I have perfected my network for the nth time

@singingg 

Thanks for your very thoughtful post, but I do have questions.  The biggest one is with ethernet cables being bidirectional, how can switching them directionally change the sound?  My system is using three Cat seven cables in the sound path at the moment.  Most people need at least two.  Did you change the one from your modem and your router as well as the one from your router to your streamer? If so, did they both make a difference?  Did one make a bigger difference than the other?

Thanks in advance.

@fredrik222 You don't resort to personal attacks? That's rich. That's all you've been doing lately since your kaleidoscopic blunder.

All the best,
Nonoise

@lalitk yeah, that's always the response for absolutely ridiculous and impossible scenarios... Ethernet is not directional, that is a simple fact, here is no difference at all, doesn't matter what people like @tonywinga says, it is 100% in their head, confirmation bias. And since some people are so easily fooled by their own biases, you just can't trust anything they put out. 

Quote from the article I posted:

Taking potshots at "audiophools" dumb enough to believe that a $10,000 cable will somehow improve the playback of NAS-hosted music is a little bit like making fun of Kim Jong Il’s golf scores—both are so obviously delusional that it’s impossible to not point and laugh. In the case of the AudioQuest Ethernet cables, subjecting the things to a double-blind listening test isn’t even necessary to prove that the manufacturer’s claims are bunk—a basic understanding of what Ethernet is and how it works demolishes the foundational claims that the cables can possibly do anything special in the first place, and everything else crumbles once those are gone.

I don’t doubt that they’re nice cables and that the plugs are sturdy, but if you buy these, you deserve to be parted from your $10,000.

@nonoise Nope, I didn’t, I just called out your ignorance. That is all. You successfully prove in every post that you don’t even want to know anything about the topics you post about, and then you attack people who thinks you are just noise.

I'm in the high-fidelity first class travelling set
And I think I need a Learjet
 

who said dat?  Must be a rock star!

@fastfreight

Thanks again for your feedback on S1. I am not surprised by your findings given Marcin’s background in computer audio and the time he took to design S1 from ground up. Some of us are living vicariously through your wonderful experiences with high quality streamers. Keep us posted on what you end up keeping. I honestly don’t care for Roon based on my comparisons made with other competing apps like Conductor and JPLAY.

@nonoise what is wrong with you? You were destroyed in that thread on topics from Streaming as a media, 4K OTA, cable TV, and so on. Each a topic you didn’t know anything about but yet you had an expert opinion. I should post all the DMs I received laughing at you, but I am seriously concerned about your mental well-being as is.

This is a very interesting thread. I thought I was doing good converting all of our phone drops to a hardwired network. Luckily, we had cat5e running throughout the house. I installed a basic unmanaged switch and ran an additional drop of plenum rated cat5e from the streamer to the switch. Since cat5e is running from the switch to the router, I didn’t find any benefit in upgrading only one cable. I used the highest quality of jacks available. At a minimum, a home run cable from the streamer to the switch is needed to eliminate buffering etc. After reading this thread, I need to do a little more research on unmanaged switches. Maybe a LHY-8 is a better approach. I need at least 8 live slots for a mesh router and other devices. 

@nonoise here you go making things up again. I said that your premise that video streaming is inherently bad is wrong, and gave you the example of Kaleidascape…

you said 4K OTA isn’t a thing, which is wrong. And so on, over and over again. Nothing you posted was rooted in reality. 

yeah, I know you don’t hold facts in high regard, but seriously, seek help, now: https://988lifeline.org/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=onebox

@singingg interesting write up but it leaves me wondering…with all the time and money spent on using cheap cables and accessories, as well as components that require tweaks to this extent, it sure seems the whole is less than the sum of its parts.
In other words, instead of spending so much effort, time and money on cluttering up the space in a quest for ultimate ethernet signal, investing in a better quality component(s) and adding a passive filter like the Network Acoustics Eno or Muon seems like a better approach to me. Less is more when it comes to ethernet at least in my experience.

@nonoise I am seriously concerned about your mental health and your ability understand your surroundings. I will disengage now before you cause harm to yourself. 

+1, @audphile1 …. investing in better quality components and Less is more when it comes to tweaking ethernet signal. 

I’d be interested to know if anyone has any actual data that illustrates improved sound quality. If you are using a high quality streamer and DAC, it’s hard to believe there would be any difference in SQ if you are already using a switch like Cisco or Netgear. I plan on talking to a few CEE’s next week. I’m streaming Qobuz HR without issue - no buffering etc. 

@rubicon15 no one has any data, because none exists.

And just FYI, Qobuz and others always buffer, streaming isn’t a continuous stream, but a series of downloads, I.e. pulling as much data down as fast as possible.

I understand how Qobuz and other providers transmit their data. Even though they buffer data during use/download, I have personally experienced a significant difference with a dedicated drop (home run) to a network switch. I suspect, those that do not have a dedicated drop may experience additional buffering while playing music. Specifically, I experienced additional buffering when my previous streamer was connected to a mesh router. Note, the mesh router was hard wired to my network. Installing an additional drop eliminated additional buffering. 

rubicon15

... I experienced additional buffering when my previous streamer was connected to a mesh router ...

When you say "additional buffering" what do you mean exactly? I think the size of the buffer is set by the provider, @rubicon15. Or, are you saying you had actual drop-outs with the mesh system? If so, that sounds like a setup problem.

I think a lot of people refer to 'buffering' when the sound (or tv) spins its wheels and reloads a bit.   Buffering is the streamer or tv downloading ahead of playback to have a reserve so to speak of info and hopefully never be behind.

Stuttering in playback is the buffering not working as designed, usually from poor wifi or ethernet.  I will wait to be corrected if I am wrong!

Try pulling the ethernet cable on your streamer or tv and watch how long it continues to play.  This is buffering working correctly.

This has nothing to do with Buffering. And nothing to do with internet signals passing through ethernet lines. In other words, people don't go through such lengths in optimizing their streaming setups simply to assure bits are transferred. Everyone knows that, it's not a rocket science.

This has to do with preventing noise from travelling through Ethernet lines (copper) and affecting your streaming chain. There are plenty of materials explaining this. I will just quote John Swenson here, but there are really many:

There are two types of sound-degrading influences the EtherREGEN is designed to radically decrease: Leakage—both high-impedance and low-impedance—and clock phase-noise. The clock phase-noise travels on the Ethernet signal itself and on power- and ground-planes. [Every signal edge coming out of any digital device carries the jitter/phase-noise of the clock used to "clock out" that edge; this shows up on the ground-plane and affects the threshold of chips’ clock inputs.

Fastfreight, yes, you are correct buffering should preload the file in advance of the music playing. In my case, yes, the music play back was interrupted or as I described as buffering. This occurred while the streamer was connected to a second port on one of the mesh extenders. When I installed a dedicated drop, home run to the switch, it eliminated all of the additional buffering as described. I have not experienced any buffering/shuttering since the dedicated drop was added. I rarely, if ever, have any wifi or network issues. What I described was isolated to the streamer prior to the dedicated drop. Hope this makes a bit more sense.

@rubicon15 it’s a connection drop out. Stop calling it buffering. Buffering is what prevents a user from noticing a brief connection drop out. You had issues with your setup. I use mesh for years and zero problems streaming audio and video.

audphile, I was using the “buffering” term to describe a condition I experienced. A layman’s term that most non technical people understand and may have experienced. This is commonly observed on televisions. For the record, I don’t believe I was experiencing a connection dropout. I didn’t observe a drop when monitoring the speed on an app. Granted, an app is fairly low tech. In my case, the only change I made was the addition of a dedicated drop - same switch, router and provider. Again, not a single problem after adding the dedicated drop. 

Time to catch up. Let’s address a few points as best as we can.

1. The subject that has everyone’s knickers in a bunch is ethernet cable direction. Since I stumbled onto the topic and confirmed it for myself I have continued to think about it. Of course the bottom line is I don’t need to understand what I perceive with my hearing, but we all are ultimately unsatisfied with an unanswered WHY .

Yes, tipping my hat to all IT professionals, ethernet cables are bi-directional by design. Here is where I will get into my theory and it is only a theory because I DO NOT KNOW. When streaming music, do we listen to both transmissions to and fro? I think not. I reported I found the most significant sonic change reversing the ethernet cable going into my i5 Transporter server which is sending requests out to the web for files and directing them to my renderer. I further postulate that excellent cable manufacturers are fully aware of the surface anomalies that occur in drawing metal through dies to make wire, which creates directionality. I speculate in designing a bi-directional cable they will run the wires two different directions for incoming and outgoing signals. This may be incorrect as the wires may be assigned duty randomly by the equipment designers. I defer to someone that knows that answer. Never-the-less, we only LISTEN to the INCOMING FILES and when we get that wire positioned correctly there will be sonic benefits. That is my theory and I open it to civil discussion for all to learn.

2. Several suggested that I buy some really expensive equipment and save time and trouble because throwing money at a problem is the solution to the problem. I have generally, with a couple of exceptions (front ends and speakers which I bought for the long haul), spent only what I needed to get me where I wanted to exist. I assure you that Small Green Computer, Pangea cables, Supra cables, and my beloved $15 switch with the $110 PS (don’t you just love it?) are doing the job to the highest standards and have taken me THERE (see 3 below). Small Green Computer has had the philosophy of separating the server from the render as the easiest solution to myriad problems. I bought into that, and since I am heavily divested in my tweaked network, I shall keep it in my end-game system. As to clutter, this separating of duties only requires me to buy one extra power supply, another PC, and another ethernet cable. Everything is now as tidy as can be on my 10 equipment shelves with my amplification and other front ends. The biggest challenge was routing the cables for best performance.

3. Where is THERE?

No one seems to have gotten the reason I posted this thread at this time. I apologize for its necessary complexity and leaving the conclusion to the end (where else do you put it?). It takes a couple of readings to digest and comprehend what the article is ultimately about. It is not about being an obsessive OCD gear-head. It is about a journey into the unknown towards a specific goal: PARITY. I think I achieved that, and publishing and breaking out the champagne is my way of celebrating.

Let me put this in some perspective.

With the advent of silver discs the debates began and still rage. Which format sounds better, LPs or CDs? Phonographs had the head start and the technology was very mature, so LPs definitely held the advantage. CD players had a lot of research and tweaking to do to reach parity. When we bring these competing technologies into our rooms and systems we have further tweaking to do to achieve absolute parity, bordering on the obsessive. Someone who has done it knows the rewards. The formats will never sound the same, but they can be equally satisfying.

With streaming we have a third format competing for sonic dominance. It has the ultimate advantage of HI-RES files to take the lead. However, I will never abandon my physical mediums of 6000 LPs and 4000 silver discs. I own them and if all else fails I will have something to listen to. They serve as a reference as to where I stand in getting the new technology to compete with the established formats, and they still just sound wonderful. How do you know when you are THERE? We are very fortunate this time around to have an “apples to apples” direct comparison of CD playback verses 16/44.1 files into the same DAC. As streaming is a fledgling technology, it again takes seemingly obsessive tweaking to achieve that end, but probably just as equally obsessive as the beloved and finicky vinyl playback.

As I poke my head back out the rabbit hole, glass of champagne in hand, I salute all with a hearty “CHEERS.” I accomplished my goal for now, but I will keep my ears out for an unturned stone that may need to be pursued.

singingg

Several suggested that I buy some really expensive equipment and save time and trouble because throwing money at a problem is the solution to the problem.

I’ve read this whole thread - including the nasty posts that the moderators deleted - and no one here offered that advice to you.

... streaming is a fledgling technology, it again takes seemingly obsessive tweaking to achieve that end ...

Streaming is hardly "fledgling technology," unless perhaps you consider the Internet and digital communications "fledgling."

Audphile, I should also add that I do believe the wired wifi extender was causing a connection issue. Technically, buffering can be caused by a connection drop as described by you or a slow internet connection. In other words, buffering can be the byproduct of a connection problem - including drops. The cause of buffering may vary based on a number of possible factors. In my case, separating the streamer from the extender and adding a dedicated drop to an unmanaged switch resolved the problem.

@cleeds

08-09-2023 at 04:08pm

08-09-2023 at 05:24pm

This is not something that I take personally, but I address it all the same because it is a continuing audiophile debate in which I take a stance.

@singingg better components = components that have better design and better quality parts where it matters the most, including power supplies, more robust network and digital design and implementation. All of this results in better sound. Is it more expensive? In most cases yes. But it is less expensive than stringing up endless converters, adding upgraded linear power supplies and introducing more noise with each of these tweaks than you think you just got rid of. Your cure is worse than the disease.
Speaking of throwing money at a problem - that’s exactly what you’re doing. You have a souped up base Civic with a kitchen sink of performance tweaks thrown at it. It ain’t a Porsche and it’ll never be, it’s still a Civic, although at the end of the day what you had invested in it either rivals or equals what you would buy a Porsche for.
I don’t mean to rain on your parade, so don’t take it the wrong way, but no matter what you do you will always be limited by the components.

@audphile1  No foul. However if my 16/44.1 streaming matches the sound quality of my silver disc player, I'll see you at the dragstrip. Best of 3?

cleeds, I can only make a recommendation based on my experience. Run a dedicated drop to the streamer - from a switch or router and purchase a decent internet plan from your provider. Personally, I don’t believe you need to purchase a $600+ switch. Purchase a quality switch that will meet your network needs. I’m currently using a Netgear switch. If you haven’t upgraded your router in a while, I would suggest an upgrade if you’re streaming a lot. Without getting technical, it’s that simple. You can purchase the tools and terminate your cables as needed.

When I got a Pangea SE Premier Ethernet cable to try, I put it between my router and the LHY-8 Network switch.  This cable features silver plated Cardas copper wire.  I let it run in for a day and then sat down to listen.  The soundstage and imaging was improved but the highs were harsh and edgy.  I was shocked.  This cable made the highs sound worse than the cheap $10 ethernet cable that I had been using.  I was about to remove Pangea ethernet cable when I thought to reverse it.  Bam!  The highs were now smooth and clear.  Quite the difference.  I added a mark on one end to indicate direction.  I reversed the cable again and the harsh, edgy highs came back.  Don’t know why.  Don’t need to know why.  I’m a hobbyist, an applications specialist.  If I were in business then knowing could possibly be a competitive advantage and I would not be sharing even this information.

Someone mentioned in a post somewhere that presenters do not run dedicated power or change outlets in the hotel rooms they use at Axpona.  Maybe they don’t run dedicated power lines but when I went to Axpona I found a handful of rooms that stood out from the rest.  The music made it hard to leave the room vs some rooms where I didn’t stay for more than a minute or two.  Apparently, some of these presenters know how to set up a system in a hotel room and I doubt they are willing to share that information for free.

@singingg a quick story…last year I decided to try CDs again. I picked up a dedicated CD transport, a Pro-Ject DS2T and a DH Labs AES/EBU cable from Upscale Audio. I gave both the transport and the cable time to break in and compared it to streaming. My Bricasti M3 DAC with network renderer used as a Roon end-point. I ran thru a ton of CDs. The Pro-Ject went back to Upscale. I wanted to love it but it just didn’t match streaming. 

@audphile1  

 I have no doubt that was the case. My silver disc player is an Esoteric, which I highly recommend.

@audphile1

A DAC like Bricasti M3 is perfectly capable of rendering finer performance and nuances embedded in a recording. @singingg owns a Benchmark DAC3B….need I say more 😉

rubicon15

Technically, buffering can be caused by a connection drop as described by you or a slow internet connection.

You don't seem to understand what buffering is. It's part of the TCP/IP protocol and it is not caused by a "connection drop." In fact, proper buffering is exactly what prevents an interruption when you are streaming audio.

I can only make a recommendation based on my experience. Run a dedicated drop to the streamer - from a switch or router and purchase a decent internet plan from your provider.

I did that years ago.

I had the 3 HGC before the Bricasti. Not garbage but not great.
@singingg Esoteric is a nice player though…they make good stuff. Depending on the model and vintage of the esoteric player, I get your drive to bring the streaming up to that level. Research, trial and error, spending time and money is all part of it which makes it fun. Eventually you get to the point where you say enough’s enough, sell all the low end stuff, deposit you converters and linear power supplies into garbage bags, tie the bags with the cheap ethernet cables. and move on to better components. It’s gonna happen. It’s not a matter of if but when.

“I will keep my ears out for an unturned stone that may need to be pursued.”
@singingg 

Thought you’re open to learning and improving….maybe not! 

cleed, with all do respect, we are both correct. Buffering is as you described. A device buffers data, keeps it in the cue so to speak. However, the term buffering is also used in the tech industry to describe the condition I referred to - weak wifi with intermittent drops or connection drops can cause what is known as buffering. I consulted two different CEE’s to verify this information. By the way, I installed a dedicated drop to stream music years ago. 

audphile1, the Bricasti is a very nice streamer. I was split between it and the Lumin U2 mini. I ended up purchasing the mini. So far, minimal hours on it, I am very pleased. I agree, you can’t go wrong with a Bricasti. Like you, I was only interested in a streamer without a DAC etc.

Actually my Bricasti M3 is a DAC with an optional network renderer. I use it as a Roon end point without a dedicated streamer.
I did own a Lumin U1 Mini that I tested extensively against the Bricasti and the M3 won every time. So I sold the Lumin.
Right now my set up is Roon running on Mac Mini 2018 wired in another room next to router, EERO mesh access point behind the Bricasti M3 feeding ethernet into the DAC via a Network Acoustics Eno streaming system (passive filter and cable).

I assumed, you were referring to the Bricasti streamer. None the less, a really nice unit. In my case, I had a 3K budget and was not interested in a combined unit. I’m using the EERO pro mesh router as well. Every extender is hard wired. I’ve had it since it was released. I’m hoping to get another year or two out of it before upgrading to newer technology. So far, it’s provided consistent and reliable service.

@fastfreight 

Stuttering in playback is the buffering not working as designed, usually from poor wifi or ethernet.  I will wait to be corrected if I am wrong!

You are not wrong. 

@singingg

Yes, tipping my hat to all IT professionals, ethernet cables are bi-directional by design. Here is where I will get into my theory and it is only a theory because I DO NOT KNOW. When streaming music, do we listen to both transmissions to and fro? I think not.

There is where the complete lack of understand of how Ethernet and the TCP/IP (OSI) stack works comes in. YES, you always, always, have two way communication between the sender and the receiver. Here is a diagram how it works.

@fredrik222

Your diagram did not load. I am most curious to look at it. Maybe you can answer my question: in an ethernet cable are the same wires always assigned to output and input, or are the duties randomly applied by equipment designers?

Thanks

@singingg it’s figure 2.5 from here:

http://books.gigatux.nl/mirror/unixnetworkprogramming/0131411551_ch02lev1sec6.html

There are three types of standard Ethernet cables: straight (standard, 99.99% of cables), crossed, and rolled. they have a standardized pin layout that you can find here:

https://www.computercablestore.com/straight-through-crossover-and-rollover-wiring

Which pins are being used for what is determined on the standard in use, which basically means speed, here’s a picture of an example of that:

It’s about the music, not data.