I don't want to beat a dead horse but I'm bugged.

That is what really bugs me. If something measures so poorly, wouldn't you want to correlate the measurements with what you hear? Do people still buy gear on measurements alone? I learned that can be a big mistake. I just don't get it, never have. Can anybody provide some insight to why some people are stuck on audio measurements?

"what you hear?"

There is so many variables you as a human is not a constant your memory is not flawless changes with time. Yes I know it will com as a shock for most people.. YOU are not the best thing that has walked on the earth.. (i know I ain't anyway)

 

Emotions: Exactly same system (as constant) as human that system will sonically VARY in how it sounds from session to session. If it is the person state of mind.. or air pressure.. or weekend or weekdays.. and so on..

(The hard fix is to have multiple listening sessions over a long period of time to try to get a subjective average "opinion" of a piece of gear. That opinion is derived from a variable called memory that are anchored in feelings. That likely are from a different room system components and again state of mind.)

Variables: If a power amplifier is paired with one of many transducers, one of many cables (if or not that makes a difference don't matter but we can agree on that there is a placebo effect anyway even if you don't think it does any difference),  one of many pre-amps, one of many source medias, one of many source media playback devices, one of many... And so on..

The bottom line even if a reviewer genuinely thinks that a specific power amplifier is the best thing he ever have experienced. And it may be true.

But you can go home to him and borrow THAT unicorn of power amplifier and put it in your system. And you will not get the same result and not even if you bring over the reviewer home to your place to listen to his power amplifier there is so many factors that has changed that even if it is the same power amplifier (DUT) and the same individual reviewer. He will most likely say "oh, this is not how I remember it sounded at my place".. So many variables have changed. So we can ask our selves how much is his opinion worth.. ..in my opinion as much as watching a episode of Simpsons/seinfeld more or less just for entertainment..😀

 

If you take into account all variables all combinations, environment changes and so on. Then to do a review of piece of gear would take considerable amount of time to try to make it justice.

With that in mind and the knowledge that Amirat ASR has reviewed/measured many hundreds of pieces of gear. If he should make justice to all and one reviewed item then he or anyone else would not be able to conduct that in a lifetime with all the combinations..

 

So what value does it have if Amir listening to a component for a hour when nobody has a lifetime to waste on just listening.. the value of that listening session is more or less worthless.

 

I do not mean that measurements is be all end all.

But I don't understand why we should care about what Amir hear when he listens to a piece of gear? That is more pointless than the measurements when there is all of the above variables and more.

 

And what does "I only need to have my own two ears as measurements devices" mean.. 

• Does it mean that your ears are better than anything else on this earth
• Does it mean you have golden ears
• Does it mean your experiences are greater than anyone elses
• Does it mean that your are the only one that needs to like what you hear
• Does it mean that your hearing is better than any messurment device
• Does it mean that .. and so on..

Okay let's forget all the craziness above and attack the question from another method than discuss back and forth..

___

Have you done the experiment that you go to ASR and look up the WORST measuring power amplifier that Amir has measured.

There is a good candidate that is measuring that bad so it only performed half of the performance of the next worst one!

So it is a real under performer..

Then buy that power amplifier:

• The idea is now you got a objective bad power amplifier. And you can listen to it for months in your system and evaluate it your self and knowing that this is as BAD it can get. That is as worse it will ever get.. .. for a power amplifier.

You will be amazed of the result!

And you will gain experience. And you will know what is the worst end of the objective spectrum of a power amplifier.

 

Nobody, does that and don't have that experience!

When everyone is always chasing the next best thing all the time and have no clue what the gap/range in sound quality to the worst one are.

 

Then you know how much measurements matters. If anything.

And also if THAT power amplifier is the worst thing ever produced and you might like it. Or you find out that the sonic gap/difference between them is so small so it is almost not worth talking about. Or if you hear any difference at all.

Then maybe reflect over all the individual reviewers that uses so big words to describe a power amplifier that they review! How can that small of a difference between two power amplifiers generate that amount of big words..

    ..oh it is just entertainment, and useful SQ info as watching seinfeld..

 

So maybe WE need to calibrate our ear-brain system when 99.9% of us don't know how the worst sounds like then we can't expect or know how much or little a specific component like a power amplifier can bring or rob sonically in a HiFi system.

+1000 @mapman @russ69

reminds me back in my corporate world days, some blowhards in meetings never cease talking, as if the sound of their own voice is the only music they like to hear

when they are (rarely) silent, you quickly realize they aren’t listening, they're just reloading...

🙄

to correlate the measurements with what you hear? Do people still buy gear on measurements alone? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ As everyone here knows , I am the worlds biggest FR/WB fan=atic,, Due to the higher sesn vs your average loud speaker woofer + Tweeter set up, For me sens is EVERYTHING, I buy based only on 1 measurement Sensitivity. If a tweeter is not at the very least 91db **TRUE BONIFIDE real time* acutal, no hype, 91db, I would not even consider. Twetters have to be 92db - 94 db. Otherwose not remotely interested, Same for woofers,, I've looked over every woofer on the market, all fall below 92db. Which is why I went to Fulll Range/Wide band speakers,,,and never lookd back. I'm running dual FR + 2 tweeters, the T's are 91db each, But about to go w a 94db tweeter which will replace the 2 T.s 1 measurement, sensitivity is all that counts in my book.

You are right...

I plaid guilty , i an speaking too much...

But dont threw the baby with the muddy waters...

The content of my post " are more than the wind of my own voice"..

Then i apologize to you because you are right about my attitude sometimes, but dont claim that my posts are useless for all here...it will not be true....

Good information can come even through my "egocentric" rant... So to speak... Judge me yes, but think about what i suggest too...

If it is over your head, then remain silent like these days in your office when you were silent in front of the insulting egocentric maniac who was speaking non sense......I dont speak non sense even if i am perhaps in a way an egocentric maniac..

i like truth...

You are right and i apologize...

i will try to take less space but this does not means you must stay without thinking when thinking matter present to you...

I like to set the hour straight...

+1000 @mapman @russ69

reminds me back in my corporate world days, some blowhards in meetings never cease talking, as if the sound of their own voice is the only music they like to hear

when they are (rarely) silent, you quickly realize they aren’t listening, they’re just reloading...

🙄

 

...and all has been a better read than another cable quarrel. ;) *S*

@optimize  “Have you done the experiment that you go to ASR and look up the WORST measuring power amplifier that Amir has measured.”

+1

That is an excellent idea! I believe my best system is somewhere in the middle range of all this currently and it would be a heck of a lot easier  and cheaper to find out where the bottom is then the top. I currently own four different systems that are made with components that I have tried to select representing different styles and technologies of sound reproduction. One system is a 1970s Kenwood KR1400 10 watt per channel receiver and 1970s acoustic research 2ax speakers and at the upper end of my investment is a First Watt f6 and Kef ls50s and 3 Syzygy subwoofers. There are differences for sure but they tend to be more of flavor than absolute quality. I find I can enjoy music a lot on all my systems! Moving from one to the other is the sort of education that you suggest. For me it is what this hobby is really all about, 

I do things that you purposely shouldn’t do like pairing that receiver with power-hungry speakers like the acoustic researches. Just to see how bad it can be. And you know what it usually isn’t so bad.

@asvjerry +1

When you have a spare weekend, 64 pages on the shortcomings of ASR.

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/audio-science-review-review.9827/

@mahgister - in fact, mahgister, I get a lot from your posts, especially if they’re nothing to do with music and listening! Which is not the case in this post, because your posts have every single thing to do with the issues being debated, even if they seem more laid to rest with atmasphere's last post in this thread, regarding his belief in the current somewhat conclusive state of acoustic measurements. I believe what you were trying to draw everyone’s attention to has to do with the absolutely subtle mystery of the things in life we think we have figured out. The world of numbers is simply as exacting as it should get, and yet….

It often seems to me, the deeper I get into the understanding of something, and the clearer it gets, the more nuance I begin to become aware of, together with the awareness of how little I actually know, pushing me to attempt fresh understanding in different ways.

But there is something i do know - a link you will like very much… ; )

It eloquently speaks about the wonderfully nuanced and unbelievable world of unknowing the way we know it : )

 

In friendship - kevin 

@mahgister - in fact, mahgister, I get a lot from your posts, especially if they’re nothing to do with music and listening! Which is not the case in this post, because your posts have every single thing to do with the issues being debated, even if they seem more laid to rest with atmasphere’s last post in this thread, regarding his belief in the current somewhat conclusive state of acoustic measurements. I believe what you were trying to draw everyone’s attention to has to do with the absolutely subtle mystery of the things in life we think we have figured out. The world of numbers is simply as exacting as it should get, and yet….

It often seems to me, the deeper I get into the understanding of something, and the clearer it gets, the more nuance I begin to become aware of, together with the awareness of how little I actually know, pushing me to attempt fresh understanding in different ways.

But there is something i do know - a link you will like very much… ; )

It eloquently speaks about the wonderfully nuanced and unbelievable world of unknowing the way we know it : )

 

In friendship - kevin

Thanks it feel good to be understood...

Yes this problem, the Collatz conjecture, is so simple, the simple to state there is but with no proof...

But Paul Erdos once said "Mathematics is not yet ready for such problems".

 

Mathematical meditation disconnect us from what we think we know...

We know what we need to know for living and walking and eating...

But what we need to know is loosing our "knowing" to be able to know anew...

We dont know what is sound, hearing, and music ....

Consciousness is music say Anirban Bandyopadhyay ...

Time itself is music say Alain Connes...

Our outer ear double spiral is the staircase to heaven...

Our ear ’s spiralling cochlea is the door to heaven....

Prime distribution and musical scale are spiralling  non commutative phenomemon like time is at his roots...

I bought an interesting   book years ago the title was " What is a spiral"?

A so complex object defined in all mathematics in different perspectives, so much so, that the border between what is a spiral and what is not is escaping us...

 

 

@jjss49-

                                                        +ONE!

reminds me back in my corporate world days, some blowhards in meetings never cease talking, as if the sound of their own voice is the only music they like to hear

when they are (rarely) silent, you quickly realize they aren’t listening, they’re just reloading...

                                                         MAKE

                                                          1984

                                                        FICTION

                                                          AGAIN 

Maybe the problem is not a math problem and that is the difficulty. Maybe it is as simple as realizing that because you are applying a decision based algorithm, something math is poor at representing, that a "solution" simply does not exist in the realm of mathematics. The starting numbers are not "numbers" but representations or placeholders for the set of numbers that will result from applying the algorithm. Every time you make a decision on even/odd, you are throwing away information. That knowledge does not carry to the next step, therefore you can never go backwards, only forwards.

Maybe the problem is not a math problem and that is the difficulty.

Great post! thanks...

Especially that part:

Every time you make a decision on even/odd, you are throwing away information. That knowledge does not carry to the next step, therefore you can never go backwards, only forwards.

You are right....Then we need a new theory of information which basis are explained in the Indian scientist book...And a new way to do non Turing mathematic....

Hearing is not explained by being the solution of a mathematical problem in the usual sense of the word..,

It is not even the result of a decision based algorithm, there is no linear Turing computing here in the brain/ear, but more an integrated chain of non excluding choices converging without rejecting anything, but more integrating everything , like a "resonating" tree of which we consciously perceive only some leafs... Sound/silence is already meaning not mere sound...

All the book of Anirban Bandyopadhyay is a reflection about that and an explanation i cannot resume save with a few metaphors...

I cannot resume that here...

Read this page:

https://nanobraintech.com/about/

 

My goal are not to explain sound or hearing, only to point to something which cannot be understood with the objective/subjective external usual border ... Meaning is neither objective nor subjective and sound is already meaning...

Music is the meaning of this meaning....

 

By the way it is comical but also tragic to see grown men acting like children in a schoolyard, and instead of giving arguments, giving a gift approval point to someone they approve because he just insult or denigrate someone else instead of answering or discussing ...Inmates act like that too...Sheeps, children or mature, are sheeps...They feel better in a group where thinking is replaced by gestures...Before we were men, long time ago, we were apes without thinking smiles nor language...

Many people speak exactly like that all around the world right now, the gestures are only a propaganda sign conditioned system, they all obey it...

The conditioning by facebook tweeter, etc, instead of stimulating thinking, put people in the gestures labelling zoo....

 

It is life... 😁😊

 

By the way it is comical but also tragic to see grown men acting like children in a schoolyard, and instead of giving arguments, giving a gift approval point to someone they approve because he just insult or denigrate someone else instead of answering or discussing ...Inmates act like that too...Sheeps, children or mature, are sheeps...They feel better in a group where thinking is replaced by gestures...Before we were men, long time ago, we were apes without thinking smiles nor language...

Many people speak exactly like that all around the world right now, the gestures are only a propaganda sign conditioned system, they all obey it...

The conditioning by facebook tweeter, etc, instead of stimulating thinking, put people in the gestures labelling zoo....

 

It is life... 😁😊

But we could agree on what makes a denigrating post and then track whether posts are becoming more or less civil over time.

So much like the topic of the thread, that could be measured.

Right now we have feelings and magic.

• Feelings and emotions for the music.
• Feelings and emotion for the arguments and posts.
• And the magic of earth and cosmic vibrations.
• Versus trhe magic of strings and wood wind vibrations.

Might as well keep it going.

Does it mean that your ears are better than anything else on this earth

I don't think so.

Does it mean you have golden ears

Probably not but I might be a better listener than average.

Does it mean your experiences are greater than anyone elses

I Probably have more experience than average, less than some in the industry.  

Does it mean that your are the only one that needs to like what you hear

Well, I try to please me, I don't care about what others might like.

Does it mean that your hearing is better than any messurment device

My interpretation of what I hear might be better than a raw measurement, yes. 

Have you done the experiment that you go to ASR and look up the WORST measuring power amplifier that Amir has measured.

I'm pretty sure that is why I started this thread. 

@russ69 Your problem was reading a review by Amir.

@agisthos  Your problem was reading a review by Amir.

Yes ASR and AVS forums are no place for people that like to advance their systems. They say buy a AVR, a pair of 200 buck bookshelf speakers and you are at the state of the art. If you hear differences in gear, you are dilutional, biased,  and wasting money. They are not advancing the hobby.