For the skeptical protector of naive gullible audiophiles there’s a lot to get the blood boiling. One need look no further than $15K stereo cartridges, $125K speakers, $48K speaker cables, $12K power cords, $24K interconnects, $110K turntables, $6K power strips, tiny little bowl resonators made of pure platinum or gold, amplifiers at more than $100K, $86K DACs. What’s the retail price for the Shun Mook Mpingo record clamp these days, assuming it’s even available which I doubt? That ought be sufficient to bring on a brain aneurism in even the most world weary skeptic.
I think I've Just Seen Absolute Proof That Audiophiles Are Insanely Gullible
I didn’t want to crap on someone’s sales thread, so I thought i’d post my amazement here. The focus of my disbelief? The "Dalby D7-Vinyl Stabilizer," which is a damn weight that screws onto the turntable spindle to hold the record securely onto the platter. Listed retail? 4000 British Pounds! (although a mag listed it at $6,800! On sale here at AudioGullible for the bargain basement price of 2500 British Pounds, or $3600 US dollars!!! Just read a few snippets of the sales ad . . .
"The D7-Vinyl Stabiliser has a sonic character that brings music to life and the ability to elevate the entire audio frequency from the veil and mechanics inherent in prerecorded music. The gains are immediate, with sweeter high frequency extension while the mid and lower registers are beautifully controlled. The soundscape is wider, higher and deeper, allowing the music to breathe more naturally."
I’m sorry, but I’m calling total BS on this. A friggin’ weight brings "music to life," "sweeter high frequency extension," "allowing the music to breathe more naturally . ." Come on. Its a modified paperweight that screws onto the platter. One can only imagine what this guy thinks about some $20K interconnects for the turntable -- the music probably writes itself! And don’t forget the amazing improvement that a $4,000 carbon fiber mat might add . . . You probably would think you were hallucinating because the music breathed so much it was oozing out of the speakers, like on some of my more memorable nights in college in the ’70’s.
Now I have never heard this amazing gift to the audiophile community, so maybe it is the audio equivalent of the Second Coming, but really? $5,800 for this? It confirms to me that there is a certain insanity/gullibility/too much money/snake oil in this so-called "hobby," (which is a hobby to customers and ridiculous business for some manufacturers). When is enough enough? What about audiophile paint, that has amazing sonic qualities to cut down reflection and make the soundstage so wide that you feel you need a new apartment? Don’t forget the audiophile couch, that is sonically neutral but promises to position your ears to "bring music to life?" OK, I’ve made my point. No offense to the seller of the snake oil, but really . . . When is enough enough?
This concludes my rant for today. :)
"The D7-Vinyl Stabiliser has a sonic character that brings music to life and the ability to elevate the entire audio frequency from the veil and mechanics inherent in prerecorded music. The gains are immediate, with sweeter high frequency extension while the mid and lower registers are beautifully controlled. The soundscape is wider, higher and deeper, allowing the music to breathe more naturally."
I’m sorry, but I’m calling total BS on this. A friggin’ weight brings "music to life," "sweeter high frequency extension," "allowing the music to breathe more naturally . ." Come on. Its a modified paperweight that screws onto the platter. One can only imagine what this guy thinks about some $20K interconnects for the turntable -- the music probably writes itself! And don’t forget the amazing improvement that a $4,000 carbon fiber mat might add . . . You probably would think you were hallucinating because the music breathed so much it was oozing out of the speakers, like on some of my more memorable nights in college in the ’70’s.
Now I have never heard this amazing gift to the audiophile community, so maybe it is the audio equivalent of the Second Coming, but really? $5,800 for this? It confirms to me that there is a certain insanity/gullibility/too much money/snake oil in this so-called "hobby," (which is a hobby to customers and ridiculous business for some manufacturers). When is enough enough? What about audiophile paint, that has amazing sonic qualities to cut down reflection and make the soundstage so wide that you feel you need a new apartment? Don’t forget the audiophile couch, that is sonically neutral but promises to position your ears to "bring music to life?" OK, I’ve made my point. No offense to the seller of the snake oil, but really . . . When is enough enough?
This concludes my rant for today. :)
132 responses Add your response
@agear , I peruse AudioGon all the time. I am always surprised at some the enormously priced cables, interconnects and equipment. However, I do know that cables sound different, and equipment sounds different -- maybe not $20K better than a $1K cable, but who knows. But sometimes, claims are made which literally leap out at me and cry for comment because of the claims vs. cost vs the product. If the Dalby was $700 or $1000, I wouldn't have blinked. But $5600 US for a record clamp with the overblown claims in the ad . . . As I said before, enough is enough. I'm not sure if you were joking about friends having them and "swearing by them," but it again proves my point that once you're committed to a purchase, it becomes fabulous and you buy into the claims. But in a double-blind test . .. Highly different result, I suspect. I have audio buddies with top drawer systems who have earnestly fiddled with various clamps and found this one to be the best. There is hyperbole attached to a lot of audio products, threads, etc. That is nothing new. You did not answer my questions. System? Any vignettes of gullibility or are you some transcendent audio being who makes no mistakes? |
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@geoffkait , "Something tells me the only ones who are hot to trot to conduct double blind tests are the ones who’ve already made their minds up, you know, the died in wool skeptics. Skeptics claim these outlandish audiophile gadgets can’t pass a double blind test but never do you see a skeptic actually conduct a double blind test. What’s up with that? Isn't that putting the cart before the goat?" I disagree and agree. I disagree that the only ones advocating double-blind tests are ones who've already made up their minds. Although in this particular situation, I definitely have some preconceived notions, I would love to do a double-blind test, because the whole point is to come up with a result uncolored by expectations. However, I agree with you that it makes no sense for a reviewer not to conduct a double-blind test. If you have access to a $5600 record clamp, there is no reason not to test it against, for example, my MMF Music Hall record clamp, unless you want to make exaggerated claims unhampered by reality. I would willingly do such a test if I had a Dalby. In fact I have done double-blind tests with speaker cables, interconnects, power amps and preamps, and the results have been very interesting. I see no reason why people would resist that kind of test and I think it should be part of every reviewer's repertoire. I saw an interesting ad today for a $25,800 (new) preamplifier. The ad stated "We have compared it to many that are far more expensive" and it "always wins." First, how many preamps are "far more expensive" than $25,800, and how did they judge which one "won." I'm not saying that the preamp isn't the best preamp since the invention of the transistor, but how about an objective study before proclaiming that it "always wins." That is putting the cart before the goat, I think . . . :) |
"I remember buying a heavy plastic screw-on record clamp from Allied Radio, before it was bought by Radio Shack. It cost $2, and it worked. Apparently, if Allied charged the right amount back then, they would still be in business." "It works" is not exactly what audiophiles have in mind. "It works great!" is what they have in mind. A stock fuse works. An aftermarket fuse works great! A Radio Shack cable works. An audiophile cable works great. Well, ideally. Lol A bicycle inner tube or tennis balls works. A Vibraplane works great! |
Moto man wrote, "@geoffkait , I respectfully disagree. It’s not extrapolating one data point, which even then is subjective. It is discarding all of the nonsense reviews by "reviewers" and owners, and rely on tests that cannot be colored by preconceived expectations. I am not saying that all participants in a double-blind listen will have the same conclusion, but they should. So to me its not throwing out all of the other data as much as recognizing that some reviewer raving about how a record clamp makes all the difference in the world is BS. This data points should be discarded. Now, in a double-blind study, someone legitimately reached the same result, don’t you agree that that would have significantly more validity? Plus, the witches’ dunking chairs were supposed to be objectively verifiable tests. You float, you’re a witch. You sink, their bad. . . guess you weren’t a witch! Based on a faulty premise, sure, but still objectively verifiable. :)" Something tells me the only ones who are hot to trot to conduct double blind tests are the ones who’ve already made their minds up, you know, the died in wool skeptics. Skeptics claim these outlandish audiophile gadgets can’t pass a double blind test but never do you see a skeptic actually conduct a double blind test. What’s up with that? Isn't that putting the cart before the goat? Cheerios |
So many questions, so little time, LOL! @tostadosunidos , I sense a DSOTM fan .. . . :) The "holy grail" of DSOTM refers to the 1983 Japanese 1st pressing of DSOTM (matrix CP35-3017 on the CD itself) and also referred to as the "Black Triangle" version. It was the first CD pressing of DSOTM from the master and is not only very rare (in real CD form) but reputed to be the best sounding recording. However, as I indicated above, In the Steve Hoffman music forum, you can see the blind listening clips and results. The differences are not huge between the many versions, but I preferred the Sony Mastersound version. PM me if you want a copy. @geoffkait , I respectfully disagree. It's not extrapolating one data point, which even then is subjective. It is discarding all of the nonsense reviews by "reviewers" and owners, and rely on tests that cannot be colored by preconceived expectations. I am not saying that all participants in a double-blind listen will have the same conclusion, but they should. So to me its not throwing out all of the other data as much as recognizing that some reviewer raving about how a record clamp makes all the difference in the world is BS. This data points should be discarded. Now, in a double-blind study, someone legitimately reached the same result, don't you agree that that would have significantly more validity? Plus, the witches' dunking chairs were supposed to be objectively verifiable tests. You float, you're a witch. You sink, their bad. . . guess you weren't a witch! Based on a faulty premise, sure, but still objectively verifiable. :) @agear , I peruse AudioGon all the time. I am always surprised at some the enormously priced cables, interconnects and equipment. However, I do know that cables sound different, and equipment sounds different -- maybe not $20K better than a $1K cable, but who knows. But sometimes, claims are made which literally leap out at me and cry for comment because of the claims vs. cost vs the product. If the Dalby was $700 or $1000, I wouldn't have blinked. But $5600 US for a record clamp with the overblown claims in the ad . . . As I said before, enough is enough. I'm not sure if you were joking about friends having them and "swearing by them," but it again proves my point that once you're committed to a purchase, it becomes fabulous and you buy into the claims. But in a double-blind test . .. Highly different result, I suspect. @magnum44 , LOL! I have all of my LPs digitized and on a server. My LP's are in storage, for that day when first editions of various LP's in mint condition become too valuable to not sell! Not on point for this snake oil thread, but I wonder if you take a high quality rig, put an LP on and digitize it into a lossless format, shouldn't the "warm analog sound" be captured into the digital file? |
Moto, why did it take the Dalby piece for you you to have this revelation about "high end" audio? Depending on your perspective, there are endless examples of tomfoolery. BTW, I have friends who own this clamp after fiddling with many others and swear by it. They are all vinyl nuts and have uber $$$ systems as expected. Moto, what does your system consist of and what personal examples of tomfoolery can you share? |
Whaooooo! Great reading thread--re the Dalbly D7 I know someone with TWO of them--yes seriously observed personally in situ and Horrors!--I own the Shun Mook Clamp and --I admit (snivelling on knees pleading for mercy!!) the TICE CLOCK!!! So I'm next in line for the Crucifixion? -Do you realise how long it takes to die on the cross? The last quote from the 6K restoration of Spartacus I watched last night where an overly coiffured Kirk D is tying to kill Tony C Great Movie superbly restored 2015 version with Alex N score re -recorded highly recommended No snake oil --but lots of body oil-- Sorry Normal Transmission to resume Des |
Moto man, what's next witches' dunking chairs? But seriously, any double blind test, controlled test, A/B test, whatever is only one data point. You cannot extrapolate one data point. If in fact most of the tests reveal the device actually works you just throw out all the negative results. They're only outliers. Follow? |
@geoffkait , you are not suggesting that a double-blind study, which is the gold standard of valid research, would not be appropriate to expose the charlatans, are you? The placebo effect and the power of expectation are both powerful factors when dealing with subjective things like the way something sounds. It would be the easiest and most reliable way to expose real nonsense like the Dalby D7 compared to my Music Hall record clamp if the listener could not know which one he was listening to. On a minor scale, I have seen this in action myself. I love Pink Floyd's Dark Side of The Moon. There are several versions of it out, from the original "holy grail" in 1983 to the Sony Gold Mastersound, to the remaster to the 2011 remix. One enterprising fellow posted cuts from each, identified only by A-F. I figured that I would likely go for the brand new remix or the Holy Grail. Nope. Not knowing which was which, I though that the Sony Mastermind was the best. Surprised at the results, and now knowing which letter corresponded to which clip, Guess what? The 2011 remaster sounded the best. Goes to show that the double-blind is the benchmark of exposing charlatan claims. And I'm willing to bet that the overblown nonsensical claims made by the seller of the Dalby D7 will be exposed for the BS I believe them to be. |
As the old saying goes, "If something seems to be too good to be true, it probably is". I try to keep that in mind while examining tweak products. And I also have doubt if their explanation has no basis in science. Many products have dubious "owner's reviews" of their greatness, and offer no reason why it works. Then there are things that do work, and better ones do cost more. Until suddenly the price has just gone stratospheric, in those cases I am reminded that a Timex is a very accurate time piece, but a Rolex cost 1000 times more, and doesn't keep time as well. But, it's a status symbol and is real pretty to look at. No one argues that the Rolex isn't a good clock. Back in 1986 I bought a Monster record clamp, it was $35, I had my doubts but I bought it! And it worked! Nothing revolutionary but it did help tighten up the bass. Last year I see the exact same record clamp, I mean exactly the same, selling for $300. Has inflation gone up that much since 1986? If so I really need a cost of living increase! |
The solution to this question is the easiest part of putting together a musical system. Keep an open mind and try devices, tweaks, etc. with money back guarantees and YOU decide what is worth the money and what is not with only shipping costs at risk. A device that someone mocks (without even having heard it) might be just the thing that makes your stereo sing. |
What is this Tice Clock that people have referred to?It was a $30 or so Radio Shack LED-based digital clock, that was allegedly subjected to some sort of "processing" that would allegedly enable it to improve the "coherence" of electrons in the AC current powering an audio system plugged in nearby. If I recall correctly, it was on the market in the 1980’s and/or 1990’s and sold for a bit under $300. Here is an article on it written by Dr. Robert E. Greene, a long-time writer for "The Absolute Sound." My own take on it: I suppose it’s conceivable that a digital clock could inject sufficient digital noise/garbage into the AC wiring to have perceivable sonic consequences on some systems plugged into a nearby outlet. And that some may have perceived those consequences as being "better." I wonder if anyone who may have claimed to have heard positive results from one of these things ever went to the trouble of doing a thorough and honest comparison between the effects of the Tice Clock and the effects the $30 Radio Shack version may have had under the same circumstances. Regards, -- Al |
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GON is not a policeman of crazy stuff on here. But It just galls me that anyone would fall for this type of exaggerated tweak on such ridiculous claims. I would hope that people on here, even the $10K cable people, get some common sense on this type of nonsense. What is this Tice Clock that people have referred to? Not familiar with that load of do-do . .. |
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@mapman, I'm not sure that we'll ever be able to sort out all of the nonsense. The reason is simple -- I and most people don't have access to some of the egregious snake oil like the $5800 (new) Dalby D7 to be able to run it through a double-blind test. I can only say that logically, the claims are seriously overblown to justify a ridiculously expensive product. |
mapman That's why I feel happy(or even orgasm) when able to 'bend over' the insurance company for my own benefit because any kind of sex(intercourse) is much better and makes more sense when mutual :-) |
Marketers do what marketers do and get played to do. Almost always involves a spin of some sort, never the complete story. I agree its wrong but what’s one to do except learn to take all marketing claims with a few grains of salt. I’ve worked in product development and worked with marketers. They are usually not as technically savvy as the engineers. If there are no real engineers involved to start with, then the result may be total nonsense that many actually believe. Good engineers are expensive. Its a lot easier to make a profit of nonsense sometimes. Lower overhead and higher profit margins. Nobody forces anyone to buy anything (except insurance maybe). |
@czarivey , I live in South Beach, sometimes shop at that Epicure, and you're right about some of those prices .. . unbelievable! @mapman , your comments about gullibility and good value are certainly true. What I object to are the ridiculous marketing claims made to justify outlandish prices and are targeted to the audiophile. Like I said, if someone wants a diamond-encrusted record clamp, power to 'em. But don't claim that the diamonds resonate at a special frequency that cancels out the negative electrons emanating from the cartridge, which makes the music sound like its being played in the living room. If we didn't gobble up those types of marketing hypes, they probably wouldn't be made. But you can only sell snake oil with silly claims, or else no one would buy it, I'd bet that in a true double-blind study, where the reviewer cannot see whether a regular record clamp is being used or the Dalby D7, he wouldn't be able to tell the difference. |
Yes some people are gullible and some are not. Some are Audiophiles. Some products offer good value and some not. Some are expensive and some not. Move on people.....there’s nothing new to see here.... I personally would not buy A $3600 record stabilizer but I’m sure others would. I’d rather invest that money in the best ultrasonic record cleaner I could find, if I were to invest that much in my records. But that’s just me. I’m sure some all have only perfectly clean records and now need a better stabilizer. Sheesh. |
I once had been in Epicure grocery "ultra natural and organic and super duper healthy yadadada" store in South Beach where one apple as an example would worth about $10(looked kinda shiny and covered with glaze) and a bar of soap $250. In my past days I was a servant and chauffeur for very rich family that occasionally was sending me for shopping in Epicure he..he... There are lots of interesting ways to earn money on gullible indeed! Than I went to family owned grocery store in Northern Jersey up in the mountains close to Milford PA where 2lb bag of apples was $3. They tasted substantially better and did not have any glaze on'em. $3 and $100 is the same for upper class with over few$M of annual profits so the prices are marked accordingly. The point is that there's the same or even better quality among affordable units. Just do your own research and learn. |
The existence of snake oil, and those gullible enough to believe it, are directly related. If no one were gullible enough to buy into it, then there would be no such products. I think I saw the plug strip advertised on The Cable Company's web site. My question is, what proof is there that the $6 plug strip you bought was ever cryogenically frozen? I guess the proof is in the listening! Anyone remember the Tice Clock? I forget which magazine reviewer it was that argued that as long as you BELIEVE it has made a difference in the sound then it was worth the money. |
I actually started this thread marveling at the combination of the audacity of the claims made by the people selling the snake oil, coupled with the gullibility of those willing to accept those claims and actually buy something based on them! I haven't heard of the magical cryogenically frozen power strip -- which of course sounds so darn amazing, you'd think you were listening to a completely new sound system. I'm sure its backed by all kinds of glowing reviews about how the freezing process realigns the molecules in one direction which of course facilitates a more pure transmission of power. I may look into that for next week's Scam of the Week, LOL! |
"No one will argue the virtues of a good record clamp or weight. But, how much technology can one cram into a good record weight? There is nothing on earth that could justify the asking price. One could look up a local machinist and have him make you one that looked identical, send it to a plating shop for a real gold plating, and probably have it all done for under $300. So just because someone is wealthy enough to purchase such an item, doesn't make him any less foolish for buying into the hype. But whether nor not its snake oil is not the issue that was raised by the OP. That's a completely different issue from whether audiophiles are gullible or not. |
I’ll bet the Stillpoint folks are jealous! It is certainly a beautiful piece of audio jewelry for the most discerning audiophile. Love those ebony bullets, too bad you can’t see them. As far as nothing justifies the price. One could say the same thing about many audio products including some of the absurd prices for amplifiers or speakers or name it. What justifies the price is that folks that don't care about nor are influenced by price can readily write a check for whatever reason. It's not a bad business model in today's world. |
