How to meaningfully audition speakers??

Liz, didn;t realize the term "live music" was open to so much debate and qualifications. If its live guys playing and its not a recording, however they do it and whatever tools they choose, electronic or otherwise, isn't that "live"? What is it otherwise if not? Not a recording. Music of the "undead" maybe? I consider a guy playing sounds on a synthesizer live as well, as long as its not a machine doing it. That's just me...:^)

"Indeed, but what about my Winebago idea?"

Way to think "out of the box" !! I like it.

Indeed, but what about my Winebago idea?

Wolf, Can I purchase a ticket to your concert?
Make sure I will have enough time to run to dealer with my earplugs to audition speakers :)))

Wolf, for example, in recent years I have attended live events at Meyerhoff Symphony Hall, Carnegie Hall, Rams HEad live in Annapolis Maryland, and Fedex field in DC all of which had excellent sound that I found to be useful as a reference myself. Also the occasional local band in a nearby unknown pub.

I am a paying customer only, so I only get to do it a few times a year, not on a regular basis. I suspect that there is overkill at some point in terms of how often listening to live music is actually useful as an ear training experience, but I think it is up until the point where the ears become well trained already as a result.

Also lots of events mostly in other venues that were more examples of bad rather than good sound.

All these experiences have helped me to be able to recognize what good sound is, at least to me, as well as bad. All useful training for my ears.

I listen to live music as a sound mixer (and as merely another unimportant little audience member) often, and play live music every day as a musician and pretend "bon vivant." I beg to differ about this "live music" requirement for home audio "reference" as I think the home is so absolutely different than any venue (except my home which has been used as a venue for "house concerts"....but still), it's sort of a meaningless thing...unless the hapless speaker shopper has NEVER heard music, in which case there are other, more personal issues at hand (the need to get out more, deafness, a mental disorder that renders the victim "opinionless"). You could do this: If you want to see what a piano really sounds like, go to a Steinway dealer and have them hold you over the open piano with your head facing down onto the sound board while somebody plays the thing, and afterwards put earplugs in and hurry over to a High End dealer and plunk in front of speakers (remember to remove the earplugs). This won't work, but it could be fun. I still think my "living room replicating Winnabago" idea is the way to go, or simply read reviews, listen to speakers someplace, go to Carnegie Hall when the strike ends if only to support live stuff, buy something and if it sucks sell it and get something else. See? All better now.

Frog,

Thanks for pointing out the value of listening to all kinds of live music in all kinds of venues as a means of establishing a reference for what music can and does sound like.

I realized after posting that I missed that important aspect of "establishing a reference", which is the most important first step. Without a reference to shoot for, you cannot POSSIBLY hit the target.

Live music even more so than hifi will demonstrate how different things can sound based on things like venue, acoustics, sound mix, listening position relative to performance, etc.

IT really helps set some useful reference points. Then you also realize how different each event sounds and all that goes into that.

Also, and most importantly, you will gain an understanding of what different events that sound good have in common. That provides the reference information needed to now attempt to achieve similar results at home, where quality and nature of sound will also vary based on room acoustics, gear assembled starting with speakers, listening position and most importantly, recording to recording.

When you get to a point where it does not matter much what recording you play because most all recordings in good condition sounds good (not always perfect but engaging in a different way each time), that is probably where one seeking the "ultimate sound" wants to find themselves. You'll know when you have to pry yourself away from listening, rather than the sound chasing you away prematurely.

It may take some time but does not have to cost a fortune in many cases, at least in the end, if done one step at a time, starting with the right speakers for your unique room and budget, and not too many dead end roads gone down in the process as a result of just trying to throw money at the problem.

a legitimate audition requires not only my own environment and equipment, but a good long period of time. No way a dealer could facilitate this, if the few places dealers still exist in an area near you. So you just have to take your best shot, buy something and live it with for while. Sell 'em and try something else, if you must. hence, Audiogon.

I like Mapman's suggestion. IF the sound of live is your goal, I would take Mapman's approach a step further. Listen to as much live music as possible leading up to the speaker audition date(s). Bite the bullet and don't worry about wether it's your favorite type of music or not, favorite venue, or even by good artists; it's not always possible, you are listening for the sound. The idea is to simply recalibrate your ears to what real music really sounds like; we tend to forget that in the pursuit of audiophile stuff. There are enough common threads in the sound of live music regardless of genre, venue, etc. that will become obvious the more you listen to it. Then when you listen to speakers the presence or absence of them will be much more obvious and you will have found your speaker. Good luck.

Elizabeth has some great points but when I went auditioning speakers I brought my my current speakers with me for a reference (monitors and stands). No dealer refused to let me bring my speakers in to compare. Actually they liked that idea. One dealer thanked me for not buying his speakers. I'll explain - I went to the shop and listened to his speakers and was very impressed. I came back a second time with my speakers and compared them side by side. Well I preferred my speakers overall. The reason he thanked me is because I would have bought those with a CC. He would order them and said because of his satisfaction guarantee he knows I wouldn't be happy with them after taking them home. He would take them back and be stuck with the CC charges and the speakers.

I agree it is a problem, but really for all other kit too, amps, CD players phono cartridges. Some excellent advice given already. The most important is to have CDs and LPs you know for a sound quality check. You have to know how they sound in your system first. Secondly, if you are going to a dealer, ask for kit as similar to yours in quality, as they can provide. There is no point auditioning with $100,000 monopblocks, if you use $5000 integrated.

Shows are a good place to start, because show conditions are so bad. If a speaker sounds good in show conditions, it must have smothing going for it.

You will find dealers who are prepared to loan speakers, especially if you are an old, trusted customer. Even then, new kit needs time to settle in and a weekend loan is too short.

You still have to settle in with them, and that could take a while...luckily there's so much info out there you can easily educate yourself about a lot of stuff, but you never know until you hook it all up at home (even if you live in the parallel universe of accessable hifi stores inhabited by Elizabeth). If you can exactly replicate your listening room in a large RV you can drive it all over and get stores to let you take things to the parking lot and hook 'em up (an extreme solution, but hey...). Anything I'm remotely interestd in I read all about and usually am happy with the results even if I can't audition something, although there have been a few unpleasant surprises.

I've bought speakers online after reading as much as I could about them and after auditioing at length with music I'm familiar with and there's really no comparison. You have to personally audition them.

Having said that, if there's a speaker you don't have access to and you really would like to hear it or something from their line, talk to the company and see if there is anyone near you who've bought a pair and maybe they can hook you up with a listen. I've done it once and it was a very nice experience and I ended up buying a pair online afterwards.

Good luck in your search.

All the best,
Nonoise

I think Mapman's advice makes a lot of sense too. And St114_nj, I posted a comment a little earlier that jives with what you said. Once one hits a certain level, incremental improvements require a lot more due diligence and effort. My comment also touched on incremental cost compared to benefits gained.

It gets tougher as one moves up the scale. Early in the process I made a large jump from B&W cm7 to the 802D which represented a nice improvement and was easy to hear. Now I couldn't audition at my home without hauling some big heavy speakers around. Something to be said for monitors.....

Find your reference sound by auditioning various good systems at dealers, shows, friends, whatever. Once you know your reference sound when you hear it, then you are in a position to try to replicate it. Can't achieve a goal until you know what it is.

Never judge a book by it's cover. If, for example, you've had bad experiences with planars or metal tweeters, or whatever, I'll guarantee that there's something out there that's going to surprise you.

Consider your room, placement of speakers and the amplifiers requirements of the speakers.

When you're comparing mediocre to mediocre, it can be difficult but listen to as much as you can, even if they're out of your budget, and when something outstanding shows up, regardless of the room or other equipment, you'll know immediately. Those kind of breakthrough moments, are memorable. Question becomes whether you can afford it now or sometime down the road.

Great post Liz. I like the way you summed it up: "And if you go and buy [the speakers] online to save a few bucks after using the store to audition. Then you are a bad person." I agree 100% with that view ... and that really is my dilemma. I try to be very straight with people ... just because ... And I think my member feedback reflects that approach.

Without going into specifics, I have a certain speaker in mind right now, say Speaker X. If bought used here on A'gon, I could probably pick up Speaker X for $5K less than discounted retail, which is roughly 35 to 40 percent less. There is no way I will plop myself in a B&M store for hours to check out speakers, with or without talking to a salesperson, and then buy on-line. Just not my style.

As an aside, I have communicated directly with a couple of reviewers who are familiar with my current rig and with Speaker X. The feedback is that Speaker X IS excellent, but the reviewers also said that so is what I already have. I might experience a different presentation, but it's hard to say whether I am stepping up or not.

In the end, I may just quench my curiosity and stay pat and enjoy what I have while my hearing holds out. If really that curious, the comment above about spending some time at a good audio show might be the way to go.

As another aside, IME, what I am finding is that significant improvements are coming at prices that are increasing at geometric rates in excess of what I perceive as the subjective improvements. For example, this may be audiophile heresy, but I just sprung for $4K (net of trade in/resale bucks) to step up from an ARC VS-115 tube amp to the much ballyhooed ARC Ref 150. Is the Ref 150 a better sounding amp. Yes ... I believe it is -- hands down. Is it worth $4K more??? That's a tough call. I certainly wouldn't give up on a necessity for the upgrade. But it is kinda cool to hear the difference. Yeah, it is!

Thanks all for the great comments. Kinda corroborates my thinking.

Bruce

Try to find a brand or designer you trust and start there.
Learn which crossover type you like (first order, infinite slope, etc.), driver material, cabinet material.
Go to shows (Rocky Mountain fest is soon) where you can spend lots of time listening.
Lastly, have some recordings you know well to check for things you care about (deep bass? clean treble?).
The bottom line is: You may have to make many purchases before you find your sonic soul-mate.

The best way, of course, is to audition the speakers in your environment. If you have the funds, time, etc. you might consider buying (used) each of the speakers you are most interested in and then auditioning them side by side at home.

Once you've identified the best of the lot, sell the others (perhaps at a small loss) and live happily ever after...

-RW-

for this you need good microphone or good acoustic transducer(or few), good recorder(or multi-track... teac 4-track r2r is one of the great examples), good player, good room and possibly good amplifier. in addition you'll need a musical instrument that you're going to record. good ones to test are trumpet, sax, guitar, double-bass and certainly piano. you'll also need monitor headphones to adjust proper recording level when you test your instrument.

1. record any instrument handy(i'd use 15ips speed of recording on r2r gear)
2. adjust volume of amp to the same level as volume of your live instrument
3. play it through the speakers and analyze the difference.
4. if the difference minimal the speakers are good.

One of the best things I ever did was go to the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest where I could walk from room to room and hear all kinds of equipment and setups and ask questions about them. They may not have your exact setup, but there will be tons of things that you can get a good idea of in a couple days.

The best way to audition speakers in your home but like you said there are very few dealer or speaker manufacturers who would allow you to do that. I honestly will go through various forums, read reviews on speakers I'm interested in and if there are enough positive reviews I buy them. I'm also hoping and a praying that my results are like what I've read. If not then I re-sell at a loss. I think in this day and age that is the only way to go unless there is an audio society/club where you live and maybe you can audition different speakers there.

Buy, Try and Re-sell after some time is what I've had to follow.

There have been times I've gone to B&M stores and brought music I like to audition speakers. Other times I've worked with the associates to give them details about my listening area so we can try to simulate it in their demo room. Even then the music won't sound exactly the same with my gear in my room.

I think this is very tough. I looked at reviews and comments on the asylum, audio circle, here and audio karma.

I also bought used so if they didnt work out i could sell them and not take a big loss (i actually sold one pair for more than i paid :)

So I went from BW to Triangle to Ref 3A de Capos all unheard

This happens to me all the time in the area I live in.
I have to rely on reading as many reviews as possible and emails with people that have the speakers in question.
Not the best way to do it but that's the best I can do, although I have traveled to other states to hear speakers but as you already know any speaker can and probably will sound different in my home with my equipment.