I don't want to beat a dead horse but I'm bugged.

IMO a well designed amplifier should both measure well and sound good.

But what if it doesn't? If it sounds good but the measurements are not great, what is wrong? What we hear or what we measure?

@mahgister ​​​​​@deludedaudiophile  OP here. Let's give some others a chance to chime in. You must have said everything that needs to be said by now. Thanx. 

This problem of audiophiles living their lives according to how things were 30-40 years ago has caused a lot of suffering (and to be clear, when people have made up stories about life and life does not agree with those stories, that is the source of all human suffering). Back then, if the manufacturer, distributor or dealer's lips were moving, he was lying 

I go back to the 60s, thank you very much. I'm not sure where you are shopping but there is no incentive to have a disappointed customer unless you are selling speakers out the back of a white van. A good dealer will help you on your journey through the maze of possible choices. You probably need to shop at better stores if you think you are being lied to and being sold "snake oil".  

can I surmise with some accuracy that high output resistance of the average tube amplifier compared to the average solid state amplifier with typical speakers will be the dominant contributor to "sonic signature". 

Amp and speaker interaction cannot be simulated in lab amplifier measurements. Most all loudspeakers vary dramatically in load to an amp. Testing the amp and speaker separately is not an accurate measurement of how the components work together. Some speculation can be made sometimes but not always. So the method used is measuring with a simulated 4 ohm load and a simulated 8 ohm load but that is not how the system is operating.  

My post goal is to motivate people to think before throwing money...Especially nowadays...

That brings me to another point about the products reviewed by ASR and their ilk. Why the obsession with what other people spend on gear and their insistence that anything over $1500 is just wasted money? 

I understand the desire, need and validity of objective inquiry...

Thanx, that helps.

Just for entertainment purposes, here are two opinions of measurements with different conclusions.  

John Atkinson: Rogue Audio's Sphinx offers excellent measured performance with little sign of the usual compromises made in class-D designs. 

As a line-level integrated amplifier and headphone amplifier, the Sphinx V3 continues the high standard set by the original. 

And From Amir at ASR: Perfect marketing, poor engineering. Story of high-end audio.

Needless to say, I can NOT recommend the Rogue Audio Sphinx V3.

I don't think anything can make it worse than -66.1db.

Not sure you are interested but the spuriae (peaks at certain frequencies) make the average number look worse than it is. You are just looking at the raw number and that isn't telling the whole story.

Several users noting noise issues

Links please.

So as far as the designer is concerned, the listening part is almost academic nowadays.

I think that is the way mass market audio is designed. It is designed to a cost bracket and a specification requirement. But I understand for quality audio gear that is only the starting point and extensive listening tests are conducted and the component values are changed not to perfect the specifications but to make the product sound right. And that is where the two camps diverge. One camp thinks they are finished after the measurements take place and the other camp starts going to work after that point. 

So, I head over to AVS and read Amir's review

the website known as ASR and Amir himself

My bad, I am referring to ASR not AVS but they are both of the same ilk. 

Why does Amir's opinion matter so much?

Trust me when I say Amir's opinion does not matter to me at all, it carries zero weight for me. What this thread is about is trying to understand the mind set of people that only rely on measurements and not the sound of audio gear. However, thanx for posting and stimulating the conversation. I welcome all input.

That quote you made from Stereophile is from the 2014 review not what ASR reviewed.

The first quote is the V1 version which supports the second quote for the V3 version. Both experts measured the Spinx V3 and I think got comparable results.

Stereophile tests appear to show high noise one phono input...

Yes, it is highlighted that the MM phono output was noisy. The MC output was not. Probably still has more channel separation and dynamic range than the record you are playing. 

Stereophile tests appear to show ... high power supply noise...

Also mentioned but it's 80 and 90 db down, you are not going to hear it. 

... and does not meet 4 ohm power spec. 

Rogue does not specify a 4ohm power spec. They say 100wpc minimum and don't specify the impedance. Atkinson measured 96watts at 8 ohms and 150watts at 4 ohms. You wont miss the 4db since it would take 200 watts to raise the sound level 3db.  

This is why you need to listen to gear. A few db may be important or they may not depending on what you are measuring. With noise levels down 80 and 90 db, you are not going to hear it. Sure 120 db is better but it's only a better measurement number not something that will ruin playback. That's why Atkinson explains what the numbers mean and their effect on sound quality. ASR skips that step. 

This this ridiculous because all outputs should be measured at their normal output levels, not attenuated.

As a measurement standard most amps are measured at full power. That is where they perform the best in most cases. Although we don't listen at full volume, the measurements would make more sense if they were at a realistic level but you can't compare amps if you are setting output to some arbitrary level. 

When it suits you you will claim -80db is not audible... I expect at high volume in quiet passages it may be...

You would be totally wrong. If I heard any noise I would freak out. All my gear is dead quiet, I work hard to make sure it is. If it’s not dead quiet it gets repaired or returned. I hear zero noise from my Sphinx V3. 80 db were the peaks at certain low frequencies (Class D issues), but most of the noise was minus 100 db.

Those are peaks.

Yes, that is db down, it gets better from there.

This was primarily due to full-wave–rectified, supply-related spuriae .

In other words, peaks or spikes that make the measurement seem worse than it is. In this case low frequency spuriae due to class D design. No reviewer, and I must have read a dozen reviews heard any issues in the lower frequencies, nor do I. We can go all night on this. Do you own or have you heard the Sphinx V3? No mater, either has Amir.

we can move on from poorly measuring equipment regardless of how it sounds?

Back in the day amps strived for THD of .001. You can achieve that number by adding negative feedback, sometimes lots of negative feedback. But it turns out that amps sound better if negative feedback is reduced or eliminated. Just one example of a measurement that hurts sonic performance. 

people are emotionally attached to their purchases

I have lots of gear, no emotional attachment at all. It either does the job or it doesn't. I currently run 7 complete systems, the gear that doesn't cut it goes out to the garage system. I have a pair of Stereophile magazine class A rated speakers in the garage, they weren't cutting it so they were banished. Although I don't necessarily disagree with you. 

 I believe audiophiles should not have to accept poorly measuring equipment.  

Thanks for posting. This thread was designed to help me understand people that rely on measurements above what they hear. You make a good point but if an amp or whatever sounds good even though it has measurements different than some other amps is that amp no good? Should it be dismissed without listening? Are we measuring the right things?  Is looking at .01% difference important? Is distortion that is not audible important? We don't prefer distortion, we just don't think inaudible distortion is important.  Are we wrong? 

that's why tubes still exist, to make it sound more like real music.

That is way more than most people can understand but that is exactly the point of this hobby. 

However, the upper shelf designers seem to make stuff that does not require cabels

Show me just one audio electronic manufacturer that doesn't use aftermarket cables to demo their gear.

I personally would not trust user listening tests unless they don't know what they are listening to. The potential to fool ourselves is too high.

I wish I could be fooled into believing a system sounds good when it sounds bad. I'd save a lot of time or money. It's easy to "fool" oneself on a blind or short-term listening session. That is why the gold standard is long term evaluation. It's very hard to convince yourself somethings sounds good after you have experienced all it's flaws. 

And realistically the dealer, and more to the point… salesmen, have a low track record for trustworthiness.

My first dealer, Walt at Woodland stereo always made sure I went home with the right stuff. He helped Arnie Nudel with his first loudspeaker the Servo Statik. Walt had the best sound of any SoCal audio shop. Many years later I was dealing with Kevin Deal, he has a good ear and I just have to tell him what direction I want to go in and he gets me there. If you haven't found someone that is on your wavelength, keep looking around and going to shops until you find that person. 

we can simulate/model how that will change the frequency response. 

I seem to have an attraction to hard to drive loudspeakers. Some with wild impedance swings and nasty phase shifts. I had one amp that totally rejected one frequency with one loudspeaker and a switch to another amp proved there was not a speaker issue (other being hard to drive). Not sure you can simulate that without using the loudspeaker. 

Tube equipment won’t spec as well as transistor.

It seems Amir does not make any concessions to design type, where as Stereophile makes comparisons to similar designs, not chalk and cheese. If the piece under test doesn’t measure as well as an A/B Solid State amp with some solid feedback, it fails and doesn’t even deserve a listen. The vast number of high-end tube equipment on the market must suggest that many like the way tube gear sounds in no compromise systems.

We want to try and understand this divide, do we not?

@teo_audio Probably the best post in this thread. 

about these very new research if no one give a dam for sure...

What surprises me is that someone has a dam to give. Is it a big dam or a little dam? If it's big, damn. 

Do you need to control what you want to hear? Or  are you open to discussion?

Please keep posting. I quit reading some pages back, pretty sure everyone else has also. I appreciate all your input but you lost your audience I think. 

Might as well keep it going.

Does it mean that your ears are better than anything else on this earth

I don't think so.

Does it mean you have golden ears

Probably not but I might be a better listener than average.

Does it mean your experiences are greater than anyone elses

I Probably have more experience than average, less than some in the industry.  

Does it mean that your are the only one that needs to like what you hear

Well, I try to please me, I don't care about what others might like.

Does it mean that your hearing is better than any messurment device

My interpretation of what I hear might be better than a raw measurement, yes. 

Have you done the experiment that you go to ASR and look up the WORST measuring power amplifier that Amir has measured.

I'm pretty sure that is why I started this thread. 

@agisthos  Your problem was reading a review by Amir.

Yes ASR and AVS forums are no place for people that like to advance their systems. They say buy a AVR, a pair of 200 buck bookshelf speakers and you are at the state of the art. If you hear differences in gear, you are dilutional, biased,  and wasting money. They are not advancing the hobby.