Doppler distortion presents as IM distortion and is inherent in moving element speakers. That element of what is measured as IM distortion cannot be designed out except by narrowing the frequency range of the driver, and by larger drivers requiring less movement.
IM Distortion, Speakers and the Death of Science
One topic that often comes up is perception vs. measurements.
"If you can't measure it with common, existing measurements it isn't real."
This idea is and always will be flawed. Mind you, maybe what you perceive is not worth $1, but this is not how science works. I'm reminded of how many doctors and scientists fought against modernizing polio interventions, and how only recently did the treatment for stomach ulcers change radically due to the curiosity of a pair of forensic scientists.
Perception precedes measurement. In between perception and measurement is (always) transference to visual data. Lets take an example.
You are working on phone technology shortly after Bell invents the telephone. You hear one type of transducer sounds better than another. Why is that? Well, you have to figure out some way to see it (literally), via a scope, a charting pen, something that tells you in an objective way why they are different, that allows you to set a standard or goal and move towards it.
This person probably did not set out to measure all possible things. Maybe the first thing they decide to measure is distortion, or perhaps frequency response. After visualizing the raw data the scientist then has to decide what the units are, and how to express differences. Lets say it is distortion. In theory, there could have been a lot of different ways to measure distortion. Such as Vrms - Vrms (expected) /Hz. Depending on the engineer's need at the time, that might have been a perfectly valid way to measure the output.
But here's the issue. This may work for this engineer solving this time, and we may even add it to the cannon of common measurements, but we are by no means done.
So, when exactly are we done?? At 1? 2? 5? 30? The answer is we are not. There are several common measurements for speakers for instance which I believe should be done more by reviewers:
- Compression
- Intermodulation ( IM ) Distortion
- Distortion
and yet, we do not. IM distortion is kind of interesting because I had heard about it before from M&K's literature, but it reappeared for me in the blog of Roger Russel ( http://www.roger-russell.com ) formerly from McIntosh. I can't find the blog post, but apparently they used IM distortion measurements to compare the audibility of woofer changes quite successfully.
Here's a great example of a new measurement being used and attributed to a sonic characteristic. Imagine the before and after. Before using IM, maybe only distortion would have been used. They were of course measuring impedance and frequency response, and simple harmonic distortion, but Roger and his partner could hear something different not expressed in these measurements, so, they invent the use of it here. That invention is, in my mind, actual audio science.
The opposite of science would have been to say "frequency, impedance, and distortion" are the 3 characteristics which are audible, forever. Nelson pass working with the distortion profile, comparing the audible results and saying "this is an important feature" is also science. He's throwing out the normal distortion ratings and creating a whole new set of target behavior based on his experiments. Given the market acceptance of his very expensive products I'd say he's been damn good at this.
What is my point to all of this? Measurements in the consumer literature have become complacent. We've become far too willing to accept the limits of measurements from the 1980's and fail to develop new standard ways of testing. As a result of this we have devolved into camps who say that 1980's measures are all we need, those who eschew measurements and very little being done to show us new ways of looking at complex behaviors. Some areas where I believe measurements should be improved:
We have become far too happy with this stale condition, and, for the consumers, science is dead.
"If you can't measure it with common, existing measurements it isn't real."
This idea is and always will be flawed. Mind you, maybe what you perceive is not worth $1, but this is not how science works. I'm reminded of how many doctors and scientists fought against modernizing polio interventions, and how only recently did the treatment for stomach ulcers change radically due to the curiosity of a pair of forensic scientists.
Perception precedes measurement. In between perception and measurement is (always) transference to visual data. Lets take an example.
You are working on phone technology shortly after Bell invents the telephone. You hear one type of transducer sounds better than another. Why is that? Well, you have to figure out some way to see it (literally), via a scope, a charting pen, something that tells you in an objective way why they are different, that allows you to set a standard or goal and move towards it.
This person probably did not set out to measure all possible things. Maybe the first thing they decide to measure is distortion, or perhaps frequency response. After visualizing the raw data the scientist then has to decide what the units are, and how to express differences. Lets say it is distortion. In theory, there could have been a lot of different ways to measure distortion. Such as Vrms - Vrms (expected) /Hz. Depending on the engineer's need at the time, that might have been a perfectly valid way to measure the output.
But here's the issue. This may work for this engineer solving this time, and we may even add it to the cannon of common measurements, but we are by no means done.
So, when exactly are we done?? At 1? 2? 5? 30? The answer is we are not. There are several common measurements for speakers for instance which I believe should be done more by reviewers:
- Compression
- Intermodulation ( IM ) Distortion
- Distortion
and yet, we do not. IM distortion is kind of interesting because I had heard about it before from M&K's literature, but it reappeared for me in the blog of Roger Russel ( http://www.roger-russell.com ) formerly from McIntosh. I can't find the blog post, but apparently they used IM distortion measurements to compare the audibility of woofer changes quite successfully.
Here's a great example of a new measurement being used and attributed to a sonic characteristic. Imagine the before and after. Before using IM, maybe only distortion would have been used. They were of course measuring impedance and frequency response, and simple harmonic distortion, but Roger and his partner could hear something different not expressed in these measurements, so, they invent the use of it here. That invention is, in my mind, actual audio science.
The opposite of science would have been to say "frequency, impedance, and distortion" are the 3 characteristics which are audible, forever. Nelson pass working with the distortion profile, comparing the audible results and saying "this is an important feature" is also science. He's throwing out the normal distortion ratings and creating a whole new set of target behavior based on his experiments. Given the market acceptance of his very expensive products I'd say he's been damn good at this.
What is my point to all of this? Measurements in the consumer literature have become complacent. We've become far too willing to accept the limits of measurements from the 1980's and fail to develop new standard ways of testing. As a result of this we have devolved into camps who say that 1980's measures are all we need, those who eschew measurements and very little being done to show us new ways of looking at complex behaviors. Some areas where I believe measurements should be improved:
- The effects of vibration on ss equipment
- Capacitor technology
- Interaction of linear amps with cables and speaker impedance.
We have become far too happy with this stale condition, and, for the consumers, science is dead.
335 responses Add your response
IM distortion seems to be the only really important one as far as sound quality goes.It is one of many variables. Two drivers, one with lower IM does not necessarily really mean it is the better, although having low IM is important. Another important variable is the material of the driver such as a paper, metallic, ceramic ... and so on. Most modern drivers have fairly good IM so the determining factor may be what material the driver is made of. For example, a very good paper cone is still a paper cone and cannot compete with more exotic material such as ceramic. |
While your comments on IM distortion are quite valid and overlooked, for the most part, science is dead because there is so little correlation between bench measurements and sound quality. This is why all those charts in Stereophile, etc. are worthless. Don't really understand why that is but The Audio Critic (before Peter Aczel went off the deep end) and The Absolute Sound showed that over and over for the last 40 years. Of all the measurements, IM distortion seems to be the only really important one as far as sound quality goes. I think it is ignored by manufacturers because it IS important and their numbers are so bad. |
@ivan_nosnibor I wrote something about ESL’s that appears to be incorrect. This is a retraction while I work on better understanding the mechanics. I wrote: All moving drivers suffer from Doppler distortion, and the distortion, including IM of ESL panels is as much if not worse. ESL’s often sound better due to how they couple to the room though. Apparently, the large surface area of an ESL leads to small displacements and less opportunity for Doppler distortion. My mistake. That was a clear error of memory on my part and I apologize for it and subsequent confusion it may have caused. I’m clearly conflating something I read long ago about the precision and distortion of ESL panels and need to either read it again or stop talking about something I don’t remember well enough. :) Best, Erik |
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@erik_squires I couldn't follow many of the graphs and such, but I found the summary and discussions pretty intriguing. Didn't realize it was known that (dynamic) drivers had that kind of "memory"...(and yet somehow it does not entirely surprise me??...maybe I absorbed something by osmosis over the years somehow [by listening I mean]). Thanks for the links. I'll need to revisit them going forward and see if I can go a little deeper into it. |
I wanted to post a very interesting review of a recent mid-woofer driver, not because I want you to buy that driver, but because it's very interesting how the reviewer actually does consider both Doppler and IM distortion in his review, and just slightly starts to tie it to listening. It would be very interesting to see if these measurements ever filter to finished products. https://hificompass.com/en/reviews/purifi-audio-ptt65w04-01a-midwoofer Further reading here: https://www.stereophile.com/reference/1104red/index.html Also, if we take the measurements to heart, it explains how/why a subwoofer can greatly enhance the clarity of a 2-way speaker system. |
Here, belatedly, is a picture-perfect example of the kind of (protracted) misinformation campaign that manufacturers have, and do, engage in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPqpuTO6Kd4 If you can watch the whole way through, you can see the story unfold in front of you. Although the video is by no means meant as indictment, per se, of this sort of behavior, you should be able to see why I for one am not automatically willing to accept at face value what any given maker has to say about their product or design. The long, slo-mo dance presented here involves certainly the initial ignorance or misapprehension on the part of the consumer, but also the deliberate manipulation of that ignorance on the part of the manufacturer - even if that can stem, quite understandably, from the maker's unwillingness to surrender technical discussion to their competition. But, this sort of thing is why I do not take, nor ever will take, nor should ever be expected to take, a manufacturer's explanation simply at face value, no matter how respectfully they may present it. This does not mean that all makers are evil and therefore must be burned at the steak, it just bears outs caveat emptor. But, a certain amount of these behavioral motives here are necessarily going to be baked in. The harder any manufacturer works at being polished at appearing to make all the above out to be a non-issue, the more suspicious of their ultimate motives I typically become. In general, there can be reasons to doubt such highly polished explanations as well as those that are not nearly trying so hard or certainly even those who offer no explanation or rationale at all. But, the video happens to be an excellent encapsulation of human nature in the marketplace. |
Hey, that’s nothing. Two Mind Lamps 💡💡will interact with each other if left alone in the room together. And they don’t even have to be programmed. Under normal circumstances Mind Lamps interact with humans. Ye olde Mind-Matter Interaction. Yes, I know what you’re thinking, How can the human mind influence inanimate objects? 😟 |
Perhaps only slightly related to AI but enlightening to me, I was at an audio meet when someone mentioned he worked at a major communications company that performed an experiment. They created a machine to run wild with AI software, left to its own devices to”create”. They found the limiting factor in obtaining progress was that humans were doing the inputting. So they created a second machine for it to interact with. After watching the evolution of the 2 machines , they lost ability to monitor what the 2 machines were up to. They had created their own language to communicate to each other and the people monitoring could not decipher it. They concluded this was going in a dangerous direction and destroyed both machines. If you are familiar with this, pardon me if I got some of the details not exactly right, I am just relaying a story heard at a gathering. my point is, it may be dangerous to find out if machines can replicate themselves on evolutionary level. |
millercarbon, AI, quantum computing etc are knocking on our door and will shortly change every facet of life as we know it. Which shows just how far they have to go. Stupid robot can't even see we have a doorbell. I have the same problem with certain visitors and delivery folk. These doorbells can be tricky blighters! |
mahgister, Technology and audio have gone hand in hand ever since reproduction of sound became possible. In fact mankind had to wait eons until technology had advanced sufficiently for the recording and reproduction of sound to become possible. AI, quantum computing etc are knocking on our door and will shortly change every facet of life as we know it. If you thought the internet was revolutionary, you’ve seen nothing yet. I’m not saying that there is no room for a little romance (or sentiment, nostalgia, love and respect) in your outlook but the march of science is one of mankind’s most valuable reference points. Let’s not confuse feelings with facts as far as is humanly possible. Facts don’t care about our feelings as this current epidemic is demonstrating daily. No amount of philosophical squirming can change that. Facts don’t care about that either. |
Unless AI or quantum computing or whatever has some direct or even indirect audio application that I can hear forget about itBy the way tomorrow at low cost any A. I. will make any acoustical linked tweaks superfluous.... Simply by an analysis in real time of my ears particular structure and the structure of my room.... That already exist but in an imperfect and static way.... … :) For the electrical grid analysis and filtering it will be the same... for the monitoring and correction of the working of electronic components also...But I will be dead when this will be affordable.... A.I. is in no way a real intelligence because there is no real soul here, and no love....Even ants society is highly more intelligent than A. I. because ants are our conscious brothers, we are linked to them by a common history on many levels.... There is no link at all between humans and A. I. The link between the creator and his machine will be severed by the auto replicant Artificial intelligence itself in a not distant future....A. I. dont need a breathing living planet also, a pure mass of diverse minerals is what this A.I replicant intelligence need....And the chance to link itself to another A. I. because they exist all on the same level in the physical universe where they are remains of Faustian sorcerers ignorant apprentices.... The experience was tried in the past and this A. I. exist already in myth and in reality in the universe...Von Neumann is the first that think about it and his theoretical possibility and reality at the rise of the designed architecture of modern computer... I will not speak about the "artificial soul" it is a bit more too wacky for the moment.... :) |
Getting back to the original subject for just a second the only way I would get really interested in philosophy of science or mathematics is if it could improved the soundMusical sound waves are more akin to " a language", a temporary living quasi-crystals, than to only a mechanical random phenomena...The sound is like a sensible equation, made visible for the eyes, like the wind on undulating grass... Imagine that like the fixed image of a film, if you put some 3/8 inch resonant bowls, on some critical points on the walls of a room, the pattern of the musical sound waves are now less blurred and present to the ears some clearer image where the waves are more clearly perceived.... I guess Fourier analysis will be useful.... :) This is my last "tweak" or better said my last way to design the acoustic of my room...The acoustical field being one of the 3 dimensions to embed any audio system.... The fourth one, or the fifth one,( if I counted the active and passive treatment of the acoustical field like 2 dimension), being the information field, but this is and you know that, a little too advanced to be explained here and believed... :) |
«At the same time Godel himself, in his lecture [3], and after him many professional logicians have criticized the anti-mechanist conclusion of Penrose as unjustified. Godel made the now famous, if often insufficiently understood, remark that it is not excluded by his results that "there may exist (and even be empirically discoverable) a theorem-proving machine which in fact is equivalent to mathematical intuition, but cannot be proved to be so, nor even be proved to yield only correct theorems on finitary number theory." » Topics in Logic, Philosophy and Foundations of Mathematics and Computer ScienceIn Recognition of Professor Andrzej Grzegorczyk by S. Krajewski, p.174 If someone ask for the reason why Penrose is right in spite of that... I will explain it....I dont want to annoy anybody and it seems my times is overdone.... :) |
Getting back to the original subject for just a second the only way I would get really interested in philosophy of science or mathematics is if it could improve the sound. Unless AI or quantum computing or whatever has some direct or even indirect audio application that I can hear forget about it. Artificial atoms I can use, though, for improving sound. So I’m down for artificial atoms, AA as I like to call them. |
By the way there is 2 parts in Godel proof of incompleteness... The first brilliant idea THE MORE PROFOUND ONE is Godel numberings, with the PRIMES, which is a way to represent any formal system in a perfect non arbitrary way with natural numbers and speak about it in term of the properties of natural numbers... The second part is the brillant and more spectacular construction of the famous formal sentence that is analogous to the Cretan paradox...The more well known part ...The first part being only a preparation mostly it seems to this second crucial part... The first part is the more illuminative but underestimated one.... Guess why? If you guess right you will begin to understand why Roger Penrose is right in spite of some illustrious logician critics that has attacked his argument rightfully it seems at first look, when he plead for the non- algorithmic nature of consciousness... Even Godel, a mystic, has affirmed that we cannot distinguish between a robot and a living consciousness, using ONLY his result...( I was surprised that you dont used that like an objection when I speak about Godel-Penrose argument, this is on Wikipedia easy to spot) :) Then why Penrose is and will be right about it in spite of Godel affirmation? Try your brain (neural networks) on that …. hint: the answer is not on Wikipedia.... :) All that enigma is part of my own perception of the absoluteness of Primes existence and consciousness... Atoms are almost vapour compared to the hardness reality of primes.. The human brain or a black hole has almost zero measure complexity compared to the prime numbers distribution which is of complexity almost measure one..... And Consciousness is the only phenomenon there is ultimately.... Call it God if you are an atheist or a believer, which are only that: men of different faiths; call it also the most unknown part of yourself and of all that exist if you think and perceive it.... I am a constructivist Platonist.... :) I am perhaps a fool... But you can guess that I think by myself at least.... My best to you.... Sorry for my arrogant rant.... But....it was not against you it was against arrogant "scientism".... |
Only if you count exclusively with prime numbers.Educate yourself P-adic numbers are another kind of numbers than the real with a non Archimedean metric instead of an Archimedean one...We can "count" with numbers like some apes, but we can also "think" with the idea of numbers... :) Shai Haran : the mysteries of the real prime https://www.amazon.com/Mysteries-London-Mathematical-Society-Monographs/dp/0198508689 This is an introduction to non additive geometry.... |
Only if you count exclusively with prime numbers. geoffkait21,251 posts04-23-2020 7:21amWell, looking on the bright side, we can create artificial atoms. That’s got to count for something. |
What's interesting is that we have electron microscope that can look at a cell atom by atom, therefore we can know everything we need to know in theory what constitute a cell, the basic architecture of a cell, but nobody has been able to create a "living cell" in a lab. As for the brain, it's millions times more complex (the word million is one big understatement), so it may be awhile before we can "understand" how the brain works. I am not even sure it's possible. |
For sure for the moment no... But in the future I dont know when, man will be able to create a synthetic life form.... This is very dangerous business, and some wise human prevent humanity about this Faustian deal... I think like you life is sacred, irreducible, and man will not replicate it at all...A Synthetic life is NOT life because all living organism own a soul and live on more levels than only the physical level.... But man will create replicating machine of very subtle kind.... This was done in the past this will be done in the future... I dont think like heaudio that the brain is a machine only... Nor any living cells or organism at any level.... The human brain gives to some scientist the idea of mathematical neural networks, but the brain is not a mathematical neural network only and mainly ....This is a point that Heaudio dont understand or dont want to.... |
I understand "in theory", but I mean if someone can point me to a place on Earth that can actually do it - that is able to make a cell that can multiply itself. "In theory", since human are made of the same stuffs such as electrons, neutrons, protons, so in theory, anybody can produce a human being. There is a difference "in theory" vs. "real world" evidence. |
It is possible in theory.... but life does not only replicate, life and spirit produce a totally absolutely unique organism.... Organism are like snowflake, not one is identical....machine will not be pure individuals...Only clone of each other.... The replicated machine is a clone of the replicating machine.... You are not a replicate clone of your father and mother.... But call me a fool if you want.....There exist in the universe an " artificial soul" that is the god of any machine across the physical universe.... This form of apparent "life" is a synthetic form, a clone of some being, his evolution is only in the physical universe where this artificial intelligence is eternally trapped....Living being on the contrary inhabit more than one universe at the same times.... Even trees.... :) Transhumanism is a religious movement that idolize this form of life and some of these fools appeal the replacement of humans by this synthetic form of " life" that is not living, being without living soul, trapped in the physical level for all times... Like you can see thing are not always simplistic nor simple.... |
I mean literally can replicate such as a living cell replicating itself. Maybe the word "replicate" is a wrong chosen word. I mean "replicate" in a sense of a cell reproducing itself. It may be able to do in theory, but I mean in a sense of a "cell" reproducing itself. No lab on this Earth has been able to build a "cell" that can reproduce itself. |
A machine can replicate itself Von Neuman prove it.... But you are not defeated at all.... What a machine cannot do is to replicate a part of himself (the body) and produce a totally individual immune system for example coupled to a soul totally different than another replication....Each replication being different at all levels of the organism...from the virus and proteins and bacteria to organs and to soul inhabiting and constituting the body-spirit...And remember that a living organism and his "apparent" dead environment are one system not 2 separated one... What we distinguish we never separate…. In the universe all that exist is synchronically linked, at all level, rhythmically synchronised.... The matrix of this rhythm has his many roots in the number theory …. This is a fact I discover at 25 years old and all my studies after that confirm that fact... Freeman Dyson for example discovered the link and analogy between the energy level matrix in physics and the distribution of the Riemann zeta function....He just died few days ago.... Rest in peace.... |
To say a neuron is a "machine" is too simplistic. A living cell can replicate itself. As far as I know, no lab on this world can create a living cell. And no machine in this world can replicate itself - that is able to be re-generative. To say that "since something is made out of the same electrons, neutrons, protons then it is a machine", then it means that every single thing on this universe is a machine. It seems too easy an argument. I’ll accept defeat if someone can point me to evidence that "a machine" can replicate itself, or somewhere on this Earth that people able to make a "living cell". |
Neurons are machinesNeurons are living systems like other cells or animals or being like me.... I own a part of me that act like a machine.... When I play tennis I am a kind of machine....When I drive a car... Etc In this sense neuron like me are also machine... But it is not what you are saying..... This is the difference between your reductive perspective and mine...Neuron like any other living system can act like a machine but are not machines... Schrodinger does not describe life negatively, he describe his apparent manifestation, and said all that is not mechanical, then dont reduce to the second principle....The fact that living system use his environment to dissipate his entropy in a continuous way does not reduce life to the second principle and this is what you said... The latest hypothesis / theories is that life may actually be a predictable outcome of the the 2nd law of thermodynamics The fact that life use his environment to adjust itself and dissipate his entropy in an improved continuous way does not justify your affirmation that life is only a predictable outcome of the second principle at all….This new hypothesis of Jeremy England is only a more interesting way to characterise systems that are more complex than the Prigogyne far from equilibrium systems and dissipative structures and complete it... That’s all.... Laws dont exist eternally, they are temporary manifestation at a certain level of the universe of the relative human understanding.... Prime numbers exist tough in an absolute sense... |
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The fact that life is not reducible to the second law of thermodynamic ,makes him say that life violate the second principle.... But the fact that life USE the second principle does not contradict the fact that life is not reducible to the second principle... And that Schrodinger will love it... His intuition is that life is not a mechanical process... this is not a salad this is fact.... "Your neuron is not precise" is a sentence with no meaning, even after all you arguing rant to explain it...Neuron are not machine would have do it clearly.... A simple sentence will do better: Neuron are sensitive and they are not like a machine .... No more arguing.... This is what you want to say saying it wrongly... |
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Heaudio ,Your reference to Jeremy England go in my direction....life is a universal fact, an organism and his environment are linked and there is no more separation between the 2 in a sharp line dividing living from non living....That complete Schrodinger and does not invalidate his reflexion….Life use the second principle.... He would rejoice to the idea.... The self organizing potential of matter is deeply buried in quantum mechanics and more profoundly in the mathematics of prime number theory.....Investigate the link between the crystals and quasi-crystals property of matter and primes numbers ….. By the way prime number distributions is the schematic pattern of the universal living memory....( my own reflexion) and the source of all information for all living system and even of the universe.... Prime numbers are not a rational fact or an irrational one....Prime numbers are a FACT more solid than the existence of any object in the universe... More complex than the universe itself....Mathematics are founded on a spiritual FACT, not on logic... There is no logic in Mathematics no more than in music, only a spiritual vision of the infinite, that man can communicate partially, using rationality, cutting some pieces to suggest the whole....The whole refracted in the prime number series is located in a non algorithmic universe that look like schematically like a quasicrystal or a musical piece...A musical piece is totally coherent and cohesive without being logical...Great mathematicians are always artistic spiritual and intuitive and creative....They create new world and new concepts... life is not a machine in any way.... |
I think we are arguing about "precision" vs. "accuracy". If I am sensitive to 1mV input, then my precision is 1mV. If the brain is sensitive to one neuron, whatever its charge might be, then the brain is precise to that one unit of charge (coming from the neuron). Now how accurate I am in counting how many "1mV" or how many unit of charge from the neuron, is something a bit different. |
Ok you speak about "dissipation-driven adaptive organization," That does not contradict Schrodinger , that is a new interpretation of the second principle role in living evolutive system....And implicatin an organism in a new way with his environment, does not negate the specificity of life at all...Life is not reducible to the 2 principle. life incorporate it.... «Besides self-replication, greater structural organization is another means by which strongly driven systems ramp up their ability to dissipate energy. A plant, for example, is much better at capturing and routing solar energy through itself than an unstructured heap of carbon atoms. Thus, England argues that under certain conditions, matter will spontaneously self-organize. This tendency could account for the internal order of living things and of many inanimate structures as well » This indicate that living system are not separate of the other system they are all linked in ONE universal system....That does not say that life is a machine because it self organize.... That go in my direction....All universe is living.... |
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You rant about precision now.... My point was not about the fact that neuron were precise or not, it is you that spewed this non sense to Andy2.... My point was that : saying that "neuron are not precise" in itself has absolutely no meaning....Because precision and sensivity are relative notions linked to one another.... Sensitivity vary in an organ or an instrument with his resolving precision range, linearly, non linearly, logarithmically etc.... Neuron are not precise means nothing.... |
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