Newbee: Thanks!
I have a tubed pre-amp. Earlier I had a tubed Ayon CD player and the digititus then was not a problem (as much). I got rid of that unit for other reasons. I will ask others about the tube buffer.
So... a theoretical question for all... do tubes (in a pre-amp or the CD player) color and obscure the digititus that is on the disk and thereby give a smoother more listenable presentation? If so, is this an example of positive coloration? Is it an example of a less "true" yet better presentation of the recording? Finally, are tubes so often preferred because we like the coloration --- the sonic contributions they ADD to the sound? All this goes back to the contention that revealing is not always good and coloration not always bad. |
Robster, I've never tried a tube buffer and it might work. You might post a question about the experience of others. FWIW, the single biggest component change I've made in my system which helped with early digital issues was the introduction of a tubed pre amp into my system (an AR SP-10) and a tubed CDP (Cal Aria). That was a long time ago. :-) My system has changed entirely since that time and, except for my main CDP's it is now all tubes and I have no 'digital' issues. FWIW. |
for clarification, the system sounds fantastic with well recorded CDs --- better with the more revealing CD player but still excellent with the less revealing player. With CDs that have typical recording quality again the system approaches sounding excellent with either CD player (slightly better with the more expensive revealing player.. but quite close and still very, very nice sounding) The issue arises when the CD is recorded with digititus, brightness --- typical of a good subset of the CDs i like to listen to. With these CDs the revealing player sounds biting, harsh and "lets through everything." Through the less revealing player, these CDs sound much better. Seemingly, the Creek (the less revealing player) presumably "rounds off" (adds coloration?) makes more smooth the digititus and makes quite listenable these CDs. The more revealing (less colored... more neutral?) CD player renders these CDs as they are... harsh and biting. So... yes it is the nature of these recordings to be harsh. This is largely why so many prefer analog over digital --- because much redbook digital is poorly recorded.
Based on this, I assert that coloration --- a component asserting its own character --- is not always bad and that neutrality is not always the best.
Thus, for digital playback... revealing may not be that desirable. |
Since I've never experienced your "too revealing" problem and have had a ton of CD/SACD players -- from $60 Toshibas to my current $3600 Oppo/Modwright -- I have to believe the problem lies elsewhere in your system. Without knowing the components of your system, though, it's impossible even to generalize.
One thing sure, IMO: It is NOT "just the nature of the recordings." |
Are you paying attention to vibration control?
What is under your CD player?
Are the original feet still on it?
Have you tried removing them and using something else
instead? What kind of support (shelf) is it resting on?
How are you cleaning or treating a cd before playing it?
Are you using a cd mat?
If you play with these variables you might get more satisfying results... |
"01-27-15: Maplegrovemusic
lots of variables . To blame sound on one piece of equipment is not accurate ."
That's correct. Even though you changed the CD players back and forth, and left the rest of the system unaltered, other things could be going on. Components don't always match well together. If you put your revealing CD player in 10 different system the sound will vary. Most likely, it will sound very close to what you are hearing now, in some of the systems, but in other setups, it can sound very different. That's why its so important to listen to components before you buy them. |
Some of the small ensemble jazz from that era was close miked...which makes a sax,etc sound "biting" or artificially bright...Blakey 'moanin" probably my fave from golden of riches jazz period...fwiw..
24 bit edition sounds nice |
One last question or comment on the subject . If the player you are referring too was to be passed around to ten different systems do you think the same results would be heard as you did ? Are you saying you are done with the quest of detail in your digital playback ? If you want those qualities there are "variables" that can be addressed or changed to achieve that goal . |
robsker , By no means was i stating the advice given on this post as being bad . In general a lot of well intentioned advice is given in forums that does not help . If you are 100% pleased with your systems sound with a "musical cd player " then kudos . I could throw a $20 - $2000 cd player into my system and still enjoy my entire cd collection . That is what has me wondering why you experienced the unlistenable cd player . More info is always better when asking these questions. |
Adding a more revealing component to your system will expose what the other components really sound like. |
ahh... Maplegrove, only one variable was manipulated. The system, the room and the CD's remained constant and the only variable modified was changing the CD players one for another. And yes, when the sonic signature changes when only one variable is modified the change is due to that variable.
You used the term "narrow minded" incorrectly and out of context. Further, complete sentences are a nice thing in posts. Finally, I have received much very valuable advise on this board. |
lots of variables . To blame sound on one piece of equipment is not accurate . To blame recording quality because it does not sound pleasant to your ears through your system is narrow minded . Open your mind to your surroundings and go from there. Room size treatments and synergy between gear is not gelling if it is unlistenable .It can be fixed . You need the right advice . Lots of bad info on these forums . |
Is revealing always a good thing? No.
Is "colored" always a bad thing? No.
There are no absolutes in this hobby, no right or wrong, only what is right or wrong for each individual listener. I have been down the road of ultra resolution, been there, done that. I have found that balance is the key, for me, and probably most others too.
Yes, we all want resolution, but we also have to be able to listen for hours at a time too. If you are running out of the room with your ears bleeding, tone it down a notch. Some gear accentuates the bass, some gear accentuates the high's, some gear is neutral. Make your system sound enjoyable to you. Don't believe all the crap that you read.
It sounds like it's time to dump that CDP for something musical. |
Is the more expensive CD player more neutral and revealing or highlighting and exaggerating flaws? And... is it doing with (some of) the recordings and/or with the balance of your system as a whole?
While it might not matter as it stands now, it might matter going forward. |
my speakers are PBN Montana EPS2's. My pre-amp is a tubed AVA unit and my amp is a SS AVA amp. |
Just curious what speakers are currently in OP system...switching CD players is kind of band aid approach...the resolution/revealing nature of the speakers will determine the tolerance of the listener. Fwiw, creek has a great reputation...not surprising the player in as well liked. |
Newbee:
What do think of perhaps using an external tube output stage after the CD player but before the preamp? |
I tend to agree with Onhwy61.
Your problem is one often solved by simply getting a second CD player, frequently a tubed one in which you can change the tone by a simple tube substitution. You have to be very careful though because most CD players are not made to dumb down old CD's with inherent sonic limitations.
I used to have your problem and I solved it to a limited degree by having multiple players, however I really never solved my problem until I attacked my basic components, speaker selection, and ultimately room placement. Those old CD's don't have to sound as bad as they can. |
I listen to many 50's & 60's Ruby Van Gelder era Redbook CDs --- some 130 or so of them in rotation because i love that era of jazz. many of these CD's have rather tizzy, grating piano and clarinet --- much digititus. When using a 4K revealing CD player in a 20K system about 1/2 these CDs were too grating to enjoy --- and many of the rest were modestly irritating. On a Creek 1.5K CD player in the same system this darker (presumably colored) CD player rounded off the vast majority of the digititus and the CDs that were unlistenable on the revealing CD player were enjoyable on this more colored, darker player. Admittedly, with reference-level recordings the revealing player was much better. But for lesser recording --- especially redbook CDs with digititus --- a colored, less revealing CD player is much preferable.
My point, counter to Mapman is that revealing is by no means always better --- not if what is revealed is poorly recorded (albeit outstanding) music. Also, sometimes coloration --- if it masks the problems --- is a good thing.
I do not want to give up listening to great music just because of modest to poor recording quality. Revealing bad sonics is not a good thing and masking (at least some of the bad attributes) is better. |
Strictly a matter of taste and somewhat dependent on what kind of music you listen to.
I would imagine being a musician might have some bearing as well. |
Spending large sums of money to make significant parts of your music collection "unlistenable"? I can't imagine why anyone would endorse such a strategy.
If you described your system/room you might garner some practical suggestions. |
Its always good to be revealing. What actually gets revealed may not always be to ones liking. |
