My electrician retired and recommended a Master Electrician who works on nuclear submarine panels in nearby Bath Iron Works, Maine. Not an audiophile, nonetheless, he was genuinely curious and responsive to my concerns regarding isolation and purity. He chose to distance and isolate my sound studio best he could in and from the electrical panel. I use Furutech connectors, outlet and covers in vital areas. My outboard dac lives on a separate outlet from the rest of the rig.
Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata is quite open about his designs and pollution CREATED within our audio boxes...quite interesting. I'm not a tech, but we do tend to lose sight that we create full circuits to and FROM our gear, as Gabriel succinctly addresses. Valuable. Okay, More Peace Pin |
ronket, yes, the generator is a way of eliminating the ac altogether. As far as line conditioners, Akiko makes the Corelli and a smaller version which are both passive. I do not own the Corelli but have used their tuning sticks with good results.
But if I were in need of cleaning up my power, I would opt to plug a line conditioner such as the Corelli, into a generator that runs on a rechargeable battery. The battery would of course need recharging in between listening times. Which generator however, I am not sure. Those which are made specifically for high end audio have a steeper price tag than those which are not and I’m not certain whether or not there’s a noticeable difference between them.
In my current circumstance, I don’t have a lot of confidence in getting noticeable results from running a dedicated 20 amp line. I’m still reliant on my neighborhood transformer so while I may be able to bypass sharing the ac with my personal microwave and refrigerator, I’m still getting dirty ac from the neighborhood. |
I do not have a lot to add to this conversation but would like to make two comments:
1. i have been using PS power plants for years and they have always been able to take my system up quite a bit in SQ. I am using their P20 right now and consider it indispensable to my system. is there better out there? I have not tried any others so i l cannot make a blanket statement that it is the best.
2. please review the last few issues of Stereophile, and read the 2 articles by Michael Fremer about what happened to his sound when he had a whole house generator added so that he would have back up power in case of a power outage. This is something i had never considered but if i ever do get a whole house generator, i will have to have another panel installed. He wants to have them add another panel but for right now, PS Audio and their power plants saved his butt big time.
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lowrider, Sorry, I didn’t realize he’d already past. May he remain in our blessed memories. |
@goofyfoot
His presence is missed by everyone.
Many thanks to david_ten for including the Audiogon community in this tragic loss. |
lowrider, I’m sorry to hear about Al’s faltering health. |
Since an electrician is about have him check out the buildings bonding of communication equipment. Old apartment buildings are rarely code compliant with code section 250.94. I live in an older apartment building as well that had horrible ground loops. Here is a couple of videos you can review with the electrician. They will understand the technical requirements. https://youtu.be/a5zAVo2bvJ8https://youtu.be/NaYJfXmVChQ |
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@dkidknow
With the size of your room I believe the kanta 3 would also be a good option. We are enjoying our 3s in a similar sized room. Happy listening ! |
A quick tangent, but
+1 to lowrider57:Thanks to the late great Almarg.
I've been away from here for some time, and hadn't heard about Al, and just discovered the news of his passing.I wrote this with tears in my eyes: I never met Al, and I was able to understand only a fraction of what he wrote, but I always marveled at his smarts, generosity and grace.
There seems to be a lot of concern about conduct/misconduct on Audiogon these days: good to remember the the shining example Al set.My speakers are the same ones Al championed for many years; I'll play something for him tonite. |
I believe ASR has acquired one of these regeneration devices and has it in the queue for testing. |
@yogiboy @djones51
Thank you for the reference to that thread. Hearing the argument that "P.S. Audio claims they are perfect and why do you believe them?" wasn’t providing the technical details I repeatedly asked for. So I appreciate YOU reading and hearing my question -- and directing me toward an answer.
For others following this thread wanting actual knowledge, here’s key bits from the highly credentialed Almarg (RIP). He pretty much shows why the Decware claim (and tendentious anti-PS Audio arguments) are flotsam. Whether these products are right for me or anyone else is an open question. That has to be tried and listened to. But the notion Decware’s $1k conditioner would assist a $2k plus P.S. Audio regenerator is put to rest, for me.
Almarg:
"4) The fact that the power regenerator essentially breaks the path between ac from the wall and the ac input to the power amplifier, since the ac provided to the amplifier is derived from the regenerator’s internal oscillator, and is amplified by circuits that are isolated from the wall ac by the regenerator’s power supply....
"Filtering" of ac to me means something conceptually similar to putting an inductor in series with the ac line, and a capacitor across the ac line. Both of which tend to block high frequency noise components. And that is conceptually what a line conditioner does, while a regenerator will eliminate anything and everything other than 60Hz (not just high frequency noise components), including for instance 120Hz and 180Hz and other harmonic distortion which may be present on the power line.
...
…[I]n principle a power regenerator should do the best job. However, a good one, with sufficient output capability to power an amplifier and other components that may draw considerable current, will cost considerable $, and also be substantial in size and weight. The leading example that I know of is the PS Audio Power Plant Premier, which costs $2200.
…A power regenerator is an electronic component which contains internally a 60Hz oscillator driving a high capacity power amplifier. Its 60Hz output is what powers the audio system, and the ac from the wall is only used to power the regenerator itself. So in principle the audio system will see ac power that is very pure, and essentially free of noise, harmonics, etc.
A power conditioner is essentially a filter, which passes the 60Hz ac from the wall to the audio system, while attenuating to some degree the noise and other spectral impurities that may be present. Some of them also provide outlets that are isolated from each other to some degree, so that noise from digital components can be prevented from coupling into analog components via their power connections."
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My new basement has a second panel and there is a grounding rod outside. I need to get an expert over here to check it out, tell me what exactly everything is and if it's done properly. |
hilde45- Very simply, and for the last time:
What they are saying is they have a power supply that is so perfect nothing can possibly make it any better.
Do you believe them?
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Just an add on: If you are in an apartment, are there others? Best upgrade to a multi-unit building is a dedicated ground from your box. |
I believe common sense is an asset when it comes to this topic. The best solution to filtering or regenerating a garbage ac line is to eliminate it from the equation. I have an ASR amplifier that runs off two power supplies and a battery. The battery has installed, six lead acid gel rechargeable batteries. The two power supplies, recharge the battery and that’s how the power amp gets its juice. My system sounds clean and my other components are just plugged into a passive PS audio line filter. There are other high fidelity amplifier manufacturers who are offering battery power to their flagship products. And that’s because the solution is so simple. |
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Perhaps you don’t have an engineering explanation. This is not about claims or perfection or whatever. I’m trying to get to the bottom of what their product does and whether that obviates the need for a conditioner.
They claim to take AC power and regenerate it so that the result is nearly flawless. If that is what their product does, then a conditioner would only be filtering some noise out so that the P.S. Audio product takes *that* and regenerates that signal. That seems like overkill -- unless what you’re saying is that this is analogous to, say, making coffee with pure water rather than tap water. In that scenario, the filter in the coffee cone would do an even better job. Perhaps that’s what you’re saying?
But that analogy doesn’t quite work, since a coffee filter doesn’t "rebuild" the water, it only filters it. The regenerator reconstitutes the energy.
I am new to this and I don’t want to be tendentious. I’m sorry but I cannot make my question clearer.
Anyone else want to take a crack at my question? @atmasphere? |
They’re full of it for saying their unit is so good it obviates the need for anything else. Nothing obviates the need for anything else. Nobody ever made anything that couldn’t be improved upon. But that’s just me. The guy you are asking as if you still trust him (immediately after saying you don’t trust him).
Look at it this way. What they are saying is they have a power supply that is so perfect nothing can possibly make it any better. Forget all the technical details, that is what they are saying. Strip away all the window dressing, what they are really saying is they made the perfect product. So good nothing you or Decware or anyone else can ever do to make it any better.
Do you believe them?
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@lowrider57
@millercarbon
It does seem that each unit is stand alone. P.S. Audio claims that, based on how their unit works. Decware, however, says that it is and it isn't stand alone. His website clearly says that using both units can be complementary. That sounds like an effort to sell a conditioner to both customers with and without a regenerator.
MC says that "PSAudio is full of it." I'm going to take his advice and not merely trust him on that. Why are they full of it? Be specific, please, on this issue if you know the answer. What about their unit is *not* standalone? Or maybe the answer is that it just doesn't work? That would explain it, but please state that if it's true. Trying to learn, here.
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+1 for House!
Though I could see him being somewhat wearying on our boards ;)
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hilde45, my comment about learning how the PS Audio works was not directed at you.
Clearly, there is no need to double up with a power conditioner plus regenerator.
I use a Core Power Equi=Core 1800 which is a balanced power unit. After reading the Decware website, their conditioner works on a similar principle but is not fully-balanced.
The Decware is a standalone device as is the EquiCore as is a PS Audio reconditioner. The PSA does everything a conditioner does plus more; it generates a new sinusoidal AC signal, rather than outputting a cleaned version of the original.
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😳
Serves me right for embellishing the story, you missed the main point: in spite of what the manufacturer told me I went ahead and found out for myself. Most people are so scared and submissive it takes a lot to get them out of the feelings of helplessness our culture has so deeply beat into them. The point of the stories and House is not to say the manufacturer is lying in this specific instance. He is, but that is not the point. The point is to get you to do your own due diligence, to think, and to figure it out for yourself.
PSAudio is full of it. But I only know this on the basis of knowledge and experience far beyond anything I could ever post here. Even then guess what? Everyone lies! I just do it a lot less than most. But if instead of trusting the manufacturer you turn around and trust me just as blindly, well then I have yet again failed to get my point across.
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@millercarbon I love House! Great show. And I understand why manufacturers mislead or lie. But if a regenerator’s very design obviates the need for a conditioner -- which is a statement of fact (either true or false) -- then its being uttered by a manufacturer doesn’t change its truth value. To argue it does is ad hominem and doesn’t answer my question. |
Circling back to the Decware vs. regenerator issue. Here is what P.S. Audio wrote to me when I asked them about using both: "I don’t agree with the statement from Decware [that Decware's conditioner can be used in addition to a regenerator]. We do not recommend a line conditioner in conjunction with our power regenerators. We do feel that they can limit the power coming in from the wall by using high/low pass filters which do essentially choke the electricity to the regenerator."
So, which is it? Decware's version of what is best or P.S. Audio's? @millercarbon I'm still curious what you think since you have a lot of experience with power and also recommended the Decware. First time I called a manufacturer asking about something like this was around 1992. Mr Aronov assured me they use only the finest caps and there is nothing to be gained and we will not be responsible when you ruin our fine amp. Went ahead and was shocked how much better it sounded with $5 worth of HEXFRED diodes. Liquid, deep, black, the works. Tried the same thing a few more times until I gave up, finally realizing no manufacturer will ever tell you the truth, "We use the cheapest parts we feel we can get away with, and why not, I have a family to feed, and have you seen what a Ferrari costs these days?" Hard to argue. But what about power cords, fuses, vibration control? Let me assure you, deja vu all over again. Not only manufacturers. When I was new to autocross I went around asking guys what tire pressure they run. It's a club, friendly competition, they will tell me, right? Ha! Don't make me laugh! One guy seriously told me he doesn't know- WHILE HOLDING THE GAUGE TO THE VALVE STEM! Your homework assignment if you want to be the best audiophile you can be is to watch every episode of House, MD. There you will learn the most important lesson: here let me get you off to a good start- https://youtu.be/HgXpvzt7Qg8?t=105 |
@dkidknow - I think the biggest limitation may be that you are likely sharing power, or at least ground, with other units. I've never done a room in a coop or multi-unit building but only in single family houses. The dedicated lines give you some assurance that there are no noise inducing appliances on the same circuit as your hi-fi gear, but they all source back to a panel which feeds other equipment and in turn is tied to a common ground. In one house, I could hear certain lights and appliances despite dedicated lines in a listening room on the third floor of the house, at a remove from the noise inducing appliances.
I was never too concerned about audiophile branded wire for the dedicated runs or even for the receptacles, going with 10 gauge and the Hubbell hospital grade receptacles I mentioned from Albert Porter.
Your question about addressing problems at the source would lead me to ask how the power to your unit is wired from the building's utility room-- something you are probably not able to change, but an inspection by a qualified electrician may be informative. I also don't know what code permits you to build in (e.g. an isolation transformer) as opposed to a "black box" that connects to the receptacle. The gent I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, @jea48, has especially deep knowledge of code and best practices.
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Circling back to the Decware vs. regenerator issue. Here is what P.S. Audio wrote to me when I asked them about using both: "I don’t agree with the statement from Decware [that Decware's conditioner can be used in addition to a regenerator]. We do not recommend a line conditioner in conjunction with our power regenerators. We do feel that they can limit the power coming in from the wall by using high/low pass filters which do essentially choke the electricity to the regenerator."
So, which is it? Decware's version of what is best or P.S. Audio's? @millercarbon I'm still curious what you think since you have a lot of experience with power and also recommended the Decware. |
I wonder if you like a little more forward presentation than I do, which is one way of characterizing the difference between the Os and the 9s.
I didn't know about Bache, but something like that might be true of them: looks like metal high end drivers, while I gravitate to silk.
In any case, you'll be getting a homegrown speaker, which is cool.
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I spent an afternoon listening to my amp with the O96 at In Living Stereo (where I buy a lot of my gear) and while I enjoyed the experience, i didn’t walk away loving them so much. It’s all moot with those speakers because my listening room at the new apartment will also be my living room, and there just isn’t the space for 18” wide speakers.
I’ve had the LM amp since 2014 and could easily relate to what Herb had to say about it when he wrote that review. The Super 9s will fit in my space and are quite nice, but I’m actually most excited about the Bache Audio speakers, which are also a Brooklyn product. I’ve spent an afternoon with the designer Greg Bellman, listening to his 002AB and Tribeca speakers at his showroom near the Navy Yards and will likely end up with one of those. Highly recommended for their immediacy. |
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Well, maybe not a cure for insomnia! But I never did regret doing my lines, and eliminating one potentially messy variable, even if there was not an audible 'wow'. And the sticker price will seem muted, as part of a larger rehab.
On the speakers, huge fan of Devore -- John is a really nice guy, and it would be nicely fitting for you to buy local, from a builder who has NYC apts. in mind.
I have not heard the Super 9's but I much preferred the O/93 and 0/96 to the Nines -- more relaxed and musical I thought. If you are keeping the 22wpc amp, or are in any event committed to lower power tubes, I expect you'd welcome the higher efficiency of the 0s.
I came very close to getting the 93; for my money, they were quite competitive with the 96s at 75% of the cost.
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Jdoris, that’s some pretty solid reasoning, although it’s scary to think these are the things we require to sleep well at night.
FYI I’m already stepping my speakers up several levels because my little Merlin monitors won’t be able to fill the 28’ x 20’ room they’re moving to. The Merlins are moving to a home theatre in the den with a sub to round them out. Still not sure exactly what I’m going with for the main rig, but have basically narrowed my focus to Bache 002AB or TriBeCa, Focal Kanta 2 or Devore Super 9. |
dkidknow:
I seem to have heard differences in cabling, including power cords, and as I said, I have not heard conspicuous differences with dedicated lines. (Of course, lines not an easy change to meaningfully A/B).
So I hunch you'll hear more from the outlet than to the outlet. FWIW, I think you'd hear more with the same dollars in things besides cabling -- for example, a well considered 2100$ upgrade to speakers.
(One exception might be if if your kit is on a heavily loaded circuit: I suspect one could hear the draw of a refrigerator cycling.)
All things considered, though: my advice is to do the AC. My reason for this has to do with psychology unrelated to sound: now is the time to do it, since it will be an expensive hairball later, and if you stay in the hobby, you'll regret not doing it. From the wall improvements can always be done the next time you are feeling spendy, but not the AC, at least for a sensible price.
So my vote is to do the AC, and sleep well, secure in the knowledge that you are doing everything right. :)
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In NYC vinyl jacketed cable is not up to code. The JPS Labs wire I selected
would have to be in a conduit. The electrician has already wired with armored BX cable but can still replace with the JPS. It’s a 70 foot run, so would cost $2100. The Synergistic Research PowerCell 8 UEF SE will be just a few hundred more than that, so I’m thinking (as Millercarbon suggested) I may get more bang for the buck spending the money on the conditioner. However, it’s not strictly a zero-sum equation here. This is a big renovation (all old panels and wires are being replaced as a matter of course) and I just got quoted about $2k for each dining room chair, so am feeling particularly justified in spending a bit more on something that tickles my ears rather than simply supporting my derrière.
All things being equal, is there a better bang for the buck spending $2100 on JPS labs in-wall cable or upgrading my power cables? The advisor I’ve been speaking to at the Cable Company has suggested
it’s more cost-effective to supply better power from the source (in-wall) than to correct it between the outlet and component through power cords. Would appreciate responses on this last question only from those who would spend ANY money on upgrading power in the first place.
Electric is close to done and walls
will be closed up soon, so would appreciate responses! |
Declare looks like a very good power conditioner. They explain exactly how it works using filtering. PS Audio is a power regenerator. I think you should go to their website or a review to understand how it works. I've heard Paul at PS Audio talk about his regenerators a dozen times. There's nothing more I think I can learn from the website. Millercarbon directed this thread to the Decware unit which claims that it is useful even with a regenerator. That does not make sense. |
I n the OPs case 20 amp breaker is fine, 12AWG is fine no advantage to using 10AWG unless your run is very long, like100 feet or more. Industrial or hospital grade receptacles work well they grip better. |
Doesn't make any sense, the filtering inside each component protects it and the other components. There's nothing wrong with a power conditioner and in certain instances it can help but it's rarely needed. Surge protection is fine for surges and spikes but is useless for something like a direct lightning strike. That's what insurance is for. |
As I stated earlier, power conditioning also protects other components and the source from becoming contaminated.
No need to be another condescending jerk. |
Any competently built audio component should have mains noise filtering. AC , alternates, there is more noise inside the device than on a typical 60hz line, the filtering is to keep noise from entering your mains wiring as much as filtering any noise out of it. The best advice is learn about electricity and basic electronic requirements.
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I also have a whole house surge protector. It’s purpose is to protect all electrical devices in the house from spikes, fluctuation in the incoming power, and lightning strikes. It doesn’t clean the dirty power coming into the house from the grid.
I live in a city where power is dirty and has distortion that can be heard through my speakers as noise. That’s why I use a power conditioner. It lowers the noise floor, it’s providing higher S/N.
The best advise given was to look thru the archives and read the threads relating to "dedicated line." |
Declare looks like a very good power conditioner. They explain exactly how it works using filtering.
PS Audio is a power regenerator. I think you should go to their website or a review to understand how it works.
I use balanced power. The unit separates the hot and neutral from ground and filters the noise from the mains and other components, then outputs a much cleaner AC signal to be used by the audio system.
A new signal isn't regenerated, a much cleaner signal is the result. The Decware looks like it uses a similar process.
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I just wanted to add to what @jdoris said above. Your electrician may laugh at you when you tell him you want 10 gauge romex. He might ask if you plan to use an arc welder in that room. Don't let him change your mind. Tell him what you want and if he doesn't want to pull it get someone else. I ran my own 12 gauge circuit only because I already had the wire and space in my panel. If I had to buy the wire I would have used 10 gauge.
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A few random observations:
I'm sure you've checked, and a lot has been covered here, but a search for "dedicated lines" will reveal numerous useful threads -- common topic.
I've lived in three houses, and did dedicated lines in the first two.
In one case digital and amp on different lines, in another not, in all cases, upgraded outlets.
I did not notice dramatic differences, and am not in a hurry to do it in the new place. But if you've got room on the panel, and no special hassles to deal with, it's pretty short money by audiophile standards, so why not?
I definitely liked the piece of mind of whole house surge suppressor, which is also a reasonable outlay.
I'd certainly use a licensed electrician for liability reasons.
FWIW, the "sparkys" I consulted on these projects were completely incredulous that audiophile details like heavy gauge romex could make any difference -- but then, they don't like pulling heavy romex.
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Just a reminder to keep the 120volt cables apart from the telephone, low voltage cabling.
Also, has the electrician seen the job yet? Some may want you to replace a panel that doesn't fit more breakers/runs. Replacing the panel alone is not that big of a job. Something newer with more breakers may do for you. To go even further, when renovating, you may want to change the breaker and cable size of the main panel. The electrician will see this immediately when he comes to look.
Good luck.
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You don't need either unless your audio components haven't been engineered correctly or you live close an industrial park. Use a whole house surge protector. |
@lowrider Thanks. So the statement on the Decware site is flat out false? Or maybe some regenerators work differently and need a conditioner?
@millercarbon Since you recommended the Decware unit, perhaps you know what Decware is saying that both lowrider and I are missing? |
If one goes the regenerator route, do they also need a conditioner? No, you don't need both. A regenerator takes imperfect AC from the mains and generates the signal into a new clean sine-wave without noise and distortion. It's creating a new AC signal. Conditioners usually apply filtering to the incoming AC to remove noise and grunge. It then passes this signal through to it's output. |
