@decooney
excellent thank you for the insight, I’m really intrigued to hear how this all turns out!
excellent thank you for the insight, I’m really intrigued to hear how this all turns out!
Initial disappointment with 1st set of “expensive’ IC’s...
I’ve been slow working my way to equipping my rig with all Cardas as I’ve been fan of their quality/sound signature an for a long time. I just received 2 sets of Clear Light IC’s which I’m using DAC to Pre and Pre to Amp. up until now all other Cardas cables that I have were obtained used and sounded great from day 1. The Clear Light however are brand new..when I sat down to give them a listen I was surprised not to hear any improvement...I was actually disappointed to hear what I can describe as a fatter bass and subdued upper end. My prior IC’s were Shirokazu Yazaki Belden 8402. I admittedly do not have golden ears but the difference was obvious. I’m interested to hear what other Cardas owners have to say about how their cables sounded when 1st installed.
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@jl1ny +1 what paulcreed said. Those who’ve owned several pairs of different Cardas ICs over decades, know. The comments about movement are spot on too. Once I tried a backwards test experiment, coiled up and re-boxed a pair of my better well-used Cardas ICs, let them sit that way in the box for 30 days. Did this while evaluating other ICS, [Belden 8402s with Switchcraft connectors by the way]. Went back and uncoiled them, plugged them in for 14 days. Re-played those same Cardas ICs at day-1, then played them again a day-14. Once the cable and wire inside is much more relaxed, with little to no tension, they do transform to sound more open, more transparent, and that strange focused midrange spike at center stage goes away. Other aspects of texture picks up too. Had to try it to prove it and believe it. Started as a skeptic long ago, and became a believer later. While there is controversy by some about actual burn-in, I can share in every case with Cardas ICs [owned several pairs], they sounded different at Day 30-45 than what they sounded like originally new at day 1-7. I thought it was bad with Cardas having to wait to settle 30-45 days, geez my Analysis Plus Crystal Solos with OCC copper took 3x as long, almost gave up a few times. Never thought it would get there. Finally did. Had one pair fully settled in and two other brand new pairs. Compared all three sets. Give it time before drawing conclusions. And, BTW; had new Belden 8402s with Switchcraft ends, they were okay, neutral yet kinda grainy at times. Worth about the $89/pair I paid for them. Resold. Results will vary one cable to the next. This is how CableCo came up with their "Lending Library" https://www.thecableco.com/lending-library service offering. They also maintain a knowledge base for reference. |
jl1ny, looking at the dates of your post you have less than 2 weeks on your cables. Personally I wouldn't even listen to them for another 2 to 3 weeks just run them 24/7 on another system or rig a system in the garage and forget about them for a while. Anyone that has run in rhodium knows it can take way more than a month so your Cardas should be an easy break in. The Furutech NFC rhodium outlet break in was the longest I've even had to witness, so be patient then decide what to do with your cable in a few weeks. In my system if I move the wire around or disconnect things it can take a couple days before everything sounds correct again. You may be better off just leaving everything alone and see what happens. |
Thanks for the info, @jl1ny I'd come across that Jeff's Place article before but at the time was focused on the Dueland wire. Completely forgot about Belden and Mr. Yazaki. You might find the link here of interest. Given ground connection at both ends, looks to be similar to the Yazaki Belden IC. Price not quite as good as from Best-Tronics (but still very affordable). https://www.amazon.com/Tuneful-Cables-Belden-Audiophile-Interconnects/dp/B06VVBRNWX/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_... |
@ghosthouse Fantastic reviews, if smooth, natural and realistic (as they are described) is appealing to you then be prepared to buy a set after your done reading up, for the money I could not pass on trying them. Start here: https://jeffsplace.positive-feedback.com/adventures-in-real-sound-with-mr-shirokazu-yazaki-sneak-pee... |
@ghosthouse Correct, my friend came over Sat & Sun. Prior upgrades have been clear noticeable improvements. when I upped my amp game from a Meridian 556 to the ARC D400 Mk2 I was jaw dropped. Same for when I upgraded my DAC..It was when I started tweaking preamp tubes, speaker cables, IC’s that the changes were less obvious. |
Conclusion: I’ve been into Hi-Fi for decades but when it comes to critical listening I suck. I love geeking out on the gear but when it comes down to it, analyzing and trying to tweak what’s wrong with my system becomes frustrating. I find components easier to work with than cables.like someone just said dont beat yourself... I was exatly like you few years ago... The difference is linked to this 3 advices i will give you: Buy basic relatively good gear first that you can afford without breaking the bank.... Second: never upgrade and dont buy other cables than basic good one to begins with... Third: methodically experiment with vibrations controls in gear, try to drecease the electrical noise floor of the house/gear/room and ESPECIALLY important experiment with acoustic.... Try to not throw any big money, instead experiment and TRUST your ears.... You are perfect like i was but without knowing it and doubting myself reading all the market reviewers... Dont read reviews, experiment gently with homemade solutions or low cost products... You are perfect but you dont know it right now..... Regards.... |
@jl1ny Interesting report. I take it your friend came to make cable changes (or not) both Saturday and Sunday? In any case, don’t beat up on yourself. What you hear and how you "feel" about what you hear has a huge subjective component to it but that is definitely not said to dismiss possible objective effects of changing cables, etc. I’m not familiar with your specific Belden 8402 or Cardas Clear Light ICs. Maybe with your gear they’re very close sonically. Same system, no changes, dedicated power circuits, power conditioner blah blah blah - yet some days my system seems to sound better than others. I attribute a lot of that to how well rested I am (mental energy and focus), weather conditions!, and just how psyched I am about a listening session or the music playing. I’ve never been that into A/B-ing myself. Make a change and live with it for a while but don’t go back and forth too quickly. If the change is going to have an audible effect, I can usually tell right away and I absolutely don’t claim to have "golden ears" sensitive to subtle nuance in the sonics. If I have to stand on my head and squint to hear it, probably not signifiant for me (regardless what others say). If I do hear an immediate change but not quite sure if it’s a good change or not, all the more reason for patience and to live with it for a while. The Shunyata Alpha power cord I trialed was that way. It took a loooong time for that thing to settle in and open up, whatever you want to call it. Once everything has reached "equilibrium" (including my ears) try going back to the old set up. Not something I enjoy doing! but a "collapse" of sonics, loss of intelligibility of lyrics, less ease in the sound...those are some of the things that point to the change having been a good one. Hope that doesn’t across as patronizing or stating the obvious. Good luck in your evaluation. |
@ghosthouse So I did the a/b this past weekend....Saturday morning a friend of mine came over and I stepped outside while he decided to put either the Cardas or Shirokazu Yazaki Belden 8402 in play. Music would be the same selection of Qobuz Hi-Rez favorites for both days. I listened all day Saturday, morning was about 2 hours, dinner 1 hour and ended the day with a late night session of 4hrs. I marked Saturday as CARDAS...While I initially thought I was detecting the Belden’s clarity on the upper end, I was convinced that the mid-bass was still congested and the low end, heavy. Sunday, same procedure. I sat down for a good 3 hours doing bills and answering emails while listening. Then about 1 hour at dinner and 3 hours late night. I marked Sunday as BELDEN...upper end seemed clear, mid range smooth...BELDEN?female vocals seemed right on...definitely Belden. Monday morning my buddy called and he tells me the BELDEN was in play both days...WTF? Couple notes I took, I could not detect any change in soundstage or imaging. I do think the one thing my ears are sensitive to is changes in the upper end. I second guessed my ears on Saturday when I was spot on with what I thought was the cleaner less rolled off top end of the Belden. Identifying the low end was tougher than expected...thought about switching off my sub, but didn’t. Conclusion: I’ve been into Hi-Fi for decades but when it comes to critical listening I suck. I love geeking out on the gear but when it comes down to it, analyzing and trying to tweak what’s wrong with my system becomes frustrating. I find components easier to work with than cables. I’m still interested to see what happens with the Cardas burn in. I’ll keep them in play for this month then take a crack at another A/B. |
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@dletch2 Yes, [pF] picofarad per/foot standard measurement is what I was referring to. A typical 3.0 ft interconnect cable on the higher side at 26pF per foot results close to 78pF in total, and an 8ft 26pF interconnect would be closer to a few hundred pF as I understand it. Back to the original question and all other values aside (or what someone can or not hear,) what cables are you measuring or referring to would be "usually a few 100 pF"? Are they 8-10’ foot interconnects? |
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@dletch2 "Interconnects are usually a few 100 pF tops." What interconnect cables are you referring to? 16pF - 26pF max capacitance is the range for many of the IC cables I've owned or evaluated for manufacturers over the past two decades. Includes Cardas, Audioquest, Apature, Audio Note, Analysis Plus, Belden, customs, and others. Many of the cables at 26pF tended to be a little more rolled off on top end frequency. Interested to know what is usually "a few hundred 100 pF" for regular home audio use in your case. |
It occurs to me: as many things as go on in a musical signal, at the same time, any information loss is critical, as well as potentially inevitable. To state categorically, that what I proposed as a POSSIBILITY is not even to be considered, exhibits the height of hubris (no shock). Even the speed of a signal is subject to the Dielectric Constant of the conducting transmission line’s dielectric. ie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_velocity AND: Yes, PC boards and cables are BOTH, "transmission lines". |
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Possibilities as to why cables (which, hopefully, everyone will agree exhibit capacitance) MIGHT change their performance, with time/movement: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/dielec.html and: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/dielectric-absorption It's been widely observed; the better the dielectric (ie: Teflon, polyethylene or polypropylene), the lower the Dielectric Constant and the longer the adjustment/polarization. Not saying anything about the OP's situation, in particular. There are WAY to many variables. |
There is no need to spend thousands on interconnects. Just buy something that is made well, with quality materials, by a reputable company. There are many so called budget lines from various manufacturers that sound excellent. An interconnect from the following companies will provide you with all you need, chord, ecosse, Atlas, Qed, Audioquest. |
@dletch Please do me a favour and stop using "we". As someone who lives in reality, I don't want to be lumped in with your asinine assertions. Really should learn to speak for yourself. Quite an arrogant assumption that anyone, especially all those who live in the place known as reality, would want you to speak for them. |
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I’m just going to leave this here. An article about psychology written by somebody with zero medical or psychology credentials? LMAO ... |
@dletch2 "Superior", that’s up to your ears. No, not "obvious" to an untrained eye and unknowing buyer. It’s an actual serial numbered cable and registered library with Cardas for repairs, warranty, and re-termination of ends if necessary. Some owners keep them for 20+ years, and buyers want to know they are authentic too. Send them back to Cardas to authenticate if someone is uncertain and needs help. :-( FAKE COUNTERFEIT imposter cables are out there. Watch out! Idiots make them and uninformed people buy them thinking they got a deal. And, yes, it becomes very "obvious" when fakes sound like crap. Buyer Beware! They are one of the most counterfeited cables out there. See all the links and articles with photos below. counterfeit: https://scontent.fsac1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.18172-8/11056052_10156892349565131_9067457819617729795_... counterfeit: http://www.element-acoustics.ca/archive/audio_visits/43-1.jpg counterfeit: http://www.element-acoustics.ca/archive/audio_visits/43-2.jpg counterfiet: http://www.element-acoustics.ca/archive/audio_visits/43-3.jpg counterfeit: http://www.element-acoustics.ca/archive/audio_visits/43-4.jpg counterfeit: http://www.element-acoustics.ca/archive/audio_visits/43-5.jpg counterfeit: http://www.element-acoustics.ca/archive/audio_visits/43-6.jpg Cardas verification, Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CardasAudio/photos/we’re-often-asked-to-verify/10156892349565131/ Article by Element Acoustics in CA: http://www.element-acoustics.ca/audio_visits.php?aid=43 Best of Luck |
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I'm just going to leave this here. https://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/audio-cable-break-in-science-or-psychological |
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You can call it burn in.You can call it break-in.A good quality copper conductor is...a good quality copper conductor.There is nothing to burn in or break in, no moving parts, or structural or chemical changes possible.The only area I know of, where the electrical characteristics of the conductor has a truly measurable effect on the intended performance of the product, is with grain oriented vs. non-grain oriented electrical motor lamination's, i.e. where the quality of and the internal structure of the lamination is internally different. A commercially pure copper conductor with quality connectors will give most people what their systems are capable of providing. Every extra cent you spend on flash, color, brand and reputation is wasted. |
Cables take a while to sound their best. I don't know what the science behind it is, and I don't really care. I have experienced this phenomenon so many times that I know it's true. Just be patient. It will settle after a while. Resistors, capacitors, vacuum tubes, regulators etc. also take a little time to settle, so it's not unique to cables. |
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My experience has been if the original sound is unpleasant - time can't make it better. I attempted speaker cable try-outs comparing Canare 4S11, Rocket 44 and new set of Kimber 12 TCs speaker cables and the high's were harsh and the bass was muffled. Since I owned the others and it was the first real difference I heard I then tried the Kimber Bifocals and I liked the sound difference. After about 100 hours I have had several 'wow' moments with music having delicate details and dynamic shifts. Interconnects I used another method - let them play in the background and not actively listen for a week or so. (My dog gets to listen to music when I'm not home). Then I listened and there have been several 'I didn't notice that moments' on some well known songs. Part of me wonders is it the improved cables and part of me realizes I didn't notice and I have had guests comment on the sound quality and how the song sounds so much bigger. Bottom line - if the IC sounds bad to you I wouldn't waste my time, If it doesn't sound 'better' let it play a bit and then re-evaluate. |
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When we change something we are normally critically listening for the first time in a long time. To that end, we may pick up on things that are not right (and probably were not before either), or we notice things we did not notice before, even though they were clearly there before and they are unchanged. It's like Where's Waldo. Waldo does not suddenly appear. He was always there. You just were not looking for him." - Is this artistic privilege or creative license? You seem to be speaking for the collective "we". I know I am not part of your way of thinking. Maybe speaking for yourself will serve you better and not present the air of arrogance. |
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