I'm putting to rest worrying about sibilance

Ha! That's nothing. You should see some of the other guys' rigs. We've been at this a long time, so yeah, it can become a bit of an obsession. While my gear is a little esoteric, it didn't set me back that much and was built up over the years. I will say though that it sounds pretty good.

Do you plan to finish that basement area eventually? My junk is in my basement as well, but mine is finished and furnished etc....and yes I bet it sounds pretty darn good! 

Actually, no. It sounds good. Junk's in the attic. I was going to build a music room addition but decided against it as I like that the basement is silent and free of vibration.

Ah I got it. Yes I do not see how there would any vibrations there for sure. I like my stuff in basement for same reasons, no footfalls and the wall my turntable is mounted to is concrete, so zero vibrations. There is carpet down there as well as a very large sectional with toss pillows, blankets etc...so a good mix of absorption and reflection etc....walls are all dry walled, as well as ceiling. 

When ever I encounter a sibilant record I switch to my digital 3K -3 db notch filter curve and it goes right away at the expense of a little "presence." Problem solved.

I’m using very good stuff as it is....not about to spend any more money....I think I’ll just deal with it. I’m not in the camp of mortgaging my house to buy audio equipment lol. My amp is 3 grand, my phono amp is 700, yes the speakers are only 500 but imo very nice ( mind you I also have harbeths @ 2200 & spendors @ 1600.). And my cables were not cheap either. My turntables cost 1500 × 2 (project and music hall mmf7, no slouch) and 1200 for the thorens....so yea I think I spent enough. This does not even include all the cartridges i own and headphones and associated amp(s) and dac and sacd player, and cassette decks etc etc etc, oh and media ......cd...lp....cassettes etc. I mean how much more can ya spend before your wife begins scratching her head and then says well weren’t we supposed to take kids to Disney? Lol.....the sibilance is there and is embedded in the grooves. There is no way of getting rid of it period. I’ll send any one of you my Louis prima record on me and u will see what I mean...it is atrocious! Yes, i agree you may be able to lessen it to a degree by spending more on a line contact or shibata or whatever. My eroica h is an 800 dollar cartridge with a rather nice line contact stylus and I still here it to a degree, it has not magically made it disappear. Also, it is very hard to quantify the severity on a forum as I or you are not directly listening to each others set up. Thus maybe i am exaggerating what I am hearing or you are maybe not as sensitive to the sibilance...who knows really. I understand that Fremer spent over 30k for his current turntable with 2 arms....is that what it will take? Lol

I agree that one shouldn't have to spend so much for a great analog rig, but unfortunately that hasn't been my experience. I started with "budget" tables and carts, like the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon and 2MRed/AT95e. Fast forward a few years and I've finally settled on an analog front end that was ~ $5K total. I found that new tables I considered in the $1200 range still had atrocious platter and motor-pulley runout, and/or bearing play in the tonearms. One $2500 table from a popular U.S. brand had loud platter-bearing noise. There's no excuse for these failings in even a $500 table IMO, but that's what I consistently encountered. I finally have a rig that exceeds the SQ of my digital setup, but I honestly think it absurd that I had to spend that much to arrive there.

Anyhow, I wasn't alleging your problem is lack of expenditure, just that elliptical stylus profiles are probably the worst for mitigating sibilance - even worse than the cheaper conical type IME. 

I've also found that exacting cartridge setup can pay huge dividends. If You're using something like the typical two-point protractor, it might be worthwhile to invest in a Mint LP Best Tractor, or try the free arc-protractor software from this site:
http://conradhoffman.com/chsw.htm

I achieved better tracking and overall SQ using a printed arc protractor from that software. I find it works even better than some of the expensive Dennesen-style protractors. 

Audioguy, you forgot about all of those seismic vibrations that ruin your playback if you don't get one of those isolation platforms. They go right through concrete. They probably even ---- up your tubes not to mention make your toilet flush funny.

Lol, yea I never gave that any thought.....hmmmm

noromance  You are unfortunataly right, I had the same problem with "Pairing" components, I switch another CD player Brand to another less expensive, and I have now a better reading music.  I wonder why companies did not put together the best match of componnets cables and speaakers to have a better music experience. ?

Obtaining a giant can of effective ’siblanc-b-gon’,and using it, consists of a LOW output MC, into a properly specced and applied transformer, and that going into a esoteric oriented RIAA amplifier of medium gain.

the RIAA circuit/amplifier/gain-stages (should be two gain stages, possibly each as passive)... must be built of non magnetic resistive components, with no Mylar, ceramic, or tantalum capacitors. All non magnetic electrolytics, and all non magnetic RCA jacks and so on.

When that is done, combined with the same emphasis and work in the tonearm (good bearings for zero chatter, etc) and it’s connectivity (good wiring, no teflon dielectric, etc, all non magnetic connectivity)...THEN..one can finally get to finding out if the sibilance is in the record (or original recording) or not.

This is done with careful set up of the cartridge, with all of the rest in place.

This is the road to low sibilance. It’s surprising how much it can be the gain stages (as a circuit design) being a problem, and not just the components in the circuit.

the whole thing is the sum of the parts and how it is arranged and then how it is applied. Any one of those steps being missed and you’ll be stuck trying fix a mess that is build into it and unrealized. (meaning -you don’t know what part is at fault, so you’ve no clue which way is up so there is no reference point to begin analysis from--you just spin and throw darts, making mistake after mistake with no end in sight)

If one wants to approach perfection then all the tiny steps must be meticulously applied as a whole set with zero of them missed or ignored.

It’s like you are trying to toss (like blindfolded mini-putt) a ball really hard down a long darkened careening hallway, and bounce perfectly of about a dozen bumpers..and nail the ball into the hole..and never be able to really see any of that pathway you just nailed. Evey inch of following the path must be perfect or the result will be a fail.

In the end, all you can do is play with low output cartridges and see if you can get the compliance of that cartridge to work in the perfected system...and then.. you finally get to hear if sibilance is on the record, or not.

To give you an idea of how rarely it is done to that required level, you can pick any piece of equipment for sale on the 'gon..and then go through them inch by inch. Somewhere near 1 in 50 to 1 in 100 will be built to that required level.

So it's all running in circles in the dark - for the vast majority of us. Never having a clue of how to fix it.

Here is something to ponder on the subject: I have some 1980 vintage stuff from Til Tuesday. Although the music is very well recorded and full of strong dynamic range, the female vocalist has always had a very harsh sibilance to my ears. In fact I could only listen to a few cuts and I had to drop the volume at certain sections of the singing.

I have not changed out any cartridges to experiment with differences, I am still using my old favorite, the Audio Technica AT20ss and now with a new old stock stylus installed (about 150 hours on it at this point). Nothing seems to knock down the harshness. UNTIL, I installed a new Musical Surroundings Nova III to replace my Gold Note PH10 about two weeks ago. I only have around 15 hours use on the Nova III at this point, however I have done a lot of experimenting with the loading and I wanted to try what I was told on another thread makes a huge difference on MM carts and that is using an input impedance value of 100K ohms. The PH10 doesn’t offer this load, only the ’standard’ 47K. When I switched over to 100K ohms, I was blown away by how much smoother, detailed and open air the mid to upper range was. In fact most of the harsh sibilance was gone. The vocals which were always bothering me seemed to be rather pleasant now. I put on another 80’s recording from Duran Duran, a 12 inch 33rpm single of "The Reflex" which has extraordinary low end, but again the vocals drove me nuts with sibilance. I noticed the exact same improvement, it was pleasant to hear now.

Finally I have the right mix of settings which seemed to have solved a decades old issue for me. A simple change of input loading to 100K with capacitance settings of either 100 pf or 200 pf, depending on how much low end you want.

Just for specification as per the post above me, I am using a VPI Ares3 TT with a SME Series IV tonearm, audio cables which are nothing fancy, but custom made from the guy up in Toronto, ground to the chassis of the Nova III, no ground to earth from the chassis (I used to have one connected, but I developed a sudden ground loop and removing the earth ground solved it).   Cartridge as noted is the AT20ss MM which is lower output for MM at 2.7mv.   Gain on the Nova III is set at 52db after initially running 50db.  

With the money spent on three mid-line record players, you could have spent on one top quality record player.   After having set up my friend's SOTA Sapphire recently, sibilance is not an issue, nor is surface noise on most records where it was once a problem. 

On the other hand sometime sibilance is in the recording, meaning I have CDs that have this annoying aspect. 

I agree with Kink56,

Spend the money on a top of the line TT and tonearm.   I replaced a mid-line vintage TT with the Ares3 and SME Series IV, it was quite the revelation in all aspects of performance.

I recently sold the vintage TT as I don't ever see myself using it again.

Agreed, but the problem is I like the tables. The mmf7 I bought years and years ago and its mint. It was seemingly well recepted by all reviewers and was said to compete with some tables twice the price or coming very close. The eroica h is no slouch or pos cartridge at almost a grand (800). Its a line contact as well which is supposed to do better with the sibilance etc. There is zero play in tone arm and the cartridge, although set at factory, is dead on. It has about 100 hours on it and original to table. The pro ject classic sb has the hana el on it and is a high quality turntable. Fremer in his review of it did not note a sibilance issue. He was actually surprised how little it gave up to his ridiculously priced reference turntable. He seemed very pleased with it. To me it's a fantastic table for the price and I doubt I could do too much better even spending near twice its 1500 buck price. As I have said at nauseam....I only have an issue with a handful of lp's. Most of my records sound great. And as my test so to speak concluded, I still think it's the pressing. It Is not bothersome enough for me to get rid of what I have and spend more money than I can prudently afford. It is sometimes annoying though obviously. 

And honestly I’m not comfortable loading a cartridge as high as 100k ohms. If that was recomended then I think you would see that value on most phono preamps. I think at that value it might just be masking some of the sibilance and effecting the sound elsewhere, imo. There has to be a good reason why the standard value is a universal 47k ohm. However that is all irrelevant as I dont use mm cartridges as a whole. I like to use low output mc cartridges which are a different animal. Although the 47k ohm does come into play with my eroica, when used seldomly. I find the higher I load a low out put mc, the high frequencies are enhanced at detriment to the Low and vice versa....I have found a good range for my hana el to be between the recomended 400 ohm and 500 ohms. Luckily my pro ject tube box has a dial in front panel for on the fly adjustments. Even still, with all the adjusting, some records are still sibilant. I could go on and on likely forever about it. Yes maybe with much deeper pockets and disposable income you can reduce it even on some very effected pressings, but you will not make It go away completely in my honest opinion, if it’s in fact the record itself. If it were my equipment, I feel I’d be hearing it every where on every thing...but I do not. For example, Linda ronstadt sounds just fine, emmylou Harris sounds great, Patti page sounds fine, Nancy Sinatra sounds spectacular! Then there are some recordings of my julie london collection that are riddled with sibilance, but then some are not! To me any how, I think it just varies from record to record and there is not a thing that can be done. At least not on my budget or income level.

I also do not think mid fi turtable manufactures would be in business if they let their products out the door knowing full well that they are riddled with sibilance issues! Some clear audio concept tt, music hall (mmf7 & 9), pro ject classic and carbon, regal p3, all very very good tables. So to basically call these tables garbage is crazy, seeing that especially the rega p3 has been a standard of quality for example for a long time. I think Its foolish to spend much more than what you pay for these tables. Also they are reviewed quite heavily and positively, unless all these reviewers are being disingenuous!

I might suggest finding a linear tracking turntable to test your LPs on.....?
On the LP “I Robot” by Alan Parsons Project the song “Wouldn’t Want To Be Like You” has a loose HiHat in the recording that is almost intolerably sibilant on any of my other turntables. 
When played on my linear tracking TT, the sibilance disappears. 
Just a thought...

Your tables and cartridges are good solid entry level products, that is not to say there are the equivalent of a 50 grand analog rig but they are quite capable of reproducing quality sound. I have been setting up TT's for over 4 decades and worked on tables from 100 dollars to 100 grand and I can assure you, you can have good sound on a budget provided everything is set up correctly. In your case I would suggest 2 things 
(1) Get a record cleaner if you don't already have one.
(2) I always suggest to clients if they can afford it, to purchase a phono preamp that has adjustments for capacitance loading, resistance loading and gain level.
I have found throughout the years some clients have preferred a different loading option than what specified by the manufacture, an adjustable phono preamp makes that option available to the user. 
Read slimpikins5 post on 5/24 as an example of how changing loading can make a difference.

I have all that....record cleaners, several, and I own pro jects tube box with adjustable loading from 10 to 1000 ohms, and capacitance as well for mm...I adjusted to about 450 to 500 for the hana el and I like the sound signature there. The vta is slightly rear end down and I like that too. The other way is too harsh In the treble and less bass. My bass is fantastic where if is now and the cartridge sounds nice and open. My records are cleaned 3 different ways...spin clean, hand not used much though, discwasher d4 ( old system not new crap), and vinyl revival from the UK no alcohol.....most of my records look unplayed.....also used is musical fidelity lx lps with loading plugs etc...also, maybe entry level to you...but I disagree....a rega p1 is an example of an entry level table. My tables cost 4 times as much, maybe 5 times. Middle of the road is more accurate. I have zero sibalance on instruments, they sound spectacular!  It's just certain or occasional pressings, mostly female vocalists where it is sometimes present. 

Don’t mean to beat a dead horse but...
This sibilance issue is precisely what drove me toward linear tracking turntables. 
Anyone else here run linear tracking TTs? 

Teo, so are you saying that Teflon dielectric causes sibilance? Not to mention “magnetic” electrolytics and RCA jacks? I don’t even know where one could buy the latter two items; they virtually don’t exist.. And gain stages by definition cannot be passive. And LOMC cartridges are just as prone to exhibit sibilance as are any other types, given the particular LP, the setup, and the right ancillary components.

Pressings will vary in quality. Before blaming the record, take that exact album an play it on a nicer table and you may not hear sibilance.

I've done this, an was sadly reminded my mid fi setup simply isn't up to the task with some albums.

VPI Classic/Kiseki Blue-Fosgate tubed phono=$7Kish full retail, and you still get reminded there is another league of higher fi.

Played certain records on three different tables, soon a fourth, all three with different set ups and cartridges. Sibilance there on all three, and I bet I’ll get it on the fourth as well. I dont have anywhere to take these records to play on a hi end turntable, and I have my doubts that the sibilance will disappear even on one.
I just played an instrumental record called Tijuana taxi and it blew me away....no sibilance any where on high frequencies, no distortion. Fantastic soundstage too. So I really doubt my set ups are garbage. This was played on the pro-ject the classic sb superpack with the Hana el low output moving coil. Imo, with the exception of occasional sibilance on a few pressings with vocals, this combo, combined with pro-ject’s tube box DS2, is a Winner.

audioguy85-

You need to play the exact record on a top notch  system to come to your conclusion. I've done it many times. There have been instances sibilance indeed, is on the pressing. The outcome can go both ways.

Your gear is fine. It just isn't near the "best". Relax and listen to music.

Teo, so are you saying that Teflon dielectric causes sibilance? Not to mention “magnetic” electrolytics and RCA jacks? I don’t even know where one could buy the latter two items; they virtually don’t exist.. And gain stages by definition cannot be passive. And LOMC cartridges are just as prone to exhibit sibilance as are any other types, given the particular LP, the setup, and the right ancillary components.

I made incomplete statements that are more indication of directions to move in.... and expect folks to do their homework, is all.

In your post on 5/20 you stated that 20% to 25% ("1 out of every 4 or 5") of your records exhibit some sort of sibilance, that is unacceptable in terms of what is normal for sibilance in any given record collection. The general consensus among my customers who own large record collections (5,000 or more) is that 1% to 5% of records with sibilance issues is about normal. After every cartridge setup I play a test record to verify all my parameters are set correctly. The test record is an important tool in cartridge setup without one you can never be certain every parameter is correct.If you do not have a test record already I would suggest getting one, especially with 3 TT's in your stable.
I would also suggest taking some of your problem LP's to other peoples systems to see if the sibilance problem still exists in there systems.

Arrowheadrss, I could have been off a bit in my estimate of course. Maybe 5 or 10 percent. Also do not forget, I buy mostly used records as well, so that would increase the likelihood of buying worn records or records with worn grooves. You cannot tell 100 percent if a record you are buying is worn, as even some that look pretty good sometimes have some wear in areas. I disagree about bringing it to someone with a million dollar set up (exageration) as some suggest, as it is a set up I will never own. My turntables are all highly reviewed samples and 2 of the three cartridges are brand new and also highly regarded. The eroica is original to the mmf7 with no more than 100 hours, as it was in storage for years. The alignment parameters were all exhaustively checked and are as close as can be with human hands and eye. The fact that the effected records are all used would substantially increase the percentages of getting a worn record. Also from reading here, it seems there is an abundance of users that are having the same issues. They have listed in their posts countless record titles that have some sibalance. No one I know unfortunately is into audio as I am in my immediate circle. Most if not all audio stores have closed there doors in my immediate area. Sure there may be one maybe 100 miles away, but honestly it is not worth it to me to drive that far. Again, I have a very hard time believing that all three tables and cartridges producing the very same sibilance in the same areas of the pressings can point any where else but the pressing itself. Likewise, if all three are aligned that badly, then it would reason to say that far greater amounts of my collection , if not all of them would behave or play badly, which is not the case. Some play astonishingly. Lastly, the manufacturers of these tables and cartridges are not as rigid as some here as to how to install a cartridge on their particular arm. Some of them even provide a protractor with the table. I do not believe that any of them anticipate that the user is going to use or have to use a microscope to set it up. There is some give or take or tolerances present in the set up process. I do believe that people make much to big of a deal out of it, as long as it looks right with whatever it is you are choosing to align it with, then it should sound fine. I don't think these companies could stay in business if it were not the case. Too many dismiss the pressing as the cause, and some claim to have 100 percent rid themselves of the sibalance issue. I find that way too hard to believe personally. 

Your problem is that you are trying to evaluate equipment that has not been properly broken in yet - most cartridges normally take 100 of break in time, some take more. Phone preamps are about the same, I just finished breaking in a phono preamp that took 300 hours before it finally settled in. One of the ares where the phono preamp sounded really bad in the first hundred hours of break in was- you guessed it- in the sibilance area. You only have one cartridge that is broke in and the others are brand new, I would suggest you not even attempt to access any ares (good or bad) of your system or LP's till ALL of you system is broken in.
A test record does more than check your turntable set up, it can help you identify possible problems in other parts of your system and also help you understand what limitations your tonearm and table may have, it is a cheap easy way to run a diagnostic on your system.
 I have set up, upgraded, and repaired dozens of the same TT's you have and some with the same cartridges you have on yours, I am fairly familiar with your turntables inside and out and how they sound.

Thank you arrowheadrss, I’ll consider a test record. And yes I will have to break in what i have some more and then evaluate then.

Teo, so sorry. I must have woken up on the wrong side of the turntable. But many of your recommendations are “far out”, in my opinion. If you care to amplify, I’m curious.

I stopped plodding my way through the OP’s 4,000-word paragraph when he got to the part where he doesn’t bother aligning using the cantilever because it’s easier using the cartridge body. Bye, Felicia. 

There is no need to align to cantilever if it is parallel to the body. If your cantilever is that far off then maybe...but if that’s the case then you have a defective or poorly built cartridge and it should be returned. Plus it’s an eliptical stylus (hana), that would be far more important for a shibata or line contact. Most protractors with multi lined grids were designed for aligning the cartridge body. That is the predominant method to align it, unless it is of course that far off cantilever wise. Lastly, if you read or bothered to plod your way through my post, you would realize that 2 out of the three turntable/cartridge set ups are untouched by me, as they were set up by the manufacturer. So how did they align them? The fact remains that all three tables produce the sibilance in all the same areas of a specific recording. I could try 10 turntables and I guarantee they will all do the same...that is the whole point of my rant so to speak.

Too bad linear tracking isn't more "popular".....
My Beogram 4002 has zero sibilance issues.....unless the pressing isn't great. Also have a "modified" Technics SL-DL5 in my office system....zero sibilance from it as well.