Penrose had no evidence, no proof, nothingI suppose you do? At least Penrose does not plagiarize the Wiki page :-)
IM Distortion, Speakers and the Death of Science
One topic that often comes up is perception vs. measurements.
"If you can't measure it with common, existing measurements it isn't real."
This idea is and always will be flawed. Mind you, maybe what you perceive is not worth $1, but this is not how science works. I'm reminded of how many doctors and scientists fought against modernizing polio interventions, and how only recently did the treatment for stomach ulcers change radically due to the curiosity of a pair of forensic scientists.
Perception precedes measurement. In between perception and measurement is (always) transference to visual data. Lets take an example.
You are working on phone technology shortly after Bell invents the telephone. You hear one type of transducer sounds better than another. Why is that? Well, you have to figure out some way to see it (literally), via a scope, a charting pen, something that tells you in an objective way why they are different, that allows you to set a standard or goal and move towards it.
This person probably did not set out to measure all possible things. Maybe the first thing they decide to measure is distortion, or perhaps frequency response. After visualizing the raw data the scientist then has to decide what the units are, and how to express differences. Lets say it is distortion. In theory, there could have been a lot of different ways to measure distortion. Such as Vrms - Vrms (expected) /Hz. Depending on the engineer's need at the time, that might have been a perfectly valid way to measure the output.
But here's the issue. This may work for this engineer solving this time, and we may even add it to the cannon of common measurements, but we are by no means done.
So, when exactly are we done?? At 1? 2? 5? 30? The answer is we are not. There are several common measurements for speakers for instance which I believe should be done more by reviewers:
- Compression
- Intermodulation ( IM ) Distortion
- Distortion
and yet, we do not. IM distortion is kind of interesting because I had heard about it before from M&K's literature, but it reappeared for me in the blog of Roger Russel ( http://www.roger-russell.com ) formerly from McIntosh. I can't find the blog post, but apparently they used IM distortion measurements to compare the audibility of woofer changes quite successfully.
Here's a great example of a new measurement being used and attributed to a sonic characteristic. Imagine the before and after. Before using IM, maybe only distortion would have been used. They were of course measuring impedance and frequency response, and simple harmonic distortion, but Roger and his partner could hear something different not expressed in these measurements, so, they invent the use of it here. That invention is, in my mind, actual audio science.
The opposite of science would have been to say "frequency, impedance, and distortion" are the 3 characteristics which are audible, forever. Nelson pass working with the distortion profile, comparing the audible results and saying "this is an important feature" is also science. He's throwing out the normal distortion ratings and creating a whole new set of target behavior based on his experiments. Given the market acceptance of his very expensive products I'd say he's been damn good at this.
What is my point to all of this? Measurements in the consumer literature have become complacent. We've become far too willing to accept the limits of measurements from the 1980's and fail to develop new standard ways of testing. As a result of this we have devolved into camps who say that 1980's measures are all we need, those who eschew measurements and very little being done to show us new ways of looking at complex behaviors. Some areas where I believe measurements should be improved:
We have become far too happy with this stale condition, and, for the consumers, science is dead.
"If you can't measure it with common, existing measurements it isn't real."
This idea is and always will be flawed. Mind you, maybe what you perceive is not worth $1, but this is not how science works. I'm reminded of how many doctors and scientists fought against modernizing polio interventions, and how only recently did the treatment for stomach ulcers change radically due to the curiosity of a pair of forensic scientists.
Perception precedes measurement. In between perception and measurement is (always) transference to visual data. Lets take an example.
You are working on phone technology shortly after Bell invents the telephone. You hear one type of transducer sounds better than another. Why is that? Well, you have to figure out some way to see it (literally), via a scope, a charting pen, something that tells you in an objective way why they are different, that allows you to set a standard or goal and move towards it.
This person probably did not set out to measure all possible things. Maybe the first thing they decide to measure is distortion, or perhaps frequency response. After visualizing the raw data the scientist then has to decide what the units are, and how to express differences. Lets say it is distortion. In theory, there could have been a lot of different ways to measure distortion. Such as Vrms - Vrms (expected) /Hz. Depending on the engineer's need at the time, that might have been a perfectly valid way to measure the output.
But here's the issue. This may work for this engineer solving this time, and we may even add it to the cannon of common measurements, but we are by no means done.
So, when exactly are we done?? At 1? 2? 5? 30? The answer is we are not. There are several common measurements for speakers for instance which I believe should be done more by reviewers:
- Compression
- Intermodulation ( IM ) Distortion
- Distortion
and yet, we do not. IM distortion is kind of interesting because I had heard about it before from M&K's literature, but it reappeared for me in the blog of Roger Russel ( http://www.roger-russell.com ) formerly from McIntosh. I can't find the blog post, but apparently they used IM distortion measurements to compare the audibility of woofer changes quite successfully.
Here's a great example of a new measurement being used and attributed to a sonic characteristic. Imagine the before and after. Before using IM, maybe only distortion would have been used. They were of course measuring impedance and frequency response, and simple harmonic distortion, but Roger and his partner could hear something different not expressed in these measurements, so, they invent the use of it here. That invention is, in my mind, actual audio science.
The opposite of science would have been to say "frequency, impedance, and distortion" are the 3 characteristics which are audible, forever. Nelson pass working with the distortion profile, comparing the audible results and saying "this is an important feature" is also science. He's throwing out the normal distortion ratings and creating a whole new set of target behavior based on his experiments. Given the market acceptance of his very expensive products I'd say he's been damn good at this.
What is my point to all of this? Measurements in the consumer literature have become complacent. We've become far too willing to accept the limits of measurements from the 1980's and fail to develop new standard ways of testing. As a result of this we have devolved into camps who say that 1980's measures are all we need, those who eschew measurements and very little being done to show us new ways of looking at complex behaviors. Some areas where I believe measurements should be improved:
- The effects of vibration on ss equipment
- Capacitor technology
- Interaction of linear amps with cables and speaker impedance.
We have become far too happy with this stale condition, and, for the consumers, science is dead.
335 responses Add your response
heaudio123 Voice recognition and speech recognition mean the same thing and you will find that almost every reference to voice recognition uses a definition that is the same as speech recognition. If you meant voice identification, then don’t blame me for improper use of terminology. >>>>You’re being argumentative again. I said voice recognition/voice generation. You’re just playing word games. Are you sure you’re not Ethan Winer? Or maybe roberttcan. |
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heaudio123"I see in addition to not knowing how sigma-delta DACs work, not knowing much about AI, and not knowing how common mode inductors work, you also don't know what the word plagiarize means" Actually the others who are contributing here have substantially more knowledge, experience, and expertise in these technical matters so rather than discuss with them in the effort to learn that which you do not know you dismiss, reject, and deny simple facts about engineering, science, and audio in general. |
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That opens the question about the definition of "extended"."where is the consciousness that survive death" Did Penrose have anything to say about that, or should we wait for Artificial Intelligence to mature enough to give us an answer? Breaking water buffaloes🐃! New research suggests that when you are dead, you are dead. n=in billions over the centuries. So far, dead bodies haven't appeared to care much about the consciousness left or not left after the fact. |
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I see in addition to not knowing how sigma-delta DACs work, not knowing much about AI, and not knowing how common mode inductors work, you also don’t know what the word plagiarize means, but like the other 3 that won’t stop you from posting about it.Looks like you got caught on the DAC stuffs, so now you’re just blowing hot air lols. I mean "one bit Sigma Delta" probably from the Wiki page you read lols. So obvious! |
New research suggests that when you are dead, you are dead. n=in billions over the centuries. So far, dead bodies haven’t appeared to care much about the consciousness left or not left after the fact.If some spirits are dead absolutely after death, I might consider to adopt your limited, non scientific, curious modern materialist superstition....I dont want to encounter some spirit on a reincarnation.... I will give you a way to figure this thing out: use your imagination, and learn that this gift is not only there to lie.... The creative imagination of man is that give us access to art, science, and numbers....Without that imagination we are like animals.... To perceive the invisible is a gift to scientist and artist... |
mahgister, If you only paid attention to what I post and not focus on trying to insult me at every moment, you would not need to repost my words a couple of weeks later and credit whoever you are infatuated with at that moment. When you are dead, you are dead. That is how it goes. Believe in what you wish. |
If you only paid attention to what I post and not focus on trying to insult meYou dont even remember anything correctly.... I even apologize few times to you to keep peace to no avail... You go on harassing my posts with half truth to your convenience.... And after that glupson you ,make threat in my back, I can give you the posts if you want, and you accuse me of something inacceptable like contribute to kills people.... This is too much..... I am a soul who can apologize, I can recognise when I am wrong, I never made any threat here to anyone, I am friendly with people of different political opinions....but there is limit.... You crossed them... Dont read my posts and dont trail me anymore.... |
andy2, "Anyway, I am still waiting for AI to cook for me. I suppose I may have to wait for a pretty long time."Page 2 mentions some of the things, but all may be of interest to you... https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=8789743 http://www.open-meals.com/sushisingularity/index_e.html |
I notice that Elon Musk has stopped talking about Level 5 self driving. I think it's a lot more complicated to replace a human behind the wheel than he had thought. I've also heard people telling me software now can land an airplane. Sure, it can be done in an ideal and controlled environment, but when you factor in real world weather condition, it's still a human pilot landing the airplane. If you were a passenger and your life in on the line, would you trust the software? (737 MAX comes to mind?) Another example is reading brain scan for sign of cancer. Sure there are AI that are claimed to be able to, but at the end, a real doctor has to look over and sign off. AI can assist a human for some very specific tasks, but at the end, a human has the final say. |
https://youtu.be/_sBBaNYex3E Maybe they can teach "him" how to cook too and can beat Bobby Flay on the game show. |
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The essential point is not the limits of the A. I..... In some aspect compared to humans there is none... The problem is the A. I. is a non grounded artificial intelligence, non grounded in the life web, non grounded even in the cosmos... A.I. dont need anything the humans need.... No water is necessary, no atmosphere, and nothing a human need is needed by A.I. ….In the future this A. I. will no more needed the humans so stupid to has make this " intelligence" necessary to his own life....This A. I. dont need humans at all, only in the beginning to assist his birthing... Forget Asimov with his robotic ingenuous law... In the universe this A. I. non carbon base form of artificial life exist already....It is immortal in a factice way and can explore the universe but cannot go out of this universe.... Some foolish civilizations had already made this mistake in the past, others will make it also in the future... Contrary to A.I. Human have a soul, can die, and change from a universe to an another.... Human can die because they are truly immortal consciousness....A. I. is not even living....No internal connections to all life... Think about the link you have trough your body with billions of living cells and through them to all historical life memory... If someone can understand the mathematics relatively simple of A. I. ( a mathematical conference of few hours will do) then he will understand why these machine have no limit on one dimension only.... In the other dimensions of existence these machine dont even exist.... The essence of intelligence is the soul, the connected memory linking us all from cells to whales with trees and other life forms in the universe... Materialist can call my post a novel.... This universal living memory cellular like is even a mathematical fact tough, but from a higher form of mathematics than algorithm theory, be it classical Turing machine, or quantum logical one... The higher mathematics are a way to figure out the link between universes, like the link between different cellular organism, this link is a functional dynamic memory with forgetful functions, and what interested me is the way that some mathematician figure out how to describe it and the bridge that go from one universes or memory to an another one....What entity can survive, what information can survive the passage between 2 universes... The central core of this reflection revolve around the prime number theory and algebraic geometry for those who are curious... A.I. is promised to a powerful astonishing success without apparent limits, beware it will be one of the most dangerous road.... But other danger and perils waited for us...Never mind suffice to know that we are immortals then.... All is experiments creations and plays like in Audio, better to create than only buying the electronic components.... |
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Tasks like looking up the Wiki page will certainly be replaced by AI :-) The last time I checked, Ford assembly lines are full of human beings putting together some pretty basic stuffs. If anyone, they would be the first ones to go, not chefs nor doctors nor pilots. Back in the 1960's and 50's, there were tons of drawings of flying cars promising the futures will be full of cars flying and relieving the traffic congestion. Does it sound familiar? The more things change, the more they stay the same. But I promise this time it will be different :-) |
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There’s obviously someone inside that.That someone has a very narrow and flexible waist. Almost like a robot. |
Actually GP doctors will be hit hard, much harder than nurses but long haul truckers will be the first to be hit hard. Listen to the link under and after that guess who will be obsolete... Like someone just said, truck drivers, doctors, but certainly many engineers here not all for sure, but no philosophers and certainly not my wife.... :) One of the best introduction to neural networks... Naftaly Tishby is a mathematician physicist and is a very good known specialist : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL07WEc2TRI |
No Andy2, he is right even dentists will be replaced...what he forget is 3/4 of the crowds of engineers will vanish also.... But if perspective of the future is seen through a tunneling vision only, you cannot see what is at stakes with A. I. Simple mathematics dont says all.... ok I will vanish in aisle 3.... My best ... |
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Can anyone name one GP doctor that got replaced by AI? I would love to have a job that I can say anything but don't have to back up with any evidences. Anyway, this morning I called my health insurance help center, and I was greeted with what was an AI automated helper. I got so frustrated I almost slammed my phone. Luckily, I was later got hooked up to a real person. |
"...the last time I checked, the US economy unemployment rate was at 3.5%."It was a long time ago. March was 4.4%. Newest one I do not know, but It is probably a bit higher. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/16/unemployment-claims-coronavirus/ |