Is computer audio a bust?

"My cables do a staggering 4 pico/farads per foot of capacitance, what does you cables do?"

Got that beat. My own cables are 3.8pF/foot. I agree that this makes a big difference, but so does the silver metallurgy. Just as important if not more.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Cerrot - USB stands for "universal Serial Bus". Not limited to disk drives. When are you going to give up this stupid quest? You obviously don't have a clue as to the latest technology and how good it is.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Abuck,

Plex on amazon fire tv box with toslink out to dac, $99.

You need a hdmi tv for display.

Also you can cast from mobile devices and control from there.

Plex server software is free download and mobile app is $5

Remember when CD spinners were a bust? It was not that long ago. They have gotten a LOT better just over the last 5 years. Many of them are simply computer audio inside too. These tend to sound the best has deliver the lowest jitter.

Same thing will happen with USB, and it already has for some manufacturers. Most are lagging in the performance of their designs, just like what happened with CD players. They will eventually catch-up.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Get a sound card. ESI juli@ for $149. Spdif out. All you need, plus a coax cable into your dac.

Sorry. You need a desktop for a sound card. Just noticed you have a notebook.

I actually think you are all being a bit unfair. None of you have tried anything other than the USB. And you're knocking me. Unreal. I'm not asking anyone to trash anything and there can be no other analogy. I'm saying, rather than something "universal", why not try something specifically for audio?

"Is computer Audio a Bust?"

Is this a serious question?? If so, the one asking is grossly uninformed and/or naive. Computer audio, when properly executed, is well established as a superior source compared to anything but a mega $$ CDP. Well done vinyl is still the best, but requires far more investment and involvement. The convenience of computer audio is inarguable. Done well, it is fantastic.

I have owned 5 different DAC's over the last 10 years, and still own 3 of them, the best one still in use in my 2nd system. My main system is served by a Lumin A-1 music server with NAS, instead of choosing vinyl much of the time!

Rather than a bust, computer audio IS the way of the future!

I should add that the PC or Mac/DAC combo introduces variables that can result in inferior SQ. The Lumin eliminates these variable by combining the computer and the DAC in one housing, with the power supply in another, thereby eliminating the USB or other interface and clocking problems. The designer has total control of the results.

That is funny steve, that measurement is really the same, However, the rest of your cable has nowhere near the technology and sound of the cable I am talking about, If you do not believe me, research all that you can about the Tara Labs Zero Gold with HFX grounding station and get back to me, likly, your tone will change with inverasment!

I will also add, If your cable was as profound as you believe, you would be profoundly Rich!, there would be no need to do digital audio again, you would be surely in the cable bussiness, you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to a cable of the caliber of the Tara Labs Zero Gold with HFX grounding station, you have told me before, you never have heard of it or listened to it, in turn, I will take your post as a grain of salt!

There is more, The new two top level Tara labs interconnects, The Evolution Zero does 2 1/2 pico/farods per-foot, and the other Evolution Granmaster does 2 pico/farods a foot of capacitance, yes, I am going to the Evolution Zero, I am only mentioning this because of a comment on measurements, in the end, the measurements are interesting, However, the sound is the end game!

For everyone's reference, Lumin is at:

http://www.luminmusic.com/index.html

I did not find US prices on the site, but according to Mike Bovaird's review on Audioshark.org, the Lumin digital streaming player price in the USA is $7200.

G.

08-07-14: Bcgator
We've had this discussion with him in another thread, explaining that I'm getting great audio quality over USB, and to him this is all a fig newton of my imagination. He doesn't care if aliens from 5000 years into the future show up with some nanoo-nanoo technology that makes USB sound like angels caroling in your ears - he'll tell the aliens the same thing, "you aliens need to use SPDIF". The fact that, just for example, the Oppo BDP-105 (which I don't own, but may buy for a 2nd system) is getting rave upon rave reviews, including for its sound quality over USB (it has XMOS chip + asynch USB), has no bearing in Cerrot's thinking. To him, all those reviews are a USB conspiracy, not unlike the Loch Ness conspiracy. The ONLY thing USB should be used for, other than computer mice, is to put some marinara sauce on top and to be enjoyed with a nice Chianti.

You get a gold star for using creative writing to rant....

BTW, while back in MN for a wedding, I heard a top dollar system fronted by Magico S5s that had as its digital source an Exemplar Audio modded Oppo 105. I brought a USB flash drive of music to use as test tracks, plugged it in, and it gave the Brinkmann turntable a run for its money. So yes, its a matter of IMPLEMENTATION.

That aside, my system is without a dedicated digital transport at present, and I succumbed to using an unmodded Mini with a Belkin USB cable, and it sounded liked rat piss. I understand why the naysayers nay....

08-09-14: Cerrot
Get a sound card. ESI juli@ for $149. Spdif out. All you need, plus a coax cable into your dac.

That is an option, and one that the Alpha Berkley crowd runs with....

08-09-14: Twb2
"Is computer Audio a Bust?"

Is this a serious question?? If so, the one asking is grossly uninformed and/or naive.

No, just a rhetorical question to stimulate discussion. As you can see, some people do actually feel that way, and its still a valid opinion...

08-09-14: Twb2
I should add that the PC or Mac/DAC combo introduces variables that can result in inferior SQ. The Lumin eliminates these variable by combining the computer and the DAC in one housing, with the power supply in another, thereby eliminating the USB or other interface and clocking problems. The designer has total control of the results.

Indeed. I actually looked at one. It does however take away some of your own control over SQ. I would rather have a dedicated digital transport and a DAC of my choosing....

If you do not believe me, research all that you can about the Tara Labs Zero Gold with HFX grounding station and get back to me, likly, your tone will change with inverasment!

Grounding does indeed make a difference. I have some of Mosaic Audio's (aka Dale Pitcher from Intuitive Design and Essence) reference cables and they have a grounding element as well. Tripoint audio has opened a lot of eyeballs in reference to grounding. It think it is particularly efficacious in regards to digital. That and power filtering whether it be batteries or a dedicated conditioner....

Agear, mmmm, that was some enjoyable posts, I can learn from you,I am being honest here, education is always the answer to all questions, what I learn, I may be able to share with others in this hobby, Would be nice to be an asset to many others in our hobby of extreme audio, thankyou, happy listening

labyrinth, your mad ramblings about Tara Labs would be better received in Asia. Spend some time on the Audioexotics site and you will see. That audio community always seems to be chasing the lunatic fringe (where cost is no object). Sadly, we in the US have become coupon cutters and deal seekers. Its just where the economy is. They are going up and we are going down.

Agear, come on, I know better than that, I know many audiophiles that do not talk on the audiogon forums because they do not want to be bashed for what they own, I was warned about talking about some of my equipment, Agear, I'm a guppie compaired to some people I talk to with super systems right here in the u.s.a., and I know you are kidding anyway, cheers.

Another way to ask the central question of the thread is "what takes computer audio over the top as a source"? What single tweak relegated your turntable to the sidelines?

In recent months, I have had several audio acquaintances return to CDPs claiming improved SQ versus their highly optimized computer transports (SS drives, external power supplies, etc, etc).

Agear --

My findings are the complete opposite, and can summarized in the following (by another author):

Ever since I mastered my first CD back in 1983 and compared what came back from the replication plants with the masters used to make those CDs, I’ve found that CDs from different plants (sometimes different lines within the same plant) all sound different from each other and none sounds indistinguishable from the master used to create it. This is true regardless of the CD player or transport used, regardless of price or design. To my ears, comparing playback from disc with playback of the master used to create said disc, there are always losses of focus and fine detail, sometimes subtle, other times not so subtle at all.

Interestingly, when those same CDs are ripped to computer as raw PCM files and then compared with the masters, all the differences go away. In other words, with playback of these files via a good server, for the first time in my experience, the user can have the sound of the CD master at home. So, the convenience of a music server not only does not exact a sonic price, the results actually sound better than playback from a disc player or transport. (It might not beat good vinyl playback in some ways but that is a subject for another day. And besides, what I’ve outlined above is only the beginning. Read on.)

...

https://soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com/2014/02/23/listening-to-tomorrow/

Agear, I have continually wondered about the fundamental question in this thread, which frankly I think is absurd. Now with your new restatement, I can comment more.

Does computer audio that digital over the top relative to vinyl something for which I have an opinion. No! I still greatly prefer vinyl, except for its great inconvenience. I was moving to prepare to put many of my 45 rpm reissues on the hard drive in double DSD, but have stopped as I suspect that I may get them that way directly off master tapes, although SONY is using a device that has many opamps which really are terrible.

Presently, I'm using a Mac Mini running JRiver MC19 out via USB to my dac that can play double DSD. USB and Firewire are the only outputs I have. With JRiver MC19, I can play cds in 44.1/16 on up to double DSD and the differences are striking.

I am told by a friend that single native DSD sounds better than double DSD but I'm not at all convinced that this is true. But double DSD through USB asynchronous is the best digital I've ever heard. High resolution is the wave of the future and I suspect there is no way to get such high definition is other than through downloads off the internet.

"what takes computer audio over the top as a source"

Now that's a more reasonable qustion for sure.

As a source to an existing home stereo system:

CD res or higher lossless files -> Music server->network connection-> network player->good DAC of your choice.

As a source for headphone listening where demand for amplification is much less, player software designed for good sound (I use PLEX) on a computer with just a decent built in DAC to just any decent pair of headphones. Even listening at work via internet connection to my music server at home, using headphone analog out, the sound is over the top in that I enjoy listening for extended periods.

Mapman, that would hardly be "over the top" for me. I guess it is better than MP3.

Remember when CD spinners were a bust? It was not that long ago. They have gotten a LOT better just over the last 5 years. Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Audioengr

Name some, always curious about the better sounding cd players.

Foster_9, I was curious about that also, but I do think the BMC transport and the Oppo drives plus the Esoteric drives are also good; no where near the cds ripped to hard drives, however.

My turntable started to be mostly relegated to the sidelines when I started using old Roku Soundbridge to my current DACs a few years back prior to moving to Squeezebox. Now with nothing new happening with Squeezebox, I am forging ahead for now with PLEX.

I still have two Roku Soundbridge devices around in original packaging that I do not use anymore. Sound quality of those even was top notch into my preferred DACs, very much like Squeezebox. ANyone interested in testing the waters on the cheap with those let me know. They and one of my two Squeezebox Touch devices are sitting unused today. They connect to built in Windows MEdia player on Windows (that is what I used them with mostly) and most other standards compliant music servers for .wav files.

Agear --

My findings are the complete opposite, and can summarized in the following (by another author):

Ever since I mastered my first CD back in 1983 and compared what came back from the replication plants with the masters used to make those CDs, I’ve found that CDs from different plants (sometimes different lines within the same plant) all sound different from each other and none sounds indistinguishable from the master used to create it. This is true regardless of the CD player or transport used, regardless of price or design. To my ears, comparing playback from disc with playback of the master used to create said disc, there are always losses of focus and fine detail, sometimes subtle, other times not so subtle at all.

Interestingly, when those same CDs are ripped to computer as raw PCM files and then compared with the masters, all the differences go away. In other words, with playback of these files via a good server, for the first time in my experience, the user can have the sound of the CD master at home. So, the convenience of a music server not only does not exact a sonic price, the results actually sound better than playback from a disc player or transport. (It might not beat good vinyl playback in some ways but that is a subject for another day. And besides, what I’ve outlined above is only the beginning. Read on.)

...

https://soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com/2014/02/23/listening-to-tomorrow/

I have dialogued with Barry D. online. Good man and very knowledgable. He has a unique frame of reference that we don't have though with access to said masters, but I think burning a CD and then spitting out the master is obviously a little optimistic.

08-21-14: Tbg
Agear, I have continually wondered about the fundamental question in this thread, which frankly I think is absurd. Now with your new restatement, I can comment more.

Tbg, I find you are spending more and more in the irritable professor mode as of late (going off on brain dead cyber students). :) My Dad was a prof and I come from a long line of profs so I am VERY familiar with said behavior.

As I have stated before, the question is a rhetorical device or quasi-Socractic in nature to generate discussion. Taken literally, yes, the question is absurd.

08-22-14: Mapman
My turntable started to be mostly relegated to the sidelines when I started using old Roku Soundbridge to my current DACs a few years back prior to moving to Squeezebox. Now with nothing new happening with Squeezebox, I am forging ahead for now with PLEX.

That has been my paradigm since 06. It does help he enduser bypass the computer silliness and the inherent Brownian motion of faux programing with nominal changes in SQ that would fail any good A+B test. I just got an Aries, and so far, so good.

Agear, several truths drive me to my basic indifference to this thread. One, using a music server is far more convenient than playing cds or sacds. Two data that is repeatedly read off the optical drive and then replayed off that drive is more accurate than those read by a universal player's optical drive. Three, high definition copies are superior to low definition drives. There is more information and the digital filters apply at much higher frequencies. Four true DSD information goes through a different portion of the Sabre chip and sounds superior to PCM. Five, I think the old adage that bits are bits is ridiculous. Cabling has a major impact on what bits are received as does the accuracy of the clocks involved.

Finally, this thread is not different from any others–there is never any consensus. Matt has satisfied his interests and had the good fortune to hear many units in his own room. Most of us don't even have a dealer where they might even hear one player. I was curious enough to see how this played out, but quickly lost interest as the logistics grew more complicated.

I will just go back to listening to well ripped cds played back in double DSD, as well as many sacds in DSD on my hard drive. I'm sure that you too were unaffected by this thread and will continue to enjoy your system. Good luck.

Finally, this thread is not different from any others–there is never any consensus.

I think that is the beauty of this forum. Differing opinions are what drives everything here. I read them all, try a few, throw out most or them and form my own opinions. Audio is no different than automotive in that vein....there are fifty ways to get from 0-60 mph. We all choose our own route.
.

Agear, Congrats on the Aries!,Happy listening.

Hi Agear,
Have the Aries and Lampizator level 7 met or exceeded your lofty expectations? A DHT(EML 45 tube) DAC is very interesting.Congratulations.
Charles,

08-24-14: Tbg

....this thread is not different from any others–there is never any consensus.

and

08-24-14: Mitch4t
Finally, this thread is not different from any others–there is never any consensus.
I think that is the beauty of this forum. Differing opinions are what drives everything here. I read them all, try a few, throw out most or them and form my own opinions. Audio is no different than automotive in that vein....there are fifty ways to get from 0-60 mph. We all choose our own route.

Its just information Tbg that can be used or not used at Mitch stated. As I have said before, Audiophiles are fickle creatures like cats, and you cannot predict or explain their choices. That being said, we are all unique creations, and cannot or should not be ground into some homogenous, fascist consensus.

08-24-14: Charles1dad
Hi Agear,
Have the Aries and Lampizator level 7 met or exceeded your lofty expectations? A DHT(EML 45 tube) DAC is very interesting.Congratulations.

above average....;)

08-31-14: Jesusa0
Matt,

I celebrate you´re going to try the DACs with a superior transport (Esoteric). My experience taught me that my Esoteric UX-1 plus the Yamamoto YDA-01 DAC beat, by a large margin, a MacBook Pro plus the same Yamamoto. Conclusion: I quit computer audio.

My SPDIF cable is an Antipodes Audio Kokiri.

Regards,

Daniel

Yet again on another thread. So, is unmodded computer audio a bust?

Hello Agear,

As you quoted me from another thread, I think I have to be accurate.

My computer had some enhancements such as:

1.- External USB power supply (a noticeable sonic improvement);

2.- USB to SPDIF converter. To my ears better resolution than connecting USB straight to DAC.

3.- External hard drive;

4.- 24/88 files;

Even though those enhancements, I preferred the sound coming from the Esoteric UX-1 playing 16/44 redbook CDs (of course, the Yamamoto YDA-01 DAC is a must).

Regards,

Daniel

Jesusa0,
A good friend has brought several well regarded players/DACs to my home and so far he always prefers the Yamamoto YDA in the end. It very much flies under the radar.

Charles1dad, I just read the 6Moons review. Wow! I didn't have time to note what chip is in it, but I would love to hear it.

Hi Tbg,
I believe it uses the TI(Burr Brown) 1794. The key to its sucess IMO is the ultra simple discrete analog circuit(Yamamoto avoids Op amp/NFB at all cost he says). Minimal use of filters and his emphasis on power supply and heavy duty transformer. He placed attention on implementing a very minimalist design which he feels yields a natural sound quality. It's exceptionally organic and lively.
Charles,

Charles1dad, while I like avoiding Op amps and his other emphases, I need the Sabre chip for my music server and it double DSD.

Thanks for the information.

Tbg,
I understand. My belief is what ever it takes to sound good for "you". Its just become that simple for me.
Charles,

I'll say it again.....computer audio is how 99.9999 percent of all music is recorded.....mixed and mastered today. Playing back files on your computer has the potential to be as close to the final mix as possible....for the good or bad of it. People are so hung up on usb....well, today's usb sounds as good as last year's firewire thanks in part to asynchronous. So much so that I no longer use firewire to playback tracks for mixing. Anyway....If you don't like usb buy a mytek with a firewire port.

Again.....listening to a hard drive is how recording engineers mix. After sending out for cd pressing, the cd wi be compared to the two track file from a hard drive to ensure a proper pressing.

Also....I for one am glad that disc drives have been pushed to the back of the bus. Do you know how many laser problems occur with dvd drives. It is a crap shoot to even invest in a top player due to the short life laser problems. And....hard drives are so cheap that backing up your files in incredibly easy and fast.

"disk drives have been pushed to the back of the bus"
That's news to me.
Charles,

Jesusa0,
What USB dac did you use for your comparison? The only Yamamoto dac you list is a YDA 1. As far as I can tell this is not a USB dac. Also it is from 2008 or so. There is a new dac from Yamamoto, a YTA 2 dac. This is a USB dac. It is a brand new model according to their web site. You state and I quote, "2.- USB to SPDIF converter. To my ears better resolution than connecting USB straight to DAC". So I ask what USB dac have you used to determine this opinion?

Cd players aren't big sellers these days. They are way down compared to its hey day.

Hi charles1dad, I have foremost been a Texas-instruments-Burr Brown Dac chip fan!, I owned many, the 1704 was good, The 1796 that I have now is the most liked for my system, the 1794 I did not know about, looks to be the next endeavor I get in a next player for sure, I find Burr brown chips to be less fatigueing, and all about musicality, I just researched this 1794 chip, I can see why the best names in digital are tring it out with there units, go ahead and read all about the 1794, what it does with the componet it's self, other than the useual tech info that all other dac chips are concerned with, is incredible!