Hi noromance, to clarify, no I don’t get sibilance on everything I play. It is here and there. But on the records I do get it on, ie julie london recordings (not all), I take those particular pressings and play them on all 3 tables to keep myself sane. The amp is a marantz pm14s1 integrated, so a nice warm sound signature. To offset some of the warmth I use qed silver anniversary bi wire running to wharfedale 225’s, also inherently warm. The turntables aforementioned. Interconnects are all neutral being chord cables and atlas phono interconnect from both the turntable and the preamp in use at any given time. The mmf7 turntable runs directly to the marantz, which takes any outboard preamp out of equation. Like I said its not every record...maybe 1 out of every 4 or 5 records I own exhibit some form of sibilance in varying degrees, and sometimes one song to another on the very same album varies! So logic tells me that it had to be the recording. Lastly, the only cartridge I personally installed was the hana el onto the pro- ject the classic sb turntable. The others have the cartridge that came with then pre installed, and also double checked by me with 3 different protractors ie baerwald and geo disc etc.
The records I mostly play are older 50 and 60’s albums all preowned. So despite looking rather clean, they could still have wear from previous owners worn stylus idk...on some newer albums such as a fresh copy of emmylou harris, I hear no sibilance whatsoever. I do not hear it on my pristine copy of Sinatra singing with his daughter nancy (something stupid) no sibilance at all. Linda ronstadt singing with Nelson riddle orchestra sounds great, no sibilance except what is there normally in the spoken/sung word.
Also it’s not the speakers ,as I confirmed with headphones, and I hear it sometimes through them as well, no matter if I’m connected directly to the marantz headphone jack or my outboard headphone amp....its just plain There, but not on every record. |
I dont have too many duplicates, but yes I have heard really aweful pressings and then a really rather nice pressing of the very same record...quality control issues maybe...idk. I find that the older, and when available original copies sound best dynamically speaking. I guess to make if short, it’s the recording and not my equipment or set up. Also I did try various records of varying quality etc and managed to find sibilance, but mostly only here and there, and sometimes none at all. It stands to reason that if my system, ie turntables & cartridges, were ALL sibilant, then it would manifest itself on anything I played, but that is not the case. Some recordings simply sound wonderful with that Tubey full bodied super wide soundstage sound! |
Yes the ronstadt recording is awesome! I got it at a small used record shop in Boston and it appeared unplayed for only $2.99! I mean of course you can hear her pronounce "s" sounds and so forth, but they dont sound overly harsh or like "sh" or "sssss" etc....now on my instrumental recordings, ie jazz classical big band etc....anything with out vocals....all instruments come through clearly with zero harshness and with a wonderful warm bloom type sound! I just love analog.. the only time I am mildly irritated is that occasional vocal recording that either was not taken care of by previous owner or was not mastered or pressed well and exhibits some sibilance now and then. One other example is the classic records nora jones album. There are at least 2 songs on that album whereas the sibilance is terrible. And again, it manifests itself on three different well maintained and set up turntables! So to me, it’s the freaking pressing, recording, mastering or what have you. I could adjust, align or whatever a cartridge seven ways to Sunday and its still there. |
I tend not to believe those that state they hear zero sibilance on ANY recording through their system. Either their system rolls off the highs, has a subdued midrange or they have discovered something a large majority have not. Again, three different turntables and cartridges, one a line contact in the eroica h by goldring with maybe 50 hours, aligned by project at the factory and double checked by me to be dead on, and still some sibilance on SOME recordings on all three set ups. So to me anyway it's in the record/pressing. I'm through pulling my hair out, what little I have left! |
I checked the factory set up parameters on 2 of the 3 turntables and they are on target. The only one I set up myself was my pro-ject with hana el. I have close to if not 1000 records, most of which are used/preowned. lots are new as well. As i said, not all exhibit this issue, only some. I spent good money on my cables, so i cannot bring myself to use romex. I did however run a dedicated circuit using 12/2 romex for my hifi. I use all audioquest noise conditioners and outlet. My components are generally on the warm side, the way i like it. I do not like exaggerated highs at all. The only thing offsetting my warm sounding equipment is the silver cables (QED), ive used these for years and like them as they make it easier and more convenient to biwire. The speakers are wharfedale 225 not known to be harsh in the treble, so i doubt very much those are an issue. It again is not every recording, only some. and again most of these records are used and for all i know, despite looking ok, could have been played on a cheap record player at some point. There is only so much one can do to align a cartridge, unless you are Michael Fremer. I use well known available products and a 10x magnifier as well as a lighted 40x loupe. I think people make too much of the alignment process honestly. As soon as you change one thing to attain another, you have altered something else! It is a compromise, hence the two null points. My post began with telling everyone that three turntables and three cartridges were used to test out several known pressings with some sibilance on some portions of each record. So unless every one of my turntables and cartridges are mal-adjusted, I am more apt to think that its the fault of either worn record grooves, bad pressings, and bad QC. Additionaly, a cartridge is not selective in itself. If it is truly that far off alignment wise, then all records would sound like crap! This is not the case, as most of my records sound very nice indeed! It is a select few of the 1000 records that exhibit a sibilant sound signature. Lastly, yes all records are cleaned prior to playing with my trusted discwasher d4 system. The ones that are really dirty are remotely cleaned and stored, I am meticulous when it comes to that. I hear the sibilance to the greatest degree with the hana el, which makes some sense, as it is a very open sounding cartridge imo. I hear it to a lesser degree with the goldring eroica h line contact, giving creedence to those in the camp that say the stylus shape matters etc. (line contact tracking better than elliptical). The ortofon OM10 also to a lesser degree due to the fact that I do not feel it is as revealing a cartridge as the other two. This is not to say in the least that the sibilance is gone with the eroica and the om10, but just a bit less annoying. One of the preamps, aforementioned, being a pro-ject tube box ds with front mounted loading adjustments. The Hana EL is connected to this currently, and is loaded at about 450 ohms. Decreasing the load impedance does nothing to remedy the now and then sibilance, it just makes the cartridge sound thick and dull. |
Noromance, some, not all of my julie london’s have some sibilance when she leans heavy on the s sounds. On others there is no discernible sibilance. Again some of these JL records were bought used and are very old. |
Used three different preamps, all the same result. Amp is a warm sounding almost tube like amp. Speakers nice and warm non fatiguing highly reviewed diamond 225 by wharfedale, yes not multi thousand dollar speakers, but nice sounding. All 3 cartridges show up the sibilance on the same tracks or areas of the affected records. Some yes do better with it, but it’s still there....the Haha is the worst offender, second the om10, and third the eroica h. Eroica h is line contact so tracks a bit better, but does NOT eliminate it. Listening with headphones and bypassing my amp/preamp, still there! Use of a different pair of headphones? Still there. So honestly, how any one can say it’s the equipment and not the particular pressing Is beyond me. If I were to ship the records in question to anyone on here, I’m 100% certain that you too will here it. There is no way to eliminate sibilance entirely, especially If its embedded in the record grooves! Unless there Is a magic pill cartridge I’m unaware of.
Headphones used, akg k550 reference, grado 125, and beyerdynamic 600 ohm dt880...in essence, I have bypassed my speaker cables, my speakers, my amplifier to take them all out of the equation. Also to avoid tainting my test results, I played the least offending turntables/cartridges first, and the pro-ject with the hana last. The reason being the hana is the only one of the three for which I’m responsible for as far as mounting, and some say a misaligned cartridge that exhibits sibilance could be etching the grooves with such....The other two tables came factory adjusted and mounted etc...and were double checked etc...and are on target and aligned. All three exhibit the sibilance on the various effected records or tracks. Sorry for repetition but I feel the need to reiterate. I will be pulling out a brand new in the box classic project with pre mounted 2m ortofon silver and see what that does. Of course I will check it first with a protractor.
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Noromance, just to add, I have listened with several pairs of headphones to these recording while playing them on the different turntables. I still hear the sibilance here and there on the headphones. Also, it is there whether I go through the marantz amp or my musical fidelity headphone amp. So I think the fact that I can hear it through headphones should pretty much squash the possibility that it’s my amp, speakers or speaker cables. I’m back to believing its just the darn pressings... |
Ok, yes same here.....mine sounds like worn out grooves. These lps bought used and despite looking rather good, I guess u just do not know how they will sound until played. Thankfully I pay a buck per record so no big deal, and its only on certain songs on each lp. The very next song often sounds ok. And it’s not always just the inner groove songs that sound bad, it can be one on the outer and middle grooves as well. I have a brand new shure m97xe that I can throw onto a spare headshell for my thorens td 240. Some say this cartridge tracks very well etc and is not sibilant. I have my suspicions that what they are hearing is not the cartridge tracking better, but instead they are hearing the shure rolling off the high frequencies, thus making the sibilance harder to hear or detect . I could also roll back the impedance loading on my pro-ject tube box, but the hana el sounds great at the 450 ohm setting I have it set at. Instruments sound unbelievably clear, including cymbals, flutes, etc...and the bass Is perfect, as I can follow bass lines effortlessly. I believe I have my VTA set perfectly for this cartridge. It seems to thrive with its ass end slightly down. I own some original living stereo pressings and those sound fabulous, as if musicians are almost right there in front of me with super sound staging etc...and then I got several pressings that will "sssss" you right of the room lol! |
Noromance....maybe....but I tend to think that even if I spent 3 times as much on gear, the sibilance would still be there....its in the pressing, at least some of them. That was whole point of the test. Thankfully i had three turntables on hand to do it. I actually have a fourth! It’s still in box and has the ortofon 2m silver. Maybe I’ll crack that open and try a fourth turntable/cartridge. The likely scenario imo is that the sibilance will still be heard on the effected pressings....
Just to add, my system plays instrumental music and high frequencies with utmost clarity, with zero harshness, at least to my ears. It's just on a random pressing here or there that I can hear the sibilance, mostly on female vocals, but sometimes on Male vocals as well. I have a louie prima record that is old and it is unlistenable on anything I tried playing it on. Unknown if just worn grooves or just the pressing itself. |
I gotcha......but I have to disagree on the marantz pm14s1. I have read no where that its grainy and bright. It is actually one of their warmest amps of late. Its basically an updated version of the previous pm 15s1. I do agree however that silver cabling can sometimes be an issue with brightness, however all my components are warm, the classic sb turntable, the hana el, the marantz, and especially the wharfedales. Copper or the romex u speak of is known to be warm, so u may be on to something...although it’s the first time I’ve ever heard that suggested for a speaker cable option. All the reviews of that marantz indicate warmth, and thus far it is what I’ve experienced as well. I actually have a biwire set of audioquest type 4’s I could swap in as a test as well. The only other amps I have on hand are the rogue sphinx v2 and another marantz, the pm8006....I guess I could try either as well, when I’m feeling energetic! What a pia with all the wiring I’d have to unhook etc....lol. how did you terminate the 14g romex? Or did you just leave it bare? The marantz only has one set of speaker terminals so I’d have to get creative. Right now my qed’s are terminated with both bananas and spades on amp end to facilitate connecting to amp for biwiring. The audioquest type 4's are already terminated so I think I'll try those prior to testing with romex. Also, the type 4 has no silver content, just a combo of stranded and solid copper conductors I believe. |
Yes, I've visited that sight, but most of those records, however great, are just too much money for me. If money were no issue, I would certainly consider.....I guess I just live with the occasional sibilance, until I am able to replace with a better copy. |
Jdub071, can you further describe what you hear in detail as far as the sibilance on that Linda ronstadt album? I hear generally an unpleasant scratchiness to the s sounds, almost as iritating as finger nails on a chalk board....sometimes it is only one or two songs on an entire album, other times non at all, and other times the whole album sucks. This is generally just a handful, maybe 2 handfuls of the many albums i own that are effected. Sometimes when the sibilance rears its head, I can hear it in left speaker and then it shoots across soundstage to right speaker. That was only on one or two records though. I would hate to hear "Sally sells sea shells by the sea shore" on my system! Lol
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I would have to agree with that jdub071...I do not believe you can totally rid any system (at any cost) of sibilance if it is indeed in the pressing. To do so would entail curtailing the high frequencies to the point where presence is lost, as well as detail in the higher registers.... |
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From my reading of all the responses, I’ve come to the conclusion that their are generally three camps here...the 1st agree that yes, if the pressing is bad or the record is worn then no there is not much to be done about it. The 2nd feels that it can be lessened or be made to sound less noticeable with maybe a different phono amp and or a better cartridge ie a line contact. The 3rd state that their hi res systems produce zero sibilance in all cases and that they have somehow weeded every last iota of sibilance from their set ups....ugh my aching head...hahaha |
I guess I’m just airing out my frustrations on a public forum concerning this battle with something that may never be totally resolved 100%.... any how I feel a bit better laying it out there, whether that be horizontally or vertically lol. One issue is that once you hear it or experience it, you then listen for it (sibilance) on everything you play! It's like you become obsessed with it and then fail to just enjoy your music... |
I’m using very good stuff as it is....not about to spend any more money....I think I’ll just deal with it. I’m not in the camp of mortgaging my house to buy audio equipment lol. My amp is 3 grand, my phono amp is 700, yes the speakers are only 500 but imo very nice ( mind you I also have harbeths @ 2200 & spendors @ 1600.). And my cables were not cheap either. My turntables cost 1500 × 2 (project and music hall mmf7, no slouch) and 1200 for the thorens....so yea I think I spent enough. This does not even include all the cartridges i own and headphones and associated amp(s) and dac and sacd player, and cassette decks etc etc etc, oh and media ......cd...lp....cassettes etc. I mean how much more can ya spend before your wife begins scratching her head and then says well weren’t we supposed to take kids to Disney? Lol.....the sibilance is there and is embedded in the grooves. There is no way of getting rid of it period. I’ll send any one of you my Louis prima record on me and u will see what I mean...it is atrocious! Yes, i agree you may be able to lessen it to a degree by spending more on a line contact or shibata or whatever. My eroica h is an 800 dollar cartridge with a rather nice line contact stylus and I still here it to a degree, it has not magically made it disappear. Also, it is very hard to quantify the severity on a forum as I or you are not directly listening to each others set up. Thus maybe i am exaggerating what I am hearing or you are maybe not as sensitive to the sibilance...who knows really. I understand that Fremer spent over 30k for his current turntable with 2 arms....is that what it will take? Lol |
Lol I dont think so....there is nothing wrong with my system as most records sound great. There are a Few bad pressings as you previously agreed is the issue. The three turntables all like new, if not new, all verify that it's the pressing and not my system. Soon I will test my 4th turntable....as u suggested, I took my amp out of the equation and used my headphone amp to have a listen and with three different pairs of headphones and three different turntables and 3 different phono preamps, still there. So I am doubting that my qed silver anniversary bi wire cables are the issue if they were not even being used in this particular test, neither was the marantz amp. I used a musical fidelity preamp, a Graham slee amp 2 se, and project tube box ds......so unless every component In my system is somehow defective or something, which is impossible, then it is just the pressing(s). |
I never ever said that I am unhappy with every record! 90 percent of what I play sounds terrific to my ears.....its the random and occasional record that I play that sounds like crap! Its the pressing period. I created this post to help people with the same issue, and to maybe prove that there is nothing wrong with their set ups and that this issue can be attributed to the poor quality of some pressings. I think, in my mind, I have proved it, at least to myself. No offense intended, but according to your profile, you are using an average 50 dollar cartridge on that dual. There are way better cartridges than the at95, imo. The thorens I own is also very similar to a dual. |
Ah I got it. Yes I do not see how there would any vibrations there for sure. I like my stuff in basement for same reasons, no footfalls and the wall my turntable is mounted to is concrete, so zero vibrations. There is carpet down there as well as a very large sectional with toss pillows, blankets etc...so a good mix of absorption and reflection etc....walls are all dry walled, as well as ceiling. |
I'm not! The tables are not average first of all! Have you even heard the classic sb by pro-ject? Even fremer thought it was a nice table! I bought the thorens because I like it, I like that when I'm lazy it's an automatic. As far as the music hall mmf7, I bought that years and years ago..its the original mmf7 and has received terrific reviews from everyone. I doubt that even a 4000 5000 table will get rid of what I hear if it's the record. There is no magic disappearing act. |
I can only read what’s there, and that is what u have listed....sorry...legacy I assume means old? Idk, I'm still feeling my way around this place🙄 |
Ok I had a look! It looks to me like you are trying to find the holy grail! My goodness, I’ve never seen Anything like that, with all the modifying and change outs etc....honestly it looks like you were driven crazy by something to make all those changes. My route seemed quite easy really, and I do enjoy my system as is....with exception of a few select pressings that are really out of mycontrol, as buying a used record is hit or miss. Plus I’m not made of money or retired and lack that much time to constantly fuss over it....I’ll give you this much, its some very nice stuff you are playing with there!😁
I try not to get jealous of others and what they have lol...yes, I’m average and probably always will be. Yet, my crap Is probably much better than maybe 75 percent of what others own, particularly non audiophile types hahaha....
Just wondering, are you in process of finishing your basement? It does not look like an optimal environment for listening. |
Do you plan to finish that basement area eventually? My junk is in my basement as well, but mine is finished and furnished etc....and yes I bet it sounds pretty darn good! |
Lol, yea I never gave that any thought.....hmmmm |
I also do not think mid fi turtable manufactures would be in business if they let their products out the door knowing full well that they are riddled with sibilance issues! Some clear audio concept tt, music hall (mmf7 & 9), pro ject classic and carbon, regal p3, all very very good tables. So to basically call these tables garbage is crazy, seeing that especially the rega p3 has been a standard of quality for example for a long time. I think Its foolish to spend much more than what you pay for these tables. Also they are reviewed quite heavily and positively, unless all these reviewers are being disingenuous! |
Agreed, but the problem is I like the tables. The mmf7 I bought years and years ago and its mint. It was seemingly well recepted by all reviewers and was said to compete with some tables twice the price or coming very close. The eroica h is no slouch or pos cartridge at almost a grand (800). Its a line contact as well which is supposed to do better with the sibilance etc. There is zero play in tone arm and the cartridge, although set at factory, is dead on. It has about 100 hours on it and original to table. The pro ject classic sb has the hana el on it and is a high quality turntable. Fremer in his review of it did not note a sibilance issue. He was actually surprised how little it gave up to his ridiculously priced reference turntable. He seemed very pleased with it. To me it's a fantastic table for the price and I doubt I could do too much better even spending near twice its 1500 buck price. As I have said at nauseam....I only have an issue with a handful of lp's. Most of my records sound great. And as my test so to speak concluded, I still think it's the pressing. It Is not bothersome enough for me to get rid of what I have and spend more money than I can prudently afford. It is sometimes annoying though obviously. |
And honestly I’m not comfortable loading a cartridge as high as 100k ohms. If that was recomended then I think you would see that value on most phono preamps. I think at that value it might just be masking some of the sibilance and effecting the sound elsewhere, imo. There has to be a good reason why the standard value is a universal 47k ohm. However that is all irrelevant as I dont use mm cartridges as a whole. I like to use low output mc cartridges which are a different animal. Although the 47k ohm does come into play with my eroica, when used seldomly. I find the higher I load a low out put mc, the high frequencies are enhanced at detriment to the Low and vice versa....I have found a good range for my hana el to be between the recomended 400 ohm and 500 ohms. Luckily my pro ject tube box has a dial in front panel for on the fly adjustments. Even still, with all the adjusting, some records are still sibilant. I could go on and on likely forever about it. Yes maybe with much deeper pockets and disposable income you can reduce it even on some very effected pressings, but you will not make It go away completely in my honest opinion, if it’s in fact the record itself. If it were my equipment, I feel I’d be hearing it every where on every thing...but I do not. For example, Linda ronstadt sounds just fine, emmylou Harris sounds great, Patti page sounds fine, Nancy Sinatra sounds spectacular! Then there are some recordings of my julie london collection that are riddled with sibilance, but then some are not! To me any how, I think it just varies from record to record and there is not a thing that can be done. At least not on my budget or income level. |
I have all that....record cleaners, several, and I own pro jects tube box with adjustable loading from 10 to 1000 ohms, and capacitance as well for mm...I adjusted to about 450 to 500 for the hana el and I like the sound signature there. The vta is slightly rear end down and I like that too. The other way is too harsh In the treble and less bass. My bass is fantastic where if is now and the cartridge sounds nice and open. My records are cleaned 3 different ways...spin clean, hand not used much though, discwasher d4 ( old system not new crap), and vinyl revival from the UK no alcohol.....most of my records look unplayed.....also used is musical fidelity lx lps with loading plugs etc...also, maybe entry level to you...but I disagree....a rega p1 is an example of an entry level table. My tables cost 4 times as much, maybe 5 times. Middle of the road is more accurate. I have zero sibalance on instruments, they sound spectacular! It's just certain or occasional pressings, mostly female vocalists where it is sometimes present.
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Played certain records on three different tables, soon a fourth, all three with different set ups and cartridges. Sibilance there on all three, and I bet I’ll get it on the fourth as well. I dont have anywhere to take these records to play on a hi end turntable, and I have my doubts that the sibilance will disappear even on one.
I just played an instrumental record called Tijuana taxi and it blew me away....no sibilance any where on high frequencies, no distortion. Fantastic soundstage too. So I really doubt my set ups are garbage. This was played on the pro-ject the classic sb superpack with the Hana el low output moving coil. Imo, with the exception of occasional sibilance on a few pressings with vocals, this combo, combined with pro-ject’s tube box DS2, is a Winner. |
Arrowheadrss, I could have been off a bit in my estimate of course. Maybe 5 or 10 percent. Also do not forget, I buy mostly used records as well, so that would increase the likelihood of buying worn records or records with worn grooves. You cannot tell 100 percent if a record you are buying is worn, as even some that look pretty good sometimes have some wear in areas. I disagree about bringing it to someone with a million dollar set up (exageration) as some suggest, as it is a set up I will never own. My turntables are all highly reviewed samples and 2 of the three cartridges are brand new and also highly regarded. The eroica is original to the mmf7 with no more than 100 hours, as it was in storage for years. The alignment parameters were all exhaustively checked and are as close as can be with human hands and eye. The fact that the effected records are all used would substantially increase the percentages of getting a worn record. Also from reading here, it seems there is an abundance of users that are having the same issues. They have listed in their posts countless record titles that have some sibalance. No one I know unfortunately is into audio as I am in my immediate circle. Most if not all audio stores have closed there doors in my immediate area. Sure there may be one maybe 100 miles away, but honestly it is not worth it to me to drive that far. Again, I have a very hard time believing that all three tables and cartridges producing the very same sibilance in the same areas of the pressings can point any where else but the pressing itself. Likewise, if all three are aligned that badly, then it would reason to say that far greater amounts of my collection , if not all of them would behave or play badly, which is not the case. Some play astonishingly. Lastly, the manufacturers of these tables and cartridges are not as rigid as some here as to how to install a cartridge on their particular arm. Some of them even provide a protractor with the table. I do not believe that any of them anticipate that the user is going to use or have to use a microscope to set it up. There is some give or take or tolerances present in the set up process. I do believe that people make much to big of a deal out of it, as long as it looks right with whatever it is you are choosing to align it with, then it should sound fine. I don't think these companies could stay in business if it were not the case. Too many dismiss the pressing as the cause, and some claim to have 100 percent rid themselves of the sibalance issue. I find that way too hard to believe personally. |
Thank you arrowheadrss, I’ll consider a test record. And yes I will have to break in what i have some more and then evaluate then. |
There is no need to align to cantilever if it is parallel to the body. If your cantilever is that far off then maybe...but if that’s the case then you have a defective or poorly built cartridge and it should be returned. Plus it’s an eliptical stylus (hana), that would be far more important for a shibata or line contact. Most protractors with multi lined grids were designed for aligning the cartridge body. That is the predominant method to align it, unless it is of course that far off cantilever wise. Lastly, if you read or bothered to plod your way through my post, you would realize that 2 out of the three turntable/cartridge set ups are untouched by me, as they were set up by the manufacturer. So how did they align them? The fact remains that all three tables produce the sibilance in all the same areas of a specific recording. I could try 10 turntables and I guarantee they will all do the same...that is the whole point of my rant so to speak. |
