I need your help. I have an ARC Ref 3, ARC 110, Vandersteen 5As, but no turntable.
I am looking for suggestions for phono amp, turntable, arm and cartridge to match my existing system. The ARC110 does not have a phono, so I am stuck as to what will pair best. Thanks for your thoughts. JMW
FWIW, if you have the old idler, it can be rebuilt by Russell Industries on the east coast: http://russellind.com/downl.htm The PRB catalog is the old Projector Recorder Belt company that was located in Whitewater Wisconsin prior to Russell Ind. buying them out. Their work is excellent BTW; I've had them rebuild idlers and pro audio tape recorder pinch rollers a number of times. You need a lot of precision with 1" wide pinch rollers!
Just so you know, for what little it is worth, I have decided that compared to my Thorens TD124 fully modded and revived by Greg of ClassicThorens/STS mated with a 12" Reed 3P arm, my VPI Prime just does not cut it. That is despite having a pro come out to my house to see if he could do something to coax magic out of it that I could not and despite using a periphery ring, Phoenix Engineering Falcon and Roadrunner, US cleaning of records (which is overrated), etc. Now I must emphasize-the VPI Prime is a very good table. It makes lovely music. But there is more "there there", more blackness, more dynamics, more thrust, more bass (particularly more bass in fact) with the Thorens/Reed combo. I have about four times as much money into the Thorens/Reed too. And in case someone wants to know-yes-I have tried 5-6 very well regarded cartridges with my Prime. So consistent with my very first post in this thread-it may be highly personal, but I don't like unipivots. I also prefer idler to belt drive. So I have put my Prime up for sale and I bought a new Reed 3P for my second deck-to-be, this time a 10.5. Then I came down to which deck to mate the new arm with and for me it came down to two. The Gem Dandy Polytable Super 12 or another vintage idler. I came very close to pulling the trigger on the Gem Dandy, particularly when George Merrill promptly responded to my questions and offered to personally mount my Reed 3P. But, a rare Garrard 301 came my way-one that is virtually NOS, grease bearing, and rare ivory colored. Since it is to be a second deck and I don't need two top-end decks, I was thinking I ought to be sensible and save $2000-2500 and just buy the Polytable Super 12. I had my imaginary frugal alter-ego perched on one shoulder and my spendthrift alter ego perched on my other. My neck was getting sore listening to them argue. But that Garrard kept calling my name and the guy I purchased the Reed from (who is biased being an avowed Garrard fanatic) helped me decide to go with the Garrard. My point being that my recommendation is truly mine. Here is a neat little factoid-Sleeve City-fwiw-only sells one turntable. It is the $1800 Gem Dandy Polytable. https://www.sleevecityusa.com/GEM-Dandy-PolyTable-p/gem-polytt.htm
I have and recommend the Amadeus turntable. I use it with Dynavector 20 low output moving coil. The sound is great-dead quiet. I use a Luxman E1 phono preamp (you can find this used for 1K) This combination sounds great. I won't be making any changes in the foreseeable future.
certainly a super phono pre .... there is a really nice Basis with Rega arm for $2k on the gon right now....I can attest that arm is great w Lyra Delos.... leaves you $$$$ for cables, etc....
If you're going the TT route, keep in mind that having a clean record is just as important as anything else. And I do agree that having everything in balance matters. The real question is whether you want vinyl to be your "serious" source material or is its just about having a table for occasional. If it's occasional, I'd suggest getting a higher end table/arm/cartridge combination like that from clear audio (a concept for example with the MC cart, or the Performance) so that you don't have to mess with a set up that itself can be frustrating. Also, there are lots of very good ~~$1000 phono preamps out their (Musical Surrounds for example). But with your ARC gear (I have a Ref 2 phono and Ref 5 pre-amp), and you want a table set up to match the capabilities of your gear, your going to have to spend some money. And at that stage, getting a ultrasonic LP cleaner is really a necessity.
So far by way of f/u I have decided to go with Manley Steelhead Cinook...Thanks to fsonicsmith for the recommendation! Still sorting out the TT et al. Not a fan of Merrill’s 101.3 from a visual standpoint so any more recommendations greatly appreciated. BTW I am having a great time researching everyone’s recommendations. Thanks again
Hi jaym759, My suggestion is don't buy expensive turntable mine am using audio technica without built in preamp.you can use ortofon cartridge and use separate tube phono preamp and tube preamplifier ,you can have good sounds quality in your system.
What @rauliruegas is trying to describe has been worked out over 50 years ago and has been generally a non-factor for the last 49 years. Any decent phono stage will handle RIAA EQ with aplomb.
And the phono circuit is all about good design and refinement. There is no such thing as a single all-encompassing constant such as @rauliruegas claims in his financial self-interest of solid state over tubes. It’s ALL about circuit design and refinement.
Dear @inna : IC cables always are important but if you look deeper ask you: where the cartridge signal can " suffer " the highest degradation and develops higher distortions?
Obviously that at each system link from the very first time the stylus tip hits the very first LP groove but I think that's inside the phonolinepremp where the dmage can goes in an " exponential " faster way because is here where the cartridge signal have to travel in a extremely " tortuose " road with to many different stages: different gain stages from the input, the " terrible " very high levels equalization stage through the inverse RIAA eq, it's in the phono stage where the signal pass through several passive and active devices that degrades its quality levels and it's there where has to deal with generated resistance/impedance/capacitance and even inductance as with parasitic distortions and " errors " in the phonolinepreamp design.
Every system audio link is important and for the cartridge signal the phono stage is its LIFE.
You can have the best cartridge with the best IC cables and best tonearm/TT set up but if that signal goes inside a not decent phonolinepreamp everything goes to the trash.
One more thing. Tonearm cable. It is the most important cable in the
chain, again don't save on it and don't rush with the choice.
If you run balanced, then the cable will impose far less artifact. I agree its the most important cable in the system. You get that bit wrong, the best amps and speakers can't fix it.
Again muchas gracias to Everyone My excitement is gaining by each response. To answer on my budget I was hoping to bring it in at around 10-12k for TT, arm, cartridge and phono
You can call Rick at Audio Alternative, Ft. Collins, CO. He has several!!! thousand LP's at his store along with many, many turntables and I am sure he knows a thing or two about them. Have a great day.
We all know the 1200g is a great turntable. I must say that the VPI scout with acrylic platter is an insane bargain. I went and put my Lyra Delos on it and though it is not as revealing as a 1200g, it does have a very nice analog sound. The Lyra Delos seems to be the right weight and compliance for the JMW 9. Is it a 1200g, no but i am having fun listening to it.
Ralph, I hope you are wrong about your turntable's imminent defeat. Don't surrender easily. It is difficult to choose a turntable, difficult to audition in the same or at least similar system. Difficult to advise too, that's why I didn't really. The idea of having both belt drive and direct drive turntables appeals to me. At least the OP should I think listen to that Technics and a few belt drive tables. The choice might also depend on the kind of music he mostly listens to. DO NOT save couple of thousands on turntable, or even more, if you do you might spoil everything.
"
Vinyl is a long journey................................................................
As inna indicated, Vinyl is about Flavor. Take your time finding the combination...""
yes a very long learning journey. Try to listen as many you can room/audio systems at home places of other audiophiles that is a different listening experience than through an audio distributor show room.
At the same time try to attend as many live events you can especially acoustic/non-amplifiyed MUSIC.
jperry, fsonicsmith and Ralph have provided excellent advice. bpoetti keeps hammering the Herron phonostage home as the best on the planet (get Real) , roberjerman, his suggestions are Lame. The Hana SL is a good cartridge But the mounting requires screws and nuts, the mounting holes are not threaded. Even an Expert will appreciate a cartridge with threaded mounting holes. Raul, take his advice with a Large grain of salt,enough said here.
We don't know your budget. Give us a number.
I still own my Linn LP12 for 30 years. I bought a Kuzma at Axpona in 2016 even after hearing a Technica SL1200G and knowing that I wanted one with a better tonearm on it.
My final rigs will be the Kuzma and the modded (by Ralph) Technics SL1200G.
There are many fine TTs available, (new and used) I think everyone should have two TTs. Belt drive and Direct drive.
The Technics SL1200G and SL1200 GR are the best values and performance in new TTs right now. Technics does not make mistakes. Either of these TTs will provide value and performance for years while you build a record collection and decide whether you want to pursue Vinyl. They are a good place to start your analog journey.
Use Your Ears! Vinyl is a long journey. The used record stores have been picked clean by guys like me, since CD was introduced and people were dumping their Vinyl collections. You almost need to buy new and new reissues Or pay high prices for collector vinyl. Or wait for guys like me to pass and hope that you can score Big Time from my wife.
As inna indicated, Vinyl is about Flavor. Take your time finding the combination of flavors that you like. Get auditions, even if you need to pay for shipping and return of phonostages. Or travel to dealers and attend shows.
Recommendations to start you off.
One of the Technics TTs - They come with a good tonearm. ARC phono for compatibility I like Lyra cartridges; Last the longest IMO I am becoming quite fond of my Dynavector cartridge
Use Your Ears. Take Your Time. Best on Your Journey.
@bpoletti : "" You are EXTREMELY BIASED toward SS... "", agree and I’m biased because from some years now is the only real/true alternative to achieve the targets I posted here. Period.
" and have deep financial interests in the products you promote. "
that is totally untrue and a lie. I promote or have for sale nothing of my electronics or similar items. So, I have not any financial interests other than fulfill my home room/system targets that can honor the MUSIC needs. ThAt’s all. Got it?
Instead trying to attack me and only for a " change/fun " why don’t post a true contribution for all of us can improve our today system quality level performance by wide margin?
Ralph always says direct drive Technics, that's his preference, which is fine.
We've been making a belt drive machine for about 20 years. It is very neutral but the Technics is less expensive and I think its a better machine and even includes a tone arm! I make money on the sales of our turntable, but I don't think I'll be selling any since the advent of the new Technics.
Pear Audio turntables/tonearms deserve consideration as well. Point is that turntables of the same level do not sound identical at all. We all have preferences. Judging by your choice of speakers and electronics, your taste is not far from mine. I prefer Nottingham/Pear Audio to colder sounding even if slightly higher resolving turntables, in other words on warmer and a little darker side of neutral. All good British tables are dynamic enough.
This is fantastic, getting so much info. While I am finding fsonicsmith particularly helpful, all responses are greatly appreciated and helpful...I have a lot to learn but this discussion is increasing my appetite for making choices that will hopefully enhance my listening pleasure. Again thanks to All of you and more info is invaluable to me.
Dear @fsonicsmith : I know all what you posted but that's not exactly my point.
We can't do nothing about the overall recording proccess.
Where can we mantain any kind of distortions at minimum? only at room/system playback proccess and to mantain distortions at minimum we have to learn all those points I posted .
This is my target: m achieve it then I will be nearer to the recording.
Easy to say and very complex to achieve that target. Name of the game here?: just knowledge level at two different " stages " MUSIC ( live music. ) and reproduced sound additional we have to have the rigth developed skills to do it.
The learning proccess is and takes a long long time ( years. ) and that proccess is the key the true key for we can be nearer to the recording.
Several gentlemans in this and in other internet forums are " against " my posts and try even to hit me because all of them just can't understand where resides where is the foundation true and real foundation of my posts and can't understand it because my targets and learning proccess is way diofferent from the ones they have.
Many of them think that are music lovers and audiophiles but many of them unknow how live instruments ( solo or in an orchestra. ) performs at near seat position ( 2-3m. ).
The words used for audiophuiles as: soundstage, lush, softness, inner detal, laywering, deep and the like just does not exist in a live event with any kind of instruments or orchestras. MUSUIC performs in way different mode but things are that normally recording microphones positions are at near field not at 25m-40m.
All my audio item evaluations are made it at near field seat position in my room/audio system and if necessary through headphones too.
bpolleti said I'm against tube technology when in reality I'm not per sé. Things are that I'm in favor of MUSIC and tubes is for tube lovers but not for true MUSIC lovers and certainly not for MUSIC sound reproduction in any room/audio system.
All the arguments that a tube lover think he has are totally wrong because has no true/real foundation on those targets I mentioned. In reality they like that hardware but not real MUSIC.
Sooner or latter some of them will learn ( as I did it. ) or maybe never. I don't care about because is not my problem it's not me whom has to live for ever in the " mistake ".
Why then things seems for every one that I really care on tubes?: because what I care about in the same manner that all those tube lovers spread their mistakes I just tell them not only that all ( including reviewers, distributors and manufacturers of that technology. ) is that them are totally wrong but I tell them why are wrong. Tube technology goes always against MUSIC in the worst manner we can think in the playback overall proccess in any home room/audio system.
Problem with them is that always tell the one is wrong is me but never ever explain with precision why I'm wrong. Till today no where internet no one proved I'm wrong. I really wish many gentlemans can do it because I always said and say: every single day is a learning day.
No, I'm not biased through SS technology. I repeat: I'm biased in favor always to the MUSIC and from some years now things are that well designed full SS electronics is the only true way to go to honor the MUSIC that's an ART.
Normally audio distributors, manufacturers and even reviewers are moved by $$$$$$ and how to takes the higher they can from us customers.
In the other side what moves to us customers and true audiophiles: only our whole knowledge levels and ignorance levels that we all have.
Here goes @rauliruegas, again. Trying to write a classic novel in every comment. And still in full denial that tubes work as well or better than solid state for phono stages. Poor fellow. Keeps getting his financial interests above reality.
If I remember right, Fremer has Ypsilon tube phono stage, his favorite phono stage. Unless this has changed. Yeah, that Continuum must be something, but he compared the Technics with other tables too.
Raul, my friend, you seem to forget that their is distortion introduced by every microphone known to mankind, but every piece of the recording chain, by every piece of the playback chain, by every amplifier in particular) known to mankind, by every tonearm and phono cartridge known to mankind, by every loudspeaker known to mankind. Even the concept of recording and playing back in stereo rather than mono introduces distortion. My point is to play the system and play the room. Does a solo female singer sound true to size, tone, timbre, and organic or does she sound like a bad hologram? Does piano sound suitably plunky, woody, and with tinkle or does it sound artificial? These are good starting points.
Dear @fsonicsmith : ""
music and not distortions" is divorced from reality. There is no getting away from distortion. """
agree, we can't avoid several kind of room/system distortions. The target is: first learn to identify what is distortion from the signal we are listening it this is: what in reality is not part of the audio recorded signal but developed distortions. Second how to avoid the development of those distortions or at least to put at minimum through room/system changes but before this " actions " we need to identify where is the source of those different kind of distortions.
Mny times trying to eliminte kind of distortion the chnges we did it strts to develps nother kind of distortion . The issue here is that always exist trade-offs and we have to decide wich trade-off makes less harm to the music signal.
Dear @inna : MF compares that " entry level " TT with the stock tonearms against its full Continnum extremely epensive TT and tonearm and everything. Only this analog rig has a price higher than many of our whole udio system ! ! !.
If you have no Lp's now, why go into analog, the learning curve is very slow.
IMO just stick with digital.
The vinyl-deny-ers just don't get it. It's not about convenience or practicality. It's about getting involved. You have to hunt for good records and when you find them, you can touch them and see them and store them tangibly. The turntable is a simple mechanical device that you can touch, adjust, and understand. All of this goes away with digital.
Back on topic, the OP ought to understand that turntables, phono stages, and cartridges all have flavors. So does the wiring in the tonearm and the phono cable from tonearm to phono stage if applicable (my Reed 3P has one continuous cable from cartridge pins to phono stage-the way all tonearms ought to be :-) ) OP-my suggestion of Gem Dandy Polytable with Jelco arm, Chinook phono stage, and Denon D103R will render rich tone like a Rembrandt painting. Many vinyl rigs that aim for retrieving detail are just not particularly euphonic or fun to listen to. I very much appreciate Raul's affirmation of my gear recommendation but his tagline of "play music and not distortions" is divorced from reality. There is no getting away from distortion. It must be instead accommodated in your favor. If you ignore every other thing I say, fine, but please don't ignore my suggestion that your first new table needs to have an arm that can be easily adjusted in the real world by which I mean on your equipment rack without the necessity of removing it to some laboratory type setting ;- ) The purpose of having a pro set up your table the first time is so that you can hear first-hand how good your deck can sound providing you a reference point but you don't want to end up being in a position where you are helpless without the pro each time your deck no longer sounds up to par. Go Into this with eyes wide open that set and forget does not apply to vinyl. The suspension that holds the cantilever in placer changes with time. You need to be able to detect it and adjust accordingly. If that is not satisfactory, than the quote above does apply validly to you.
Dear @last_lemming @jaym759: Other gentleman mentioned Ayre phono stage and I can add SimsAudio but you mentioned Parasound JC3 ( all these 3 manufacturer designs are SS units and better than any tube unit no matter what. ). and posted:
"""
No a super high end name but there’s a lot to the unit. ""
well the JC in the model are the designer name ( all the Parasound/Halo units are designe by him. ) letters that's no one less that the great John Curl a true hystorical icon in the audio industry from many years. Here we can read about:
in those times this one was my dream for a phonolinepreamp but I never had the kind of money to buy it but I had the rare opportunity to listen this 3 chasis JC top design that as his Vendetta and his BlowTorch designs outperforms any today tube units and many today top and very expensive SS designs:
So you have a unit with a " super high end design ", nothing less. Of course Parasound builded at a price point parts.
Btw, this is the audio system that Michael Fremer used in those times and we can see tubes everywhere on it as almost every famous reviewers of the time:
"""
Sidebar: Michael Fremer's Associated Equipment
LP Source: VPI TNT Mk.3 turntable; Transfiguration Temper, Lyra Parnassus DC, AudioQuest Fe5, Grado Reference, Goldring Excel phono cartridges. Preamplifiers: Audible Illusions Modulus 3A, Ayre K-3. Power Amplifiers: VTL MB 450, Adcom GFA-5802, Conrad-Johnson Premier Twelve. Loudspeakers: Audio Physic Virgo, Aerial Model 8, Sonus Faber Grand Piano; Audio Physic Terra subwoofer. Cables: Yamamura Millennium 6000, Cardas Golden Heart, Yamamura Quantum, Electra-Glide AC cord. Accessories: VibraPlane, Symposium Acoustics, and Bright Star Audio Little Rock platforms; A.R.T. "Q" dampers, D.J. Kasser Black Diamond Racing cones, Walker Audio Valid Points, Yamamura Millennium bearing speaker supports, Shakti Stones.—Michael Fremer """
the Ayre/Adcom there were under review.
From some years now he mainly uses SS electronics, he learned. Obviously that he is a very well regarded reviewer and made and makes reviews on everything of technologies including tubes but the electronics he bougth and are the main ones comes from Dartzeel full SS designs.
Look at this music lover and audiophile audio system he owns. Can you see any tube down there?. Of course not because MUSIC deserves the best for it be honored:
Dear @inna : That new Technics is so good that MF mounted on it nothing less that the Lyra Etna SL ! ! and he likes it. That tonearm is very good one but the Jelco is very good too and both very well damped nand with a " natural " options to mate with any cartridge.
We don't know why go and I don't think that's our business unless asked for this specific advice. But if one goes and has the funds - don't save a few thousands on equipment and records. Original pressings in good condition are often not inexpensive, classical is usually less.
Ralph always says direct drive Technics, that's his preference, which is fine. But there are other turntables, you must audition. Simon Yorke, SME and Nottingham are worth listening to. Or maybe you can get Walker, we don't know. Generally speaking, spend at least twice as much on phono stage than on cartridge.
Don't deny yourself the beautiful sonics available from great LPs on a well set up rig. You mentioned earlier that you would have a local expert set up the table. Absolutely!! Much more important than the analog gear you buy is the expert set up of that rig. It's all about the correct geometry between the LP and the cartridge! Best.
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