP 11 also sounded great. Just that the REF 3 "revealed" faults in my older cd recordings that I didn't hear so much with the SP 11.

I'm very happy with the REF 3 and I guess there are some recordings that I can't sit through anymore.

Oh well.

enjoy

"01-28-15: Czarivey
Why d'u think women have cosmetic pouch handy?"

They may need to powder their nose. Why else?

Robsker-

I enjoy revealing, as most CDs, are well-recorded. Conversely, hard rock/metal music sounds really bad on an excellent CD player- I live w/ this. Like yourself, my love of Jazz keeps me happy. Some CDs will be hit-and-miss. I also enjoy SACD(s). Get out there and listen, listen, listen to all of the different spinners. Happy Listening!

Audioengr:

I doubtless have a ground-loop hum issue. I have tried to resolve this with cheater plugs w/o success. Perhaps i am not using the cheater plugs rightly in the isolation of the hum issue. But I have ground loop issues (or, at least what I think are ground loop issues) that i do not know how to resolve. Any help would be appreciated.

Your contention is that this could be the culprit. I'd love some counsel. Thanks Audioengr (Steve)

Jafreeman:

i am very much open to the notion of a tube change out. I am using the stock tubes. No... I am in boondocks Idaho very near Yellowstone --- wonderful area, beautiful... but remote from ... well everything.

My preamp is an AVA transcendence 9 with 2 6CG7 tubes in the line section. Do you have suggestions for replacement tubes (and a vendor of choice)?

Revealing systems have teh most up side.

But they reveal noise and distortion as well as the source material. Do what you can to minimize noise and distortion and only then can one judge the merit of a highly revealing system

"With these CDs the revealing player sounds biting, harsh and "lets through everything."

From my recent experience, if this happens regularly with many recordings, there is a good chance it is noise and distortion sneaking into your system somewhere upstream that is the problem, not each individual CD. Are you using any power conditioning? I've found both power conditioners and power cords like Pangea 14 series to be effective as designed to reduce noise and distortion that contributes to a subtle edge in the music. Those are good investments that need not cost a lot. Try that first maybe before changing anything else.

Why d'u think women have cosmetic pouch handy? Revealing isn't always good true!

"01-28-15: Dopogue
Since I've never experienced your "too revealing" problem and have had a ton of CD/SACD players -- from $60 Toshibas to my current $3600 Oppo/Modwright -- I have to believe the problem lies elsewhere in your system. Without knowing the components of your system, though, it's impossible even to generalize.

One thing sure, IMO: It is NOT "just the nature of the recordings."

People love to blame the recordings. I used to as well. Its fair enough. People like what they like and vice versa. But my experience has been that if you have reached that conclusion you need to take a step back and look at the things you have control over more thoroughly. The recordings are what they are. Its your system and expectations that you can control. Do that and any music lover should have no problem enjoying most of the recordings that they care about.

I'm with Maplegrovemusic 100% on this. :^)

"So... a theoretical question for all... do tubes (in a pre-amp or the CD player) color and obscure the digititus that is on the disk and thereby give a smoother more listenable presentation?"

No. Any time you buy tube products just because they're tube, in an attempt to fix a problem, you're just asking for trouble. Same thing with cables. Buy components based on how they sound. I know some people will disagree and say buy tubes, and my answer to that is, you can get lucky. Tube products vary in how they sound, every bit as much as SS does. Focus on what the end result needs to be, or you won't get one.

Right now, your situation seems to be OK with the 2 CD players. I do the same thing. I have my nice, high end components with my Wadia CD player set up for the best sound I can get, and for bad recordings I use my Arcam 33. Its not a perfect solution, but it works.

Another thing you may want to consider, depending on how much of your collection is poorly recorded, is to just have a 2nd system set up to be very forgiving.

Robsker, if you are using the stock tubes supplied by AVA, try replacing them with something else, e.g., tubes recommended by ARC and sold by your high-end dealer who may represent ARC products. i did this with two older AVA fet valve amps, and the etch and grit came down a lot. Are you in the Twin Cities area?

In my revealing system some CDs were unbearable but changing speakers solved the problem. Now it is even more revealing but never bright. There might be many reasons for brightness including some metal dome tweeters, amps with deep negative feedback, jitter, electrical noise etc. Covering the problem with overly warm/colored component is not the way to go IMHO.

John Siau, technical director of Benchmark, stated:

We designed the DAC1 for maximum transparency. If you want to add warmth, you can't add it with a DAC1. Personally, I do not like what warm sounding equipment does to the sound of a piano. Warmth is wonderful on vocals, guitars and certain instruments, but it beats against the streched overtones of a piano. The overtones in a piano occur at slightly higher than harmonic ratios, and these create beat notes with the exact integer ratios produced by electronic equipment (and speakers). Too much harmonic distortion will make a piano sound out of tune.

There are many dimensions so digital sound. Revealing or "focus" is only one of them. Jitter is the biggest issue with most digital. Jitter can make things harsh, even though the mid-frequencies are in sharp focus. Other frequency ranges can be blurred. Jitter has a frequency component, amplitude component and distribution component. You can have any mix of these.

Another thing that can cause the kind of sibilance you are experiencing is HF extension that you have not had before. If you have a sibilant component or cable in your system, once the signal is extended and focused it can cause this sibilant component to "activate". Suddenly you have sibilance where you had none before. This is fairly typical of preamps based on op-amps or poorly fabricated silver interconnects. The way to fix this is to eliminate the sibilant component or cable from the system. You also may have a ground-loop that is getting more noisy with the new transport in the system. Try using cheater plugs to determine this.

If you get better focus, this is usually the right path, so think twice about eliminating the transport. It may be something else.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Sgordon1:

Thanks. I do have the original feet on the CD player & have not tried vibration control on the CD player (I do have footers and vibration control on my amp and pre-amp though. The shelf... is a wooden shelf set on carpet and itself has no intrinsic vibration control (though it is designed for audio equipment.. but of the cheap variety).

I am not cleaning the CDs. Do you have some suggestions in this area?

Finally no CD mat (by this you mean on top of the CD as it spins.. right? --- If so, since the Creek is a slot loader, no such mat could be accommodated). Or, are to talking a weight placed upon the CD player to eleviate vibrations.

Zd542:

You are spot on --- it is incredibly important to hear a component in your system before you buy. That said, more often than not (by a wide margin) we cannot do so. If, like me, you live over 500 miles from the nearest high-end dealer and cannot get a component "on loan" and because buying used here at Agon rarely accommodates "testing out prior to purchase," and moreover, because most dealers on the internet make you purchase w/o audition and if they do allow return they charge restocking (or give only store credit)... well we are relegated to purchasing and hoping it works out... and selling on Agon if it does not.

But i agree... hearing first is the ideal.