Intriguing inquiry, are floor-stand speakers always better than active speakers?

@holmz   LMAO , thanks for that one 

@phusis

Good discussion. There are many approaches to high end audio. Typically they reflect a persons personality. Often idealistic vs pragmatic. One of the reasons I take a fairly conservative approach here is there are a lot of folks that are fairly new to the pursuit. Many do not know what a complex and multifaceted pursuit it is. Contradictory recommendations are the norm.  It is somewhat like investing. Until you have a lot of experience under your belt and know what you are doing you should not take on more complex, higher risk avenues. This is why I am a strong supporter of more main stream solutions. I completely support going digital only if you are just starting. Not trying to discourage exploring, but want as many as possible to be as successful as possible in this pursuit.

@ghdprentice --

"Yes, as in all things there are advantages and disadvantages in different system designs. It is great to discuss different approaches to system design. Most audiophiles are very cautious when trying a new paradigm. I have never had the money I needed to buy the equipment I wanted, and haven’t had the money to cover a step in the wrong direction.

Professionally I spent decades choosing new technology for global corporations… decisions each of millions of dollars, and sometimes upon which the very continued existence of the corporation would depend. I am very good at it, ideas that sound good and follow a new path are easy to find, unfortunately many are dead ends. I am not saying active is a dead end… but at this point in high end audio it is not the low risk proposition. Great possibility for one and done, cutting end types, well healed. But, for me, I would kick the tires a lot before heading down this path, as rosy as it is conceptually."

A glance at your great looking and no doubt very capable main system (one of three, no less) puts the cost of all well in excess of $100k, so I hope you’ve come closer to realizing your sonic dreams.

Exploring home audio reproduction avenues and where to possibly settle here takes a good dose of trial and error and open mindedness to follow an intuition, which in turn may invite risk and finding oneself sometimes in uncharted territory. Fortunately risk taking in home audio reproduction doesn’t call for considering the survival of global corporations, so it’s a "free" playground to gain some experience that should invite exploration rather than being, perhaps, as you pointed to: (overly) cautious.

One of the good things with risk taking and exploration - which needn’t cost a lot of dough, I might add, nor be devoid of careful analysis - is that principles, areas and segments of audio reproduction one may have more or less (un)consciously deemed unsuitable for domestic use, are suddenly "unveiled" to prove the contrary scenario. This is quite an uplifting and freeing discovery, and moreover sheds some light on audiophilia being very much a monetary affair rather than one primarily invested in the physics of audio - wherever that may lead.

A few years back I took a chance with a pair of used pro cinema speakers (augmented by a pair of my existing horn subs) at a very fair price, thinking they’d be an interesting and not too expensive experiment into accommodating more readily some physical properties in audio reproduction, while also trying out a fully active-as-separate-components configuration. They were later fitted with a (much) bigger horn variant intended for setups in large cinema auditoriums, something I initially deemed too bonkers for a home setting, but it turned out so successfully, also with dialing in filter settings and doing measurements that it’s now a permanent part to my setup.

Is it close to perfection? Of course not (what is?), but you know that giddy feeling of sitting in front of your stereo - not really intending for it to be a listening session - and it spontaneously dawns on you that what you’re hearing is just downright awesome? No genre of music is left by the wayside, what is being fed is served, no restrictions to size and scale of presentation, dynamics galore, totally effortless overall reproduction and honest 20-25Hz extension at ANY volume, prodigious resolution and insight. Conceptually few audiophiles would have given this a chance, but that’s where risk taking becomes your friend.

Active is far from a dead end. To see state of the art sound reproduction look no further than active speakers. The newest most interesting designs are from companies like Kii, Dutch and Dutch,  Genelec, Mesanovic who's known for microphones, Ex Machina, Adam, Sigberg, GGNTKT, and on and on. They might not all make it but they are the companies pushing the envelope. 

@phusis 

Yes, as in all things there are advantages and disadvantages in different system designs. It is great to discuss different approaches to system design. Most audiophiles are very cautious when trying a new paradigm. I have never had the money I needed to buy the equipment I wanted, and haven’t had the money to cover a step in the wrong direction.

Professionally I spent decades choosing new technology for global corporations… decisions each of millions of dollars, and sometimes upon which the very continued existence of the corporation would depend. I am very good at it, ideas that sound good and follow a new path are easy to find, unfortunately many are dead ends. I am not saying active is a dead end… but at this point in high end audio it is not the low risk proposition. Great possibility for one and done,  cutting end types, well healed. But, for me, I would kick the tires a lot before heading down this path, as rosy as it is conceptually. 

@ghdprentice --

"There is an economic aspect of active speakers that has a big impact on the market. In general, creating the best system possible at say $25K, $50K, or $200K… typically speakers would be the most expensive investment. You start adding more functions to speakers like amplification, then they get even more expensive. Most audiophiles are not rich enough to just plunk down 50% of there final investment or more in speakers. But they work over time to get there. There is an economic advantage in being able to get the best speakers at any given time and upgrade the amp and other aspects as money becomes available.

So, for the time being this is a real headwind for companies creating active speakers. Less competition, higher cost… smaller niche… I can’t see anything changing this soon."

It’s not an apples to apples comparison factoring in all components here, and the accumulated price this leads to. Part of the advantage with an active design is that both amps and drivers will be given better conditions to work from with the omission of a passive cross-over. I’ve heard excellent active setups with amps so cheap you’d normally never associate with sound that good, and this also points to how amps matter less with active setups. An important reason why amps sound relatively different in passive constellations is to which degree they’re impervious to load, but with the negation of an often complex passive cross-over and amp-to-driver direct coupling the swings in amp performance are somewhat ameliorated, meaning cheaper amps can sound great here and the more expensive alternatives offer less of an uptick in performance - or at least one may not deem it worthwhile in light of the SQ level with cheaper amps. To boot the driver cones are better handled now that the dedicated amps sees them directly, often resulting in less smear and a more transiently clean and resolved sound.

What most don’t seem to realize, still, is that an active design isn’t defined by it being a bundled all-in-one speaker package with amps and all. Active means the filtering is done prior to amplification on signal level, not on the output side of the amp between that and the drivers as a passive network. Naturally an active design can be one where the amps, electronic cross-over/DSP and DAC(s) can be situated as separate components and externally to the speakers - a designer could fully opt for this with preset filter values and recommended components, if he wanted to! Most don’t, however, but that doesn’t mean such a solution can’t be pursued as a DIY approach where one can choose whatever separate components one prefers. Yes, you would have to do filter settings yourself, but why not take tweaking and customization to the next level?

Think about the freedom one is afforded once you get accustomed to handling filter setting by yourself; sitting in your listening position with your laptop or tablet you can make filter setting changes on the fly both getting to learn and further optimize the sound to where you want it to go. You can tailor your system to sound more to your specific liking and acoustics with an extra set of important tools here that you otherwise wouldn’t be able to with passive speakers, and this doesn’t exclude being able to choose every single piece of component in the chain, should you want to. I’m using a Class-A amp for the midrange (~600Hz) on up and Class-D variants for the range below that; quality of wattage where it matters most, and sheer brute force where it’s mostly in demand.

Active configuration as a solution of separates holds the possibility of having your cake and eat it too, it’s just a matter of having an open mind and knowing of that possibility, wanting to explore it, and get on with it.

Clearthinker, again you are not thinking clearly. ATC speakers use class A/B amps, not class D.

Personally I prefer separates and I don't like to idea of being stuck with a speaker manufacturer's choice of amplifier.

I don't like the idea of being stuck with a manufacturer's choice of passive crossover, with the many feet of lossy wire (air core inductors) and a whole bunch of electronic parts that have "a sound" now stuck forever between my amps and the drivers where the sound begins.  With active, I can get the crossover part done BEFORE the amps at line level without any loss and I can control driver phase to get a phase linear system, and I can get rid of the biggest lossy thing in the entire system, the speaker cable.   Just sayin....

This isn't controversial is it?

Brad

I suppose I can, but like each device can perform to its best separately I guess, hahah,

If ^that^ was true, then I would have suspected that you would have passive speaker and power amp?

PS Audio is real mellow, and Silent Angel Munich M1T is a new Roon Ready streamer, so I thought it wouldn't hurt to give it a try, turned out it was't bad at ball 😂

What did you try? Without it all or with it?

If the KEF accepted the streaming, then you would remove the need for a DAC and then the ADC inside the KEF.
Whether it sounds better, the same or worse remains to be seen.

Usually less stuff in the path can be better.

There is an economic aspect of active speakers that has a big impact on the market. In general, creating the best system possible at say $25K, $50K, or $200K… typically speakers would be the most expensive investment. You start adding more functions to speakers like amplification, then they get even more expensive. Most audiophiles are not rich enough to just plunk down 50% of there final investment or more in speakers. But they work over time to get there. There is an economic advantage in being able to get the best speakers at any given time and upgrade the amp and other aspects as money becomes available.

So, for the time being this is a real headwind for companies creating active speakers. Less competition, higher cost… smaller niche… I can’t see anything changing this soon.

@holmz 

I suppose I can, but like each device can perform to its best separately I guess, hahah, PS Audio is real mellow, and Silent Angel Munich M1T is a new Roon Ready streamer, so I thought it wouldn't hurt to give it a try, turned out it was't bad at ball 😂

one day, they built the best floor standing speaker you have ever heard. 

The next day, someone built an active speaker that was better then the best floor standing speaker

The following day....

Good discussion folks. I like a thread that makes me smarter by providing me with more information than I started with. Thanks. 

This question thread is related to the room dimension and the way the room will be acoustically controlled or not....And ESPECIALLY here of the quality of amplification like said my friend above: high quality class D will do the job...

Es^pecially if the room is controlled for these speakers response...Vibrations controls is especially important for sure....

I can try and fill MC’s role if you like?

@holmz - you just be you mate. Oh my word.
And you could use the valve springs if you had the correct mass loading for them to achieve <4Hz isolation. If you haven’t tried good isolation on your speakers, you should try it. And you're kinda crossing into territory of the great Geoff Kait, not seen in here of late.

How’s that for controversial?
Again, I think GaN Fet class D modules in an active speaker could be a game changer.

Focal uses class g and ab amps in some of their active speakers. ATC uses ab amps. 

The only difference is where you put the amp.  For active the signal from source to speaker is line level all the way (except for vinyl).  For passive you take the amp out of the speaker and put it somewhere else, running an output level cable between.

Oh, and the amp of course.  Generally there isn't a whole lot of space inside a speaker and the amp needs to be cooled.  So you can't put a big valve amp in a speaker.  You also can't have Class A or probably Class AB as there would be too much heat.  So you are left with Class D - small size and little heat.

If you like Class D, that's fine.   If not.....

My current setup is a Silent Angel Rhein Z1 which runs a Roon Core, then Munich M1T as a Roon Ready streamer, then to PS Audio DAC, then KEF active speaker, which the streaming is all based on Roon I'd say, the SQ ain't bad at all, I'm quite content.

But just not sure if applying passive speakers with separated Amps would be so much better, cuz I know for sure that'd cost my wallet so much more

Do you need the PS Audio DAC, and the Munich M1T?
Can you just do all that in the KEF?

I do miss millercarbon’s input.

Personally I prefer separates and I don’t like to idea of being stuck with a speaker manufacturer’s choice of amplifier.

I can try and fill MC’s role if you like?

@preston8452 you might consider Moab Tectonix, on a bunch of valve springs from a 6 liter LS1 engine, and power it all using a Raven amplifier, with the speaker cable held in the air with wooden trestles…

~Da def MC

Here is a review with some pictures of the Cabasse Pearl Akoya, the middle in the line.

I don't think one type is better than the other, there are good and less god implementations of both types. I recently heard the Cabasse Pearl line and the middle in the range costs around $4k, is active like the rest and uses class D amps inside. They don't need a dac, just add a streamer. 

They are round, like fotballs (the soccer variant) and sounded good. I will not exchange my current setup in the similar price range but others might find them perfect. Bass and dynamics was impressive. 

I also got to listen to the top of the line syste  costing around $30k, a big jump up. They sounded amazing, voices were very clear and nicely positioned in 3d. Dynamics was just fantastic, I almost jumped out of the couch when the first real drum note was struck. I still can't say if I would buy this system rather then separates for the same price but I don't think it was an easy decision anymore. Active speakers with class d amps have improved. 

@rixthetrick 

Haha that sounds indeed fantastic, the only to find out is to give it a try haha, maybe you can contact their local distributor and ask if they can lend u an unit to do some comparisons or something.

@preston8452 - yeah I’d read that about it being available for the Raspberry Pi.

It’s just that my hardware is possibly better than the Silent Angel hardware, and I have already got it.

8Watt Intel dual core commercial integrated CPU on mainboard, Jcat Femto USB card, HD Plex 200Watt linear power supply (separate runs for mainboard, SSDs, and USB card), Fanless case with copper heat pipes. Now I don’t know which is better, obviously, I haven’t heard it. But the OS, man that’s got me fully interested.

I do miss millercarbon's input.

Personally I prefer separates and I don't like to idea of being stuck with a speaker manufacturer's choice of amplifier.

@spenav it appears like you follow Erin’s work.

The point I was trying to make was that the Kii is indeed a top contender as is the Genelec. Those two are active.

And also on Erin’s site was a passive example.

So all three are in a multi-way tie for first place.
Which sort of means that one can achieve something nice, any way they choose to go, in that cost range of ~4-8 k$.

I do not see active getting a whole lot cheaper on the higher end.
There will undoubtedly be cheaper offerings, using cheaper drivers, and other corners cut… That will make the economy side have a better SQ, but they will be lacking SQ wise compared to the Kii and Genelec offerings.

As was pointed out, it's a moot sonic argument. Both can have stellar measurements and superior sound. The Op I think however was getting at cost/benefit analysis. Interestingly, in the 100 year history of stereo, in 2022 we may be witnessing the time when the cost verses sonic quality paradigm is rapidly shifting. It might not be there yet, but the graph surely is converging and the writing is on the wall. 

Quested Active Speakers used by Abbey Road Studio and countless others in Asia and EU.

Honestly speaking these are the only Active Studio speakers i would put into my Music Rooms. Fatique Free smooth delivery Transparent as any other Audiophile speakers 10 times its price, one of the most underrated speakers in the Pro and audiophile industry.

@ghdprentice 

Keep in mind, the amps in these good and some of them (KII3) great active speakers are NOT low cost class D amps. These amps are actually quite good. They are designed an optimized for one specific driver and no cable between the amp and the speakers. I used AGD class D amps in my system and I can assure you they are very capable. 
 

@holmz 

I consider the KII3 to be great. Not sure why the post with the FR was deleted. 

preston - If you haven't heard of floor standing active speakers you haven't lived! I've had fully active floor standing speakers since 1976. Good luck.

Ok, “in general”.

@rixthetrick 

Yeah, you can get a RPi4 and install VitOS on it to run!

@audioman58 

I would say 100% of the time a QUALITY separate amplifier is of much higher quality than a LOW COST class D amp in an active speaker

I am not 100% sure I agree.
It is also difficult to argue a tautological argument when a “quality amp” if quality, and it the 100% fails, then it was because that amp was not quality,

Then take a Genelec or a Kii, and is that amp inside running through a crossover? Or it is it two amps?
Where they also omitted a bunch of passive parts like coils and caps?

@holmz 

Didn’t quite get the last point, sorry. Frequency response is not the whole story, I hope you would agree. Also, because THIS floor stander has a better frequency response than THAT floor stander is not a reason to judge an entire design model inferior to another

I thought your reference to Kii meant that you considered their speakers as being good and worthwhile to have, and an example where it was worthwhile.

However you (or someone else) seems to have removed that post and the pilots.

Yes for 99% of the time a quality separate amplifier is of much higher quality

then a low cost class d amp in a active speaker

I wonder how long it's going to be until we start to see GaN Class D in active self amplified speakers? GaN is surprisingly good already. I have heard the LSA Voyager GaN 350, I must agree that it's good, for the money it's very good.

As DAC chips get better and GaN amps also become more refined, the playing field may start to change goal posts, who know?

OP - I wish I could run VitOS on my music server to compare with what I have, I wouldn't be surprised if it bested what I currently have. WinServer 2012 R2 in core mode with Audio Optimizer, Fidelizer Pro with Foobar 2000. (I haven't nutted out how to get my Jplay Femto going yet).

@audioman58 

I would say 100% of the time a QUALITY separate amplifier is of much higher quality than a LOW COST class D amp in an active speaker. 

@rixthetrick  

It's very nice tho, the operation is smooth, and yeah the Rhein Z1 is controlled by VitOS Manager, it got several popular streaming services integrated. 

As for it's performance, I'd say it's great to run as a Roon Core though, just using it as a digital turntable to process the music data, then to Munich M1T. 

@larsman

Yeah I noticed that... didn't mean to ruffle any feathers pal... 

Yes for 99% of the time a quality separate amplifier is of much higher quality

then a low cost class d amp in a active speaker.

@holmz 

Didn’t quite get the last point, sorry. Frequency response is not the whole story, I hope you would agree. Also, because THIS floor stander has a better frequency response than THAT floor stander is not a reason to judge an entire design model inferior to another. 

@spenav how about Erin’s Sointuva plot.
That is better than the Kii and it is passive.

It is like asking if the Porsche or Audi are better… from the vantage point of an Amish horse-n-carriage.

@ghdprentice 

That said high quality floor standing speakers out perform active ones at this time.

The folks at KII Audio would take offense in that statement 😊. I would have to agree with them. 

@phusis +1

If your room is large enough for a  powered floor stander.

Chucky Chucky Chucky …

@preston8452 - I just did a little reading on the Silent Angel Rhein Z1.
How are you liking VitOS and the VitOS Manager? What are you using to control your Rhein Z1?

 

'Always' is always a tricky term to use when asking a question like this....